Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 5/31/2009 2:06:09 PM EST
I haven't made a good gun-related post here in the MO forums for awhile, so lets give this old standby a try. Vote in the poll, then explain your position below. Pics, anecdotes and arguments all encouraged.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 2:11:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 2:14:57 PM EST by rmdye]
umm, have to go the 590. i need to get one since i am shotgun less at the moment.

m4 would be my second choice if i didnt want to spend a arm and a leg.


didnt see your poll bud.

Ronald

edit:
got the poll now. different direction than i was thinking.

i think they still serve a purpose but a p90 would also serve in those support roles.

but what do i know i am a aging,balding, fat guy that has no real world experience in this matter
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 2:13:06 PM EST
Refresh, its up now. Gonna edit my first post after awhile to give my opinion, but first I want to see what others think.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 2:23:15 PM EST
Guns make me nervous....

I think the Combat Shotgun has a place, you won't see me carrying one in the jungle or the desert but in an urban location sure.

What do I use? Mossberg 590 Pump. haven't found a need for anything different. Versatile too.

Breaching, up close and personal during an entry, out to 100+ yards with slugs.

Only really a couple things that it can do that my good ol' M4 can't...

A whole lot more that my M4 can accomplish that the Shotgun can't.
So bottom line, a combat shotgun will remain in my inventory.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 2:25:34 PM EST
I feel for PD, shotguns are highly underrated. It's one of the few weapons that is simple to train with, and easy to teach.
My wife is quite gun capable, but when it comes to defending life and limb, we focus on the Shotty, as front line HD. I believe my biggest mistake, is mine is a Pump(Mossberg 500 in a Speedfeed Tac4 stock) My primary duty weapon was a Mossberg(Navy), nothing says GET THE F*** out like a shotgun. When loaded properly, it is always a better weapon than a combat handgun. Although large, and a bit "unwieldy" they harness a large amount of firepower.

Most offerings today, are at least 6+1, plus the Tac-Star attatchments. I often think, America is caught up in the "Tactical Me-Too" syndrome, where everybody has a "tactical" gun, just because a buddy has one. Often times forgetting the root purpose of a gun is. But at the end of the day, just how much can you trick up a "close in" shotgun. There never as cool as other weapons.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 2:45:00 PM EST
Don't have one and don't plan on getting one.

If I were to get one I believe that it would be a FN police semi auto. I fired one of these at the old shoots at Fire For Effect range about 2-3 years ago and was quite impressed.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 2:52:13 PM EST
I have to go with my Sage International Sidewinder (No longer manufactured)





But if I was going to purchase one today:



Or the CMMG 12 ga.

PursuitSS
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 3:06:15 PM EST
Underrated and more effective than people realize.

There is a good reason they are commonly referred to as a Riot Gun. They are great for close range area targets (crowds or zombies) and they are super for very close range man sized targets. Not to mention they are great for defeating close range cover like walls, doors, and automobiles. Used properly it is a very effective weapon in many different environments.

Link Posted: 5/31/2009 3:14:29 PM EST
Is that a saiga shotty? I love the stock, never seen anything but plastic on them
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 3:59:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By beltfedMGs:
Is that a saiga shotty? I love the stock, never seen anything but plastic on them


That is a Saiga with numerous modifications by Dinzag Arms

PursuitSS
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 4:11:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 4:12:29 PM EST by BBoyd]
I love shotguns AND there is still plenty of ammo on the shelves
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 4:36:28 PM EST
They have their place just like anything else. I go with the shotgun for high risk vehicle stops and some other stuff at work, but If im going to be mobile im going to go with a rifle. Like anything else adapt the gear to fit your mission not the other way around.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 4:48:30 PM EST
Definitely underrated. Here's my favorite. It's my Tromix 8 inch. I like it so much Tony is building me another, almost exactly the same.




I also like this one, Tony built it, but isn't presently doing this right now. I've got the double in 30-06, maybe it'll be cool to SBR it instead. It's a Baikal.

Link Posted: 5/31/2009 5:07:47 PM EST
Only good for home defense

It was a tough decision. IMHO, there is really no other choice for home defense. A pistol, unless in the hands of a well trained individual, is asking a lot of the user. And unless you are damn near point blank, requires a hefty amount of aiming. Carbine, is a very close second to the shotty. Still requires a good amount of aiming. I make a huge differentiation between aiming and pointing. CQB, should be a little bit of aiming, and a lot of pointing. Pointing with any gun OTHER than a shotgun, takes a lot of practice.

All that being said, are they underrated? I still see them in police cruisers....recently next to AR15's. Still being trained in the Army I'm certain.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 5:36:55 PM EST
I still get a kick out of the recent trend to put a breaching attachment on a shotgun and then bill it as a "home defense" gun.

Anyone else see a problem with this, or am I letting reality get in the way when anything "tactical" is vastly superior?

Link Posted: 5/31/2009 5:53:52 PM EST
I hope you aren't suggesting that my Tromix with the breaching brake is something I would suggest for home defense. It wasn't purchased for that reason and i wouldn't use it for that reason. It does make a good all around NFA fun gun.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 6:12:36 PM EST
Underrated and more effective than people realize.

In years past this would not even be close IMHO.

Just plain versatile weapons depending on the choice of loads.

Mine is a Win1300 black shadow 22". Could use a mag tube extension though if anyone has one laying around.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 6:23:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
Only good for home defense

It was a tough decision. IMHO, there is really no other choice for home defense. A pistol, unless in the hands of a well trained individual, is asking a lot of the user. And unless you are damn near point blank, requires a hefty amount of aiming. Carbine, is a very close second to the shotty. Still requires a good amount of aiming. I make a huge differentiation between aiming and pointing. CQB, should be a little bit of aiming, and a lot of pointing. Pointing with any gun OTHER than a shotgun, takes a lot of practice.

All that being said, are they underrated? I still see them in police cruisers....recently next to AR15's. Still being trained in the Army I'm certain.


I have to STRONGLY disagree, if there is ANY chance of collateral damage a shotgun is not the weapon of choice! Drywall barely slows it down. That is why I use an AR loaded with Hornaday .40 grain TAP Urban .223 at 3800 fps. It literally EXPLODES on drywall.



The Hornady® 223 Rem. 40 gr. TAP Urban® offers high velocity and reliable functioning even in shorter barreled firearms. It offers nearly instant expansion, complete fragmentation and little to no retained weight making it ideal for situations where collateral risk potential is high(entry teams, correctional facilities etc). It should be noted that this bullet is not an ideal choice when barrier performance is needed.





Intended for use in a 1-7"-1-12" twist barrel.
Performs optimally in a 1-12" twist.

*All 223 ballistics gelatin shots were taken from 30 feet.*

PursuitSS
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 6:24:52 PM EST
I'm another scatter gun fan. For practicality everyone should have one, and if you only have one gun it would make a good one. From Birds to deer you've got a hunting weapon, in the wrong situation it is just about the easiest thing to point and pull on a badguy shaking matters not.
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 7:54:28 PM EST
I'm inclined to reach for my rifle or my pistol long before my shotgun. Shotgun's long heavy, difficult to load under stress, pistol and carbine both load much easier and are smaller and easier to move around tight quarters.

Although, the multiple projectile capability of the shotgun is appealing for some situations that come to mind.

PTK
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 8:27:10 PM EST
point and pull understress is a great plus for me i shake when deer huntin i cant imagine how bad i would be shakin if it were a human on the other end of the sights.
shot guns are big heavy and hard to maneuver compaired to a pistol
so my solution a judge with #4s (cant find 00) and a mossy 500 with TAP
the judge should slow them down long enough to get the mossy in position
Link Posted: 5/31/2009 9:31:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By beltfedMGs:
Is that a saiga shotty? I love the stock, never seen anything but plastic on them


That is a Saiga with numerous modifications by Dinzag Arms

PursuitSS


Danzig modifies Saiga shotguns...F*CKING COOL!!!






Darn, It's Dinzag...



Link Posted: 6/1/2009 1:18:18 AM EST
A niche weapon.
It has it's place but is not the end all of weapons.

Breaching and maybe CQB but that is about all I can think of.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 4:07:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2009 4:09:14 AM EST by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 5:42:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By v188:
I hope you aren't suggesting that my Tromix with the breaching brake is something I would suggest for home defense.

No - I wasn't poking fun at anyone here in particular.

Actually what I was thinking of, a month or two back I saw an ad for a local sporting goods store selling a pistol-gripped Mossberg with a breacher on the end. The gun was specifically marketed as a "home defense gun". If I could find the ad I'd post it. It made me laugh in any case. Especially because they were selling it for $60 more than the, otherwise identical, non-breaching model.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 6:56:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2009 6:58:02 AM EST by jhuggans]
I have only patterned one shotgun and that was an over-under that I use primarily for skeet and sporting clays. I take my M1S90 to the skeet range too. I figure any practice is better than none. I also take it to ranges that allow and shoot slugs. I feel very comfortable in my position on shotguns.

I'm not saying that the projectiles are going to open up to a man sized pattern, I am saying that there is a HUGE fudge factor that you're given when you shoot a shotgun with Buckshot. I would even say that @ 10 yards, 00 buckshot will open up to about 4 - 5". In my shotgun, I use 01 buckshot...I need the extras.

Oh...and here is a video that backs my claim:
7 or 10 yards, 00 buckshot, modified choke

That is with a longer barrel (26") and a modified (tighter) choke.

ETA: I only aim when I'm shooting slugs. Never...ever...ever aim with a shotgun....point that SOB at what you want to hit...lead as necessary.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 8:14:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2009 8:17:09 AM EST by all4freedom]
At short range, the shotgun is a great weapon for defense. If I were in the situation where I needed one and could by some form of magic have one appear in my hands, I would be glad I had it. Since I might not know what ranges I will need it at (say outside of the home) the carbine would be my choice. Shotguns are devestating at short range but beyond that they are generally heavy and have low capacity. Sure with slugs, the shotgun can be extended far beyond 50 yards but if I were leaving the house, a rifle would most likely be my preference.

While they are underated (which is probably the best poll option) I voted for HD use, because that's where they would fit in for me personally.

I need to do some more shotgun training, maybe I'll change my mind.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 8:18:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2009 8:21:05 AM EST by AFSOC]
Originally Posted By jhuggansNever...ever...ever aim with a shotgun....point that SOB at what you want to hit...lead as necessary.


Ahem....

Link Posted: 6/1/2009 9:52:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By BBoyd:
I love shotguns AND there is still plenty of ammo on the shelves


If you want birdshot. I've not seen buckshot in stock at Wal-Mart for over six months, and even before November you were lucky to find any. Slugs, well, if you want to pay $5/round for hunting slugs, go ahead.


Link Posted: 6/1/2009 10:10:21 AM EST
I haven't read all the posts in this section, but here is my take on the shotgun.

To me, it is a primary offensive weapon in CQB or short range (15 yards or less). If I really want to put someone down and fast, I want a weapon that is going to provide maximum devestation with one pull of the trigger.

As an entry weapon, I often went with the scatter gun because I knew that if I shot someone with that gun, the fight would be over. If I needed to transition to another weapon, sidearm is ready. Sure, I could stitch someone with my MG, but there is a better chance of terminal ballistics () with a shotgun.

Another advantage to it, and I know that others will argue with me, but in an LEO setting, it also allowed me to transition to a less than leathal option as well (bean bags or rubber balls) if the situation dictated it.

That is just my take on it.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 10:48:55 AM EST
I think it is still a viable tool for close combat but anything over 75 yards I would prefer to have a rifle
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 10:57:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By jhuggansNever...ever...ever aim with a shotgun....point that SOB at what you want to hit...lead as necessary.


Ahem....



AFSOC, let me rephrase that for you.


WTF?
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 11:46:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 11:55:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 12:17:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2009 12:18:45 PM EST by jhuggans]
Are you telling me you aim your shotguns? LIke...take the little bead and put it on something? Really?
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 12:42:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
Are you telling me you aim your shotguns? LIke...take the little bead and put it on something? Really?








I hope you are joking here...
This is one of the wives tales of shotguns that has been around for ages "You don't got to use no sights, just point and BLAM!!!"

in other words.

HELL YES I USE THE FREAKING SIGHTS!!!!

Actually I do use the sights on everything.
am I capable of shooting without sights? Oh yeah, instinctive shooting "reflexive fire" whatever you wish to call it, and am quite adept at it.
Do I recommend it? Well if the situation dictates that you should use this technique SOMETHING, has gone terribly terribly wrong... But it is good to know when that time comes what you are capable of!

my 590 has a bead and groove... I use the sights such as they are and I use those sights to pretty good effect out to 150M standing off hand with slugs, I have never had the opportunity to try further with slugs.

I have never subscribed to "spray and pray doctrine" Suppression is done with well aimed fire albeit rapidly...
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 1:23:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
ETA: I only aim when I'm shooting slugs. Never...ever...ever aim with a shotgun....point that SOB at what you want to hit...lead as necessary.


Slugs, you have to aim, no doubt about it...single projectile...treat it like a rifle.
Birdshot/buckshot, both eyes open, focused on the target, gun firm against the shoulder and good cheek weld. If you are looking at your sights, then you're not looking at your target.

In no way, is pointing a shot gun spray and pray.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 1:39:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2009 1:59:07 PM EST by AFSOC]
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
ETA: I only aim when I'm shooting slugs. Never...ever...ever aim with a shotgun....point that SOB at what you want to hit...lead as necessary.


Slugs, you have to aim, no doubt about it...single projectile...treat it like a rifle.
Birdshot/buckshot, both eyes open, focused on the target, gun firm against the shoulder and good cheek weld. If you are looking at your sights, then you're not looking at your target.

In no way, is pointing a shot gun spray and pray.


We are just getting worse here,
This is absolute stupidity, no soft way to say it I am afraid...

In no way, is pointing a shot gun spray and pray.

You are correct in NO WAY, Just the very definition of spray and pray... point and squeeze....

I need the extras.

I think maybe we have determined your problem!!!
Maybe if you used the sights you wouldn't need the extras... Your doctrine for running a shotgun is FUBAR....

Where in the fresh slice of hell did you come up with this garbage???
I mean no disrespect but DAMN DAMN DAMN!!!!!!

Thinking about this and it may be a bit harsh for that I do apologize

but what is concentrating on the target going to do? Will the pellets to hit it?

Aiming is what we do with firearms of all types...
Repeat after me class,

"We WILL use our sights"
"We WILL concentrate on our front Sight"
WE WILL HIT OUR TARGET THUSLY!!!"

I understand what you are doing, it is dead wrong but I do understand it, this is called "Point shooting" "instinctive shooting" "reflexive fire"
This is what you do when you don't have time to get the proper sight picture, it is what you do when everything has gone to hell in a handbasket.
You are getting out of a vehicle and suddenly have to engage targets close aboard and getting the weapon in the direction of your target is all you have time for... That is not a way to operate a weapon for any reason other than when it all went wrong!!!!

You are moving through your house at O-Dark Thirty and suddenly someone surprises you and brings a weapon toward you, not on target yet but moving there all you have time to do is swing your shotgun to the target, you lead with your eyes then bring the weapon to bear and snap off the shot without thinking... Yes it can work but unless you are dead calm in the face of your impending doom I would bet you will miss, at CQB distances your shot pattern will still be not much larger than your fist. you can EASILY miss. Chances are if our intruder has anything at all on the ball you will absorb a shot before he does... Probably contributing to your miss.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 1:58:25 PM EST
You're right, I've changed my mind. All those years of shooting skeet and sporting clays have been a waste. I apologize for wasting your time.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 3:59:03 PM EST
Great for home defense I load mine with bird shot. don't laugh my kids are on the opposite end of the house then me. As for mentioned at C.Q.B ranges the patter does not open up a hole lot but even then it does not penitrate more them 2 sheets of sheet rock. hints the kids are ok . But i would prefer my pistol but thats why I use the gun the situation calls for.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 4:04:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By gdp0341:
but even then it does not penitrate more them 2 sheets of sheet rock. .


I would set up my own "dog & pony show", and check out whether this is actually the case. I've never shot drywall but have heard that even bird shot will blow through both sides of a wall. I KNOW what .40 gn .223 Hornaday Tap URBAN will do, I've attended Law Enforcement demos where Hornaday shot drywall with it. VERY safe!

PursuitSS

Link Posted: 6/1/2009 4:16:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2009 4:18:06 PM EST by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 4:18:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
You're right, I've changed my mind. All those years of shooting skeet and sporting clays have been a waste. I apologize for wasting your time.


Not at all. It's great practice for when the zombie skeet and sporting clays invade your house at night and fly around the room taking hostages.


Holy crap that's happened to you too? I thought I was all alone.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 6:18:36 PM EST
HEY!!!!!

Duke Called.... He wants his thread back.
Link Posted: 6/1/2009 6:33:41 PM EST
Not really. I like this.

P.S. I'm an aimer, not a pointer. Even with shotguns. I'm a big fan of ghost rings.


Link Posted: 6/1/2009 6:47:01 PM EST
I want one of those mossbergs! Just so I can put a freaking bayonett on it I aim my shotguns too, even when I shoot clays...

PTK
Link Posted: 6/2/2009 3:24:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2009 3:32:27 AM EST by Chris_1522]
Link Posted: 6/2/2009 8:42:30 AM EST
Here are a couple of my favorite shotguns. I use the Benelli for home and the Tromix Saiga-12 for fun...it is a blast with the 10 rnd mags or the 20 rnd drum.














B&R Pictures
Link Posted: 6/2/2009 8:55:10 AM EST
Great.....more shotgun porn. That Tromix is even more bad ass, then Pursuits Saiga...maybe, hell i just need one bad.
Link Posted: 6/2/2009 5:19:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2009 5:28:52 PM EST by pit-sitter]



No, I don't own anything like this, nor do I advocate it.

I just felt this photo might be a fun addition to this thread.

I voted; "Underrated and more effective than people realize"

I really believe that if a fella could have only one firearm, a twelve gauge pump might be the best choice.

Link Posted: 6/2/2009 5:34:45 PM EST
Wow. Talk about Tacti-fail. Just wow.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top