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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/19/2005 3:15:48 PM EDT
From the AJC today:

Feds nab 15 on gun charges
Lawrenceville man among those arrested
John Ghirardini - Staff
Friday, August 19, 2005

Fifteen men from Georgia, Alabama and Kentucky have been arrested on charges of manufacturing or receiving unregistered submachine guns, federal authorities said Thursday.

An indictment, unsealed Wednesday, alleges that Michael Miller, 49, of Carrollton conspired with Lawrenceville resident Larry Bush, 50, and J. Corey Adams, 28, of Carrollton to sell submachine guns manufactured at Miller's house.

The sales began as early as 1999, according to U.S. Attorney David Nahmias.

The others named in the indictment are alleged to have received the weapons.

In mid-2003, the three men sold 19 fully automatic submachine guns to undercover agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tobacco and Explosives, Nahmias said in a press release.

Miller was importing Sten guns, a 9 mm submachine gun used by British troops from World War II until the 1960s, said Gary Orchowski, assistant special agent in charge of the ATF's Atlanta office.

A submachine gun is a fully automatic weapon that uses pistol ammunition.

The Sten is a distinctive weapon because its 32-round magazine mounts on the side rather than the bottom, as is the case with most submachine guns, such as M-16s or Thompsons.

Before submachine guns are imported, they have to be deactivated by cutting the receivers --- a primary component --- in half, Orchowski said. But Miller apparently perfected a technique of rewelding the receivers and making the guns functional.

Under the National Firearms Act, a citizen can legally possess a submachine gun as long it's registered, Orchowski said. Registration is handled through ATF and costs $250 per weapon.

Part of the registration includes notifying local law enforcement authorities that a special weapon is registered in their county, he said.

Miller's brother, Mark, also of Carrollton, allegedly bought one of the reworked Stens.

The two men also were charged with possession of firearms by a convicted felon, Nahmias said.

"The undercover ATF agents who went in and readily obtained these machine guns could easily have been criminals or other dangerous people," Nahmias said. "We are grateful to the ATF for stopping what could have been a dangerous gun pipeline."

> A version of this article may appear in today's Metro section.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:23:20 PM EDT
Why do I always miss the deals?!

NOT!!
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:36:21 PM EDT
People that stupid need to be in jail... then again we will be paying for them to sit on their asses and watch cable TV while in prison

They are in a heap of trouble I'd say....

Don't drop the soap fellas
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:36:50 PM EDT
Damn......thats close to home. Now the federal fuzz is gonna be all over West Georgia.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:45:09 PM EDT
As a guy who pays the NFA taxes, gets the CLEO sign offs and obeys the laws by only purchasing registered NFA items, I hope these yahoo's go to jail. Quite frankly it gives the law abiding lot of us a bad name.

FNGfromGA out
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:13:19 PM EDT
Why do you wish they went to jail? What exactly was the crime, and who was the victim? It was a crime that's artificially created by a bunch of liberals. If you want to be mad at something, don't be mad at the guys who were dumb enough to get caught, be mad at the people who made it illegal in the first place. Be mad at the people who have created an artificial demand for machine guns that we should be able to manufacture and own ANYWAYS, without such restrictions as registration, a freaking TAX, or a CLEO signoff.

What's come of this nation when firearm owners turn on each other over laws that shouldn't exist in the first place? While I think they're a bunch of idiots for doing it, knowing the consequences and such, I can't say that I think they should be punished. I don't believe in too many firearms laws that exist these days. I sure wish they'd go away and let otherwise law-abiding citizens just do their thing.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:37:26 PM EDT
Quote:"What's come of this nation when firearm owners turn on each other over laws that shouldn't exist in the first place? While I think they're a bunch of idiots for doing it, knowing the consequences and such, I can't say that I think they should be punished. I don't believe in too many firearms laws that exist these days. I sure wish they'd go away and let otherwise law-abiding citizens just do their thing."

I agree 110%. It sounds like these guys had some real talent and big brass balls....

It's a shame they couldn't do this within the limits of the law.

What part of "shall not be infringed upon" from the 2nd is difficult to understand???

TD


Link Posted: 8/20/2005 4:46:09 AM EDT
But yet, they were both felons to start with. Thus, creating a whole other crime of possessing a weapon by a felon. They need to be in jail.

Building a gun for yourself is one thing, but building them and selling to whoever is another. Don't defend these idiots. What they were doing was shady at best. They victim of this crime is you and me. When they sell illegal machine guns to anyone who wants to buy them, they are arming criminals and you know it. Guys that don't intend to use them illegaly will go about getting their guns the legal way.

The NFA sucks. Plain and simple. But, it is the law and has been for a LONG time.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 5:54:17 AM EDT
I am the first to say that the NFA sux (as chainshaw put it) having filed all paperwork, paid rediculous prices and waited for months and months for the approved forms, only to have the poorest excuse for customer service ( ie the NFA branch) not answer your questions.

The fact that there are laws which some folks do not like , does not grant these two felons the right to violate it. Laws should be addressed and changed through legislation, not violation. I consider the sunsetting of the rediculous assault weapons ban, as a victory for Law abiding citizens. I was hoping that the Steward case would allow Law Abiding citizens to manufacture their own NFA items ( not for sale) but that did not go our way.

But in my opinion these guys are not Second Amendment Patriots, these guys are dirt bags.

I will say that the AJC has a lot of stuff wrong in the article, the tax is $200, not $250. If you go the corporate route the local CLEO has no say in the matter and it does bother me that there is no mention of the 100K legally owned machine guns that ( with the exception of one or two morons) have never been used in a crime.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 11:19:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cade:
From the AJC today:

Feds nab 15 on gun charges
Lawrenceville man among those arrested
John Ghirardini - Staff
Friday, August 19, 2005

Fifteen men from Georgia, Alabama and Kentucky have been arrested on charges of manufacturing or receiving unregistered submachine guns, federal authorities said Thursday.

An indictment, unsealed Wednesday, alleges that Michael Miller, 49, of Carrollton conspired with Lawrenceville resident Larry Bush, 50, and J. Corey Adams, 28, of Carrollton to sell submachine guns manufactured at Miller's house.

The sales began as early as 1999, according to U.S. Attorney David Nahmias.

The others named in the indictment are alleged to have received the weapons.

In mid-2003, the three men sold 19 fully automatic submachine guns to undercover agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tobacco and Explosives, Nahmias said in a press release.






NFA sucks +10

Let me be the first to ask a dumb question. WhyTF did it take two years to indict these prior felons?
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 1:31:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FNGfromGA:
I am the first to say that the NFA sux (as chainshaw put it) having filed all paperwork, paid rediculous prices and waited for months and months for the approved forms, only to have the poorest excuse for customer service ( ie the NFA branch) not answer your questions.

The fact that there are laws which some folks do not like , does not grant these two felons the right to violate it. Laws should be addressed and changed through legislation, not violation. I consider the sunsetting of the rediculous assault weapons ban, as a victory for Law abiding citizens. I was hoping that the Steward case would allow Law Abiding citizens to manufacture their own NFA items ( not for sale) but that did not go our way.

But in my opinion these guys are not Second Amendment Patriots, these guys are dirt bags.

I will say that the AJC has a lot of stuff wrong in the article, the tax is $200, not $250. If you go the corporate route the local CLEO has no say in the matter and it does bother me that there is no mention of the 100K legally owned machine guns that ( with the exception of one or two morons) have never been used in a crime.



After paying for fingerprinting and getting a passport photo taken the total cost could be close to $250, so I really wouldn't knock that.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 4:06:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chainshaw:
But yet, they were both felons to start with. Thus, creating a whole other crime of possessing a weapon by a felon. They need to be in jail.

Building a gun for yourself is one thing, but building them and selling to whoever is another. Don't defend these idiots. What they were doing was shady at best. They victim of this crime is you and me. When they sell illegal machine guns to anyone who wants to buy them, they are arming criminals and you know it. Guys that don't intend to use them illegaly will go about getting their guns the legal way.

The NFA sucks. Plain and simple. But, it is the law and has been for a LONG time.



Well, we could get into a totally different argument where I state that if you can't trust a man with ALL of his previous rights and responsibilities, which would include EVERY right protected under the constitution, then don't let him out of jail. I think that previous felons should either be locked up for a maximum of 20 years, then released with full rights, privileges, and responsibilities just as before incarceration, or be put to death if they can't be fixed or rehabilitated into a productive, law-abiding person within that time frame. That argument would make the whole "previous felon" thing moot.

But even so, I missed the part where it said that they were felons. I kain't reeed good.

I think that anyone ought to be able to do anything, so long as he doesn't deprive another of his rights, property, or physical well-being. Therefore, my argument is on a different set of points than that on which you guys are arguing. I totally don't believe in any firearm law that restricts the ability to purchase, manufacture, possess, or discharge any firearm in a manner in accordance with the first line of this paragraph. If such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge results in the deprivation from another of his rights, property, or physical well-being, then such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge should be illegal. It is not the action or the intent which I would legislate against, but rather, the result of such.

I've now gone a little astray of the initial argument, but this is the basis of my argument.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:32:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 7:43:06 PM EDT by Accountant30339]

Origionally posted by FNGfromGA:
The fact that there are laws which some folks do not like , does not grant these two felons the right to violate it. Laws should be addressed and changed through legislation, not violation.



Ummmmm, excuse me....but prohibition was gotten rid of by violation........................and ultimately legislation!

Now, I am NOT advocating disobeying the law, but the problem with gun owners is that we are too law abiding. We are good, honest, decent people. To the extreme!!! Now, if we all revolted and told the BATFE to stick it up their ass................what would happen??? Sure, some of us would go to jail..........but they can't build enough prisons for all of us! So, fuck them.

I don't like the fact the criminals did this......but..................?!?!??!?


I think that anyone ought to be able to do anything, so long as he doesn't deprive another of his rights, property, or physical well-being. Therefore, my argument is on a different set of points than that on which you guys are arguing. I totally don't believe in any firearm law that restricts the ability to purchase, manufacture, possess, or discharge any firearm in a manner in accordance with the first line of this paragraph. If such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge results in the deprivation from another of his rights, property, or physical well-being, then such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge should be illegal. It is not the action or the intent which I would legislate against, but rather, the result of such.


Well said!!!!

Disclaimer: I have NO illegal machine guns at my home, my recreation property, or my families property. If you are that fucking bored come and check. Just don't kick the door in! Bring a warrant and I will give you the grand tour!



PS: My grandfather ran moonshine in the mountains of NC during the depression to support his family. That was illegal........but who the fuck gives a shit when your wife and 5 kids are starving! We aren't starving now, but we don't have a fucking spine either, because we don't stand up to these bastards. The BATFE fucked us not less than a month ago.......(anybody build AK's or FAL's)....and what did we do........we rolled over like a bunch or pussies and took in in the ass. Who called they Congressman or Senator and said this isn't right.....not a fucking one of you. You took it in the ass like a good little boy........or bitch.......as the case may be.

RISE UP!

RISE UP!..........Goddamn it!

I am not a pussy........and neither are you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(too pissed to type anymore)
Accountant
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:43:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Accountant30339:

Origionally posted by FNGfromGA:
The fact that there are laws which some folks do not like , does not grant these two felons the right to violate it. Laws should be addressed and changed through legislation, not violation.



Ummmmm, excuse me....but prohibition was gotten rid of by violation........................and ultimately legislation!

Now, I am NOT advocating disobeying the law, but the problem with gun owners is that we are too law abiding. We are good, honest, decent people. To the extreme!!! Now, if we all revolted and told the BATFE to stick it up their ass................what would happen??? Sure, some of us would go to jail..........but they can't build enough prisons for all of us! So, fuck them.

I don't like the fact the criminals did this......but..................?!?!??!?


I think that anyone ought to be able to do anything, so long as he doesn't deprive another of his rights, property, or physical well-being. Therefore, my argument is on a different set of points than that on which you guys are arguing. I totally don't believe in any firearm law that restricts the ability to purchase, manufacture, possess, or discharge any firearm in a manner in accordance with the first line of this paragraph. If such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge results in the deprivation from another of his rights, property, or physical well-being, then such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge should be illegal. It is not the action or the intent which I would legislate against, but rather, the result of such.


Well said!!!!

Disclaimer: I have NO illegal machine guns at my home, my recreation property, or my families property. If you are that fucking bored come and check. Just don't kick the door in! Bring a warrant and I will give you the grand tour!



PS: My grandfather ran moonshine in the mountains of NC during the depression to support his family. That was illegal........but who the fuck gives a shit when your wife and 5 kids are starving! We aren't starving now, but we don't have a fucking spine either, because we don't stand up to these bastards. The BATFE fucked us not less than a month ago.......(anybody build AK's or FAL's)....and what did we do........we rolled over like a bunch or pussies and took in in the ass. Who called they Congressman or Senator and said this isn't right.....not a fucking one of you. You took it in the ass like a good little boy........or bitch.......as the case may be.

RISE UP!

RISE UP!..........Goddamn it!

I am not a pussy........and neither are you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(too pissed to type anymore)
Accountant




PREACH IT BROTHER !!! don't hold back .

CAN I GET AN "AMEN"
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:51:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Accountant30339:

Origionally posted by FNGfromGA:
The fact that there are laws which some folks do not like , does not grant these two felons the right to violate it. Laws should be addressed and changed through legislation, not violation.



Ummmmm, excuse me....but prohibition was gotten rid of by violation........................and ultimately legislation!

Now, I am NOT advocating disobeying the law, but the problem with gun owners is that we are too law abiding. We are good, honest, decent people. To the extreme!!! Now, if we all revolted and told the BATFE to stick it up their ass................what would happen??? Sure, some of us would go to jail..........but they can't build enough prisons for all of us! So, fuck them.

I don't like the fact the criminals did this......but..................?!?!??!?


I think that anyone ought to be able to do anything, so long as he doesn't deprive another of his rights, property, or physical well-being. Therefore, my argument is on a different set of points than that on which you guys are arguing. I totally don't believe in any firearm law that restricts the ability to purchase, manufacture, possess, or discharge any firearm in a manner in accordance with the first line of this paragraph. If such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge results in the deprivation from another of his rights, property, or physical well-being, then such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge should be illegal. It is not the action or the intent which I would legislate against, but rather, the result of such.


Well said!!!!

Disclaimer: I have NO illegal machine guns at my home, my recreation property, or my families property. If you are that fucking bored come and check. Just don't kick the door in! Bring a warrant and I will give you the grand tour!



PS: My grandfather ran moonshine in the mountains of NC during the depression to support his family. That was illegal........but who the fuck gives a shit when your wife and 5 kids are starving! We aren't starving now, but we don't have a fucking spine either, because we don't stand up to these bastards. The BATFE fucked us not less than a month ago.......(anybody build AK's or FAL's)....and what did we do........we rolled over like a bunch or pussies and took in in the ass. Who called they Congressman or Senator and said this isn't right.....not a fucking one of you. You took it in the ass like a good little boy........or bitch.......as the case may be.

RISE UP!

RISE UP!..........Goddamn it!

I am not a pussy........and neither are you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(too pissed to type anymore)
Accountant



I write and harass my congress critters and President all the time. Isakson seems to be the only one who's ever had a staff member respond to me via email.

I agree about no one on this site complaining about the parts kits ban. It makes me sick. We are at a unique point in history where even the NFA could be overturned, but everyone is all warm and fuzzy in the post-coital glow of the AWB being overturned and the possibility of S397 being passed.

Even the NRA and GOA have been noticeably silent on the parts importation ban. All the letters and emails I sent about the import ban have netted zero response.

At this point I'm ready to say "fuck them all" and start my own gun rights organization.

Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:17:49 PM EDT
Amen +1000
The only reason for this was the dept of the treasury didnt want to lay off their guys, with prohibition ending in 1933 and all... Plus the treasury dept could make some jack off this deal too!!!FEDERAL TAX STAMP... What they didnt see was that there would be people in the govt (eventually there always are) that would try to expand on this.... I say push for a repeal of the 1934 NFA ACT and all LAWS associated with a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN being prohibited the ownership and or LEGAL use of any weapon used by the military just like it says in the federalist papers .... Every able bodied man between the ages of 16 and 45 is part of the STATE militia and should have the right to defend against all enemies DOMESTIC and FOREIGN....
History has shown time and time again that govenments grow and as they do the peoples freedoms slip away!!!!
Is it just me or do you guys feel likeyouve been cheated of your birthright in some way after reading the bill of rights and the constitution, looking at all that our forefathers endured and then being told youre free and then being EXPECTED to believe it????
I am not free I cannot come and go as I please(think about that the next time your at a roadblock),
I do not have the freedom to carry into bars or public gatherings!!! I will never own a full auto because reagan neutered the u.s. gun mfgs and made production of full autos for public sale illegal!!! Therefore making a 400.00 rifle 20,000.00heOff soap box (lotta good it did)hink
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 11:40:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By speedfreak955:
Amen +1000
The only reason for this was the dept of the treasury didnt want to lay off their guys, with prohibition ending in 1933 and all... Plus the treasury dept could make some jack off this deal too!!!FEDERAL TAX STAMP... What they didnt see was that there would be people in the govt (eventually there always are) that would try to expand on this.... I say push for a repeal of the 1934 NFA ACT and all LAWS associated with a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN being prohibited the ownership and or LEGAL use of any weapon used by the military just like it says in the federalist papers .... Every able bodied man between the ages of 16 and 45 is part of the STATE militia and should have the right to defend against all enemies DOMESTIC and FOREIGN....
History has shown time and time again that govenments grow and as they do the peoples freedoms slip away!!!!
Is it just me or do you guys feel likeyouve been cheated of your birthright in some way after reading the bill of rights and the constitution, looking at all that our forefathers endured and then being told youre free and then being EXPECTED to believe it????
I am not free I cannot come and go as I please(think about that the next time your at a roadblock),
I do not have the freedom to carry into bars or public gatherings!!! I will never own a full auto because reagan neutered the u.s. gun mfgs and made production of full autos for public sale illegal!!! Therefore making a 400.00 rifle 20,000.00
If we are the land of the FREE I for one would like to be held responsible for my own actions and be TRUSTED by the govt I pay to govern me TO BE LEFT TO MY OWN DEVICES AND GIVEN THE FREEDOM TO MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS AS TO WHETHER I CAN OWN ANY FIREARM I SO CHOOSE!!!!!!!AAAAAAHHHHHHH !!!!!!! he who would apease the tiger does so in hopes of being eaten last ....Winston Churchill
Off soap box (lotta good it did).
I think I need to sit down now




Speedfreak I could not agree with you any more. You are preaching to the chrior.

But I think you missed one important thing.


FREEDOMMMMMM.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:34:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:59:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By footrat:

Originally Posted By chainshaw:
But yet, they were both felons to start with. Thus, creating a whole other crime of possessing a weapon by a felon. They need to be in jail.

Building a gun for yourself is one thing, but building them and selling to whoever is another. Don't defend these idiots. What they were doing was shady at best. They victim of this crime is you and me. When they sell illegal machine guns to anyone who wants to buy them, they are arming criminals and you know it. Guys that don't intend to use them illegaly will go about getting their guns the legal way.

The NFA sucks. Plain and simple. But, it is the law and has been for a LONG time.



Well, we could get into a totally different argument where I state that if you can't trust a man with ALL of his previous rights and responsibilities, which would include EVERY right protected under the constitution, then don't let him out of jail. I think that previous felons should either be locked up for a maximum of 20 years, then released with full rights, privileges, and responsibilities just as before incarceration, or be put to death if they can't be fixed or rehabilitated into a productive, law-abiding person within that time frame. That argument would make the whole "previous felon" thing moot.

But even so, I missed the part where it said that they were felons. I kain't reeed good.

I think that anyone ought to be able to do anything, so long as he doesn't deprive another of his rights, property, or physical well-being. Therefore, my argument is on a different set of points than that on which you guys are arguing. I totally don't believe in any firearm law that restricts the ability to purchase, manufacture, possess, or discharge any firearm in a manner in accordance with the first line of this paragraph. If such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge results in the deprivation from another of his rights, property, or physical well-being, then such manufacture, purchase, possession, or discharge should be illegal. It is not the action or the intent which I would legislate against, but rather, the result of such.

I've now gone a little astray of the initial argument, but this is the basis of my argument.



What a lot of you seem to miss is that the loss of rights is part of the sentence. It has nothing to do with when you get out of jail.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:05:31 PM EDT

Do you really think the majority of people in this country want our borders to remain so porous?


HELL NO!


Can you think of anything more evil than the government taking your property, giving you compensation based on what they feel is appropriate (which I bet is pennies on the dollar) and then giving that property to a developer?


HELL NO!


Our local governments decide they need more tax revenues so they decide your home is now worth a few thousand dollars more than it was last year. Lucky you, your property taxes just went up


HELL NO!


Our local (and then subsequently our state) government decided people shouldn’t be allowed to smoke in any public area, including bars.


HELL NO! And Fuck Sonny for signing that bill..............our first communist since reconstruction!!!


I don’t even want to start ranting about taxes. I’ll end up with chest pains again.


Preach It Brother!


Here are some questions for you guys who think these guys should not go to jail. What if these guys were making hand grenades? Would that matter to you? Or what if they were making missile launchers? Would that be wrong? At what point do you feel they should go to jail? Should your next door neighbor be allowed to own a tank, claymore mines, a nuke?


Now you disappointed me. I expected better from you! The best way to explain how I feel on this issue would be to point out Switzerland as an example. Every able bodied male of sound mind and no criminal history has a rifle, ammunition, and magazines. So to answer your question, yes, I should be able to buy an M16.


At what point does it become a tyrannical government, or is it already?


It is already! Can any name ONE thing in your daily lives that the goverment does not regulate in one form or another?????


If we don’t like the laws, we should change them. The only problem is our elected officials don’t give a damn and aren’t going to change anything. So where does that leave us? Are you really prepared to stand up against the government, and if so, what are you going to do?


This brings me to my last and most important point!

As of this moment I am not ready, willing, or able to advocate a violent overthrow of this goverment. The cost would be too great, in both human life and economic terms..........but what I am advocating is a NON-violent take over of this government.

Did you know that there are 251 State and Federal Congressional seats, in the state of Georgia, that are up for grabs every 2-4 years. That's 251 opportunities for us to take back OUR government. If we won only 2 or 3 of those seats we could effect dramatic change at the State and Federal level!!!! We could do all sorts of things to restore freedom to American citizens.

SO HERE IS MY CHALLENGE:

I WILL PAY THE REGISTRATION FEES FOR YOU TO GET ON THE BALLOT IN YOUR DISTRICT ..........I WILL ALSO DONATE $1,000 DOLLARS TO THE CAMPAIGN OF THE FIRST PERSON WHO ACCEPTS MY OFFER........ I WILL KEEP THE BOOKS FOR YOUR CAMPAIGN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS OFFER IS OPEN TO EVERYONE LIVING IN THE STATE OF GEORGIA. THE NEXT ELECTION IS IN 2006.............SO WHO AMONG YOU WILL TAKE MY OFFER???



DISCLAIMER: I am not a millionare so I can't pay for everthing..........but I will donate as much money as possible (over the amount stated above) and give you my time to do the bookeeping for you.


PS: Book - tack this offer at the top of the Hometown board. I want everybody to see it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:42:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:46:31 PM EDT
Why not run yourself? I'd support you over the 30 other choices in my precinct. I'd run myself if I wasn't working on the other side of the planet every day. As I write that I think about the sacrifices those before me have made so I can make that statement, and I feel very pointless indeed.

My problem is this: There are 70,000 members of this site. I doubt more than 700 have ever written a politician. Most likely less than 30,000 have ever voted once in their lives. You cannot have a just government when most citizens will not get off their asses to vote or make their opinions heard.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:01:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BookHound:
Accountant30339, you answered MOST of my questions. But, answer these two for me.

Should anyone be able to buy claymore mines?

Should anyone be allowed to own a nuke?


I totally agree on the M16.

I used to have this conversation with a neighbor of mine all the time. We both had a hard time drawing the line where private citizens should stop being able to own certain military arms. I really want to be able to buy flashbangs, hand grenades, OC gas, etc. But I really don't want my neighbor to own a nuke.

I'm so confused.



Generous offer regarding the donation. Hate to ask a stupid question, but what are the responsibilities of a GA representative?



Yes. Anyone should be able to buy claymores or nukes.

Anyone prior to '34 could buy a mine. Did we have a mine problem in this country? No.

When you start down the path of saying that "Only governments should have 'X'" you start down a slippery slope. Do you believe that every one of the Air Force Academy-trained young men with a key in the silos in KS, CO, MT, SD, ND were morally or ethically superior to you, or that they were merely well-trained monkeys able to carry out a script at a moments notice? A script written by whom and for what purpose? I'm not implying a conspiracy. Just raising the question, in case you had 60 billion or so to spend on the answer.


Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:09:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:23:57 PM EDT
Bookhound,
In response to your query about the grenades, nukes, etc... etc...
Sam Houston had cannons at the Alamo (the equivalent to nukes of the day) They were privately purchased by the people....
In 1860-1861 The cannons used by the south had been purchased from england and anywhere they could scavenge them.
I know some were removed from federal armories in the south but not all..
This being said people didnt go around dropping howitzer shells on their neighbors (at least till fort sumterheReason I ask is Ive been looking for the piles of aks and ars from the awb ending???
Not trying to be a smart a$$
I just think that the fear of what MIGHT happen is far greater than you think...
As far as the nukes go I dont think all of us together could afford one let alone use it after paying for it...hell
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:38:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 7:08:04 PM EDT by Accountant30339]
Ok, Book.............you wanna playhard ball................


Should anyone be able to buy claymore mines?

Should anyone be allowed to own a nuke?



If you read the Federalist Papers, the 2nd Amendment was designed for every able bodied American to provide for the national defense. Now to provide for the national defense, it does not require the ownership of claymore mines or nukes..........you are kidding yourself if you think so.

So, Book, NO you do not need claymores or nukes to defend your country!!




Generous offer regarding the donation. Hate to ask a stupid question, but what are the responsibilities of a GA representative?


Book, I am deadly serious about the offer. Tack it! The offer stands!

Well, the responsibilities include selling out your country, your state, and your fellow Americans.........oh, don't forget doing a few whores as you go along.


Why not run yourself?

I am seriously considering it! The only thing that is holding me back is my checkered past.

Accountant
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 3:23:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:04:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 4:04:43 PM EDT by Accountant30339]

All good points. Now, where do I get my claymores?


At my house of course.


Accountant30339, I'd rather not tack this thread because the part you want tacked is buried at the bottom of the thread and is straying off topic. If you start a new thread with your offer, I'll tack it.


Understood. Let me figure out the final wording for my offer, I would go postal if I gave money to a communists campaign , and I will let you know when it has been posted.

Accountant
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:28:31 PM EDT
Here is my way of looking at ownership of weapons, and what should be allowed:

If an item is inherently safe, it should be totally unrestricted in ownership or possession. By "safe," I mean that if the item were sitting on a table in another room, unaffected by the meddling of humans or other interventions, would the item pose a threat at that moment to someone in another room, or even in that same room? If the answer is no, then the item is inherently safe. All firearms in good repair would certainly fall under this category. I'm no explosives expert, but I from my minor HazMat course, I do know that there are stable and unstable explosives. Stable explosives, to me, would be things like C4, Claymores, grenades, etc. Unstable ones would include nitroglycerin and others like that, which could potentially detonate without direct human interaction. I assert that anyone should be able to own EITHER ONE, but the conditions for each would be different. There should be NO conditions on the ownership of stable explosives and other inherently safe items. However, unstable explosives, or items that are otherwise dangerous without human manipulation or interaction, the only requirement placed on their ownership or possession is that they be stored, transported, and handled in a manner which does not permit the unsafe nature of the item to pose a danger to others outside the storage or handling personnel. I don't care if those people die, since they're playing with that shit at their own peril.

Nukes would fall under unsafe items for SURE. To meet the requirements for storage or use, you'd have to be the US Gov't or Bill Gates, because a storage facility and a test facility would be a bit pricey. The item itself would be the least costly thing, but still expensive. As far as grenades go, people can still own those. You can buy destructive devices. The reason people don't own a bunch of grenades is that the manufacturers won't sell to anyone but .mil or LE, for liability reasons. So, you'd still have a hard time getting these things you're afraid everyone would get. But, if they're stored or used safely, I have no problem with people owning them. Same as how I have no problem with anyone owning or carrying a firearm, so long as they do so safely, and don't endanger anyone while doing so. No double standards.

When it comes to Muhammed getting the stuff...shit, if you think he can't already, you're just burying your head in the sand. I still think that every US citizen, including Muslims in America, is entitled to the same rights. If you're not an American Citizen, then you have some abbreviated rights, as far as firearms and certain other things are concerned, but all the same rights as far as freedom of speech and protection under the law and such go. I believe those rights apply to everyone worldwide who is not engaged in military combat. I don't believe in legislation based on what someone MIGHT do, be he a terrorist or not. I believe in making the penalties for the RESULTS of one's actions as stiff as possible, to encourage a little pre-thinking and personal responsibility for one's actions.
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