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Posted: 8/11/2004 10:32:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/11/2004 10:33:36 AM EST by Fast351]
I got my yearly membership to Del Tone last month when I was up there practicing for an up coming IDPA match. It seemed like a good deal. 95 bux and I can come shoot "whenever I want". The rule of the range seemed simple enough, like most ranges. The lady that sold me the membership lives at the house in front of the rifle/pistol range was nice enough, glossed over the rules, specifically the rapid fire rule. "Rapid fire means uncontrolled repeated firing downrange".

So the SAME DAY, I'm at the range with my shiny new membership badge, doing some handgun work. Specifically, I was doing double taps to COM, followed by a head shot. Some guy (I assume he was a range employee, he was building the deer stand by the archery range) yelled at me for "rapid fire" and that I had to slow down. Now mind you I'm not a great shot and my "double taps" are probably .75 to a full second apart, with the head shot followup probably 2 seconds later. Not exactly what I would call uncontrolled repeated firing downrange. I was starting to regret spending the money on a membership already. If I was dumping entire 30 round magazines downrange through an AR as fast as I could pull the trigger, fine, yell at me all you want. But this was controlled, aimed, fire, a couple rounds at a time.

Skip forward to today. I wanted to go up to Del Tone to practice a little bit for the upcoming IDPA match this weekend. After reading about the Three Gun DPMS challenge, I decided to check the website. Lo and behold, all rifle bays closed FOR AN ENTIRE WEEK. So I call, surely they would leave a single bay open for the few people that want to shoot during the week. NOPE.

So now I have to go to Armored Fire and spend 18 bux there to go shoot.

All I can think of is if I wasn't internet savvy, I would have driven an hour to go shoot only to be turned back because the range was closed. Why again did I spend the money to get a membership there?

I will likely not renew my membership there. It's just not worth it. Just venting...
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 12:25:51 PM EST
In defense of Paulie and company there was a post card sent out to members a while back with the dates of exclusion on them. Sorry for your hassle. And, well you as buyer of services should have read the rules of the range before you plunked down the range fees. I tend to think that Del-Tone is a good deal. As many clubs in the metro have waiting lists to join. And, with closing of Moon Valley, although it was a dump, still a range open to the public the number of ranges has dwindled. We are all not as fortunate as some to have access to private property to expend ammo. So, perhaps you ought to chill! Paulie has done allot for the range. And, they (Randy Luth and DPMS) are promoting the shooting sports. We are fortunate to see the likes of Jerry Miculek and others shoot up here in the hinter land.
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 1:51:57 PM EST
you can shoot with me at the Oakdale Gun Club in Lake Elmo if you are interested....not too many shooters during the week and they are also accepting applications again........IM me if interested..
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 3:30:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By rn22723:
In defense of Paulie and company there was a post card sent out to members a while back with the dates of exclusion on them.

Well, *I* certainly didn't get it.

Sorry for your hassle. And, well you as buyer of services should have read the rules of the range before you plunked down the range fees.

I did read the range rules. What in my post indicates to you otherwise?

I tend to think that Del-Tone is a good deal. As many clubs in the metro have waiting lists to join. And, with closing of Moon Valley, although it was a dump, still a range open to the public the number of ranges has dwindled. We are all not as fortunate as some to have access to private property to expend ammo. So, perhaps you ought to chill! Paulie has done allot for the range. And, they (Randy Luth and DPMS) are promoting the shooting sports. We are fortunate to see the likes of Jerry Miculek and others shoot up here in the hinter land.



They must have known a month ago when I signed up that the pistol range was going to be closed for a week. Why didn't they mention it to me when I signed up?

The fact that the number of ranges is starting to dwindle is a sad fact of life, however, it's still no reason to treat people (especially customers) like shit. If the goal is to promote shooting sports, I would think it's in their best interest to get new people excited about coming there instead of put off about coming there. So far my first two experiences with Del Tone as a member have been sour. That's not a good track record if you want people to come back.

It's nice that great shooters are coming to Del Tone. But even us mediocre shooters should be able to get what we pay for.

Link Posted: 8/11/2004 4:42:16 PM EST
Wow, what is one in week in the grand scheme of things? Not allot. Life is way to short to get so freaking wound up about something like this!
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 5:13:59 PM EST
ok I just can't sit back and read anymore on this one wihtout saying a few words.

Del Tone is not a bad place. I have been shooting there for a few years now and this was my first year with annual membership. Paulie has done wonderful things with the range-new concrete pads, overhead cover, new grass, and a new steel range. These are just the physical improvements. The number of events and the number of people and top/popular shooters that are coming to the range are incredible. I hold Paulie partially responsible for furthering my interest in firearms. I met a bunch of guys from this website at a AR15.com shoot there (they got me interested in the black gun syndrome-it took me a while to join the site though). (It was also the first time I went to Stubby Gear (old place-been to the new place a few times too).)
As far as I am concerned Paulie and the crew have done more to make me feel welcome there than I would have ever expected. I can't count the number of times I have chatted with him in the clubhouse and probably kept him from working, but he has always been there to answer questions. The club has allowed me to be involved more in shooting and introduce many people from my work to shooting (especially the "evil" black guns). We were all newer shooters and we all were encouraged to participate in events and classes or even just to watch. The price is very reasonable-I personally think it is a hell of a deal to be able shoot as many guns for as long as you want.

Bottom line is that I disagree with your opinion. While I understand your concern regarding rapid fire-has happened to me out there too with double taps-I think you should have brought it up with them before communicating your concerns in such a public forum (I will never say that is wrong- free speech is exactly that free speech but i think you may have been able to address your concerns in person first and achieved a satisfactory response). I think you will find them (Paulie and staff) to be very respectful in hearing your respectful concerns. (As a sidenote--when you exit the door out of the clubhouse i am pretty sure i saw a bright yellow sign showing the days the range is closed to the left of the door and under the whiteboard.)

Not trying to flame but rather to respectfully disagree with your opinion.
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 5:50:08 PM EST
Well, lets see. I got my membership at the end of June. Since memberships run calendar years (which BTW I think is kind of a ripoff, since we're talking about issues I don't like) and outdoor shooting becomes very uncomfortable (read fingers freeze to firearms) in November, that gives me July, August, September, and October. 20 weeks. 1 week is a big deal. Especially since I was not notified of it.

Paul, I think you read this forum. If you have a problem with people practicing double taps on your range, THIS SHOULD BE DISCUSSED WITH PROSPECTIVE MEMBERS BEFORE TAKING THEIR MONEY. I was MISLED, to put it mildly. I would NOT have bought a membership had I known this.

As for discussing this in a public forum, this is EXACTLY the right place to discuss this. Potential members are obviously not told when they sign up, this is my only way to communicate this to people thinking about becoming a member there.

If you like Del Tone, I respect your opinion on that. However, people should have the right to hear about my experiences so they can judge for themselves if they would like to become a member there.

Maybe after the frustration of not being able to shoot there tomorrow and having to pay another range 18 bux to do so, I will be in a better mood. That will still not change my opinion about misleading customers about what rapid fire means to get their membership money being wrong.
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 5:56:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/11/2004 6:01:49 PM EST by iNuhBaDNayburhood]
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 6:14:49 PM EST
As someone who has been attending ATA trapshoots at Del-tone for 15 years, ( I now shoot league as well as use the rifle range) I'd like to point out that they spend thousands of $$$ on liability insurance. One stray round could make those rates triple and put the entire range in jeopardy. I personally love the new management - they're doing good things with both the trap and rifle ranges, and Paulie is always there to talk and answer questions. If you have an issue, you should take it to him before you take it here.

As for the rifle range being closed this week, what would you expect with a bunch of guys running around mowing, trimming, setting up targets and courses? It may also be they don't want anybody to see the course until the shoot starts. They've been working like dogs out there to put on a good shoot for everyone.

SG
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 6:43:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By ShellGhost:
As someone who has been attending ATA trapshoots at Del-tone for 15 years, ( I now shoot league as well as use the rifle range) I'd like to point out that they spend thousands of $$$ on liability insurance. One stray round could make those rates triple and put the entire range in jeopardy. I personally love the new management - they're doing good things with both the trap and rifle ranges, and Paulie is always there to talk and answer questions. If you have an issue, you should take it to him before you take it here.



You're right, I should have immediately asked for a refund on my annual membership and just paid the $20 for myself and the person I was shooting with. I figured that would have been a little petty for one person yelling at me to slow down. Here's an idea. If they really have a problem with the liability of people shooting at faster than once/2 seconds or whatever their definition is, maybe they should stick with trap shooters with their #8 birdshot and people sighting in deer rifles putting their 5 rounds down range for 10 bux. If you're going to run a full service range, at least explain what is and is not allowed in clear language. If you define rapid fire as more than one shot every two seconds, I will opt not to use your "full service facility" and go somewhere else.

As for discussing it here, it's already been covered. As a business owner, you should be comfortable enough with your business' policies to have them scrutinized by the public. If you're not, maybe your business policies need some review.



As for the rifle range being closed this week, what would you expect with a bunch of guys running around mowing, trimming, setting up targets and courses? It may also be they don't want anybody to see the course until the shoot starts. They've been working like dogs out there to put on a good shoot for everyone.



I have no problem with closing the range for a week. What I DO have a problem with is not being notified of such.

None of this would have been an issue if the guy the first time at the range yelling about rapid fire wouldn't have been such a dick to me. Maybe some instructions to your ROs to be firm but courteous is in order. Noone likes being treated like dirt. And the next guy you treat like dirt might just know something about a little thing like the internet, and tell all the people on the boards they frequent about their experience. And even if not, most shooters probably have friends that are shooters. Friends talk. Treat people with respect and this isn't an issue.

I hope this was an isolated incident. Somehow I fear that it was not.

Link Posted: 8/11/2004 6:57:52 PM EST
Range Rules. Well, simply put we are not the range owners or staff. What we think is not relevant in any shape form or manner. The vast majority of ranges are static in distances that can be accomodated. And, they must be for the ease of operation. There seemingly is a problem with having rules for the general public and the greater good. The greater good translates maintaining a safe range for all to enjoy. So to al the whiners I say consider the greater good and not feeding your ego. There are all kinds of other ranges out there. JEMXXX offered to sponsor one fellow for a membership at Oakdale. Take advantage of it, but go read the rules for the club.

I take exception to people who think the rules do not apply to them, as you really must be delusional!
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 4:58:53 AM EST
I think Oakdale gun club has openings for 100 new members, hopefully there are a few left because it is a first come, first serve type for new applicants.....if anyone is interested go to the website and take a look..... www.oakdalegunclub.org
lot better than driving all that way up to St. Cloud.......
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 8:31:22 AM EST
If you are a member does Oakdale still charge you per gun? That made me shy away from shooting there much.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 9:06:37 AM EST
Not getting into it but I think Oakdale is more strict than Deltone. My personal opinion is that you will not find a range that will let rapid fire take place.

Once the steel area is open the allways have at least allowed us to shoot them as fast as we could and we always have fun. So Maybe just give them another try after the three gun is over.

One bad apple does not ruin the bunch.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 11:06:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By death451:
Not getting into it but I think Oakdale is more strict than Deltone. My personal opinion is that you will not find a range that will let rapid fire take place.

Once the steel area is open the allways have at least allowed us to shoot them as fast as we could and we always have fun. So Maybe just give them another try after the three gun is over.

One bad apple does not ruin the bunch.



Well, at the glock match a month ago, there were people that were shooting 6 plates in the sub 3 second range. If you're right about that, then they should have NO problem with people doing double taps.

I'll give them one more chance after the three gun. If I can't do some rudimentary IDPA drills there, the range is useless to me. I can already hit the target in the dead center at 5 second intervals. That's just wasting ammo for the most part. Maybe they should just clarify WHAT IS MEANT BY RAPID FIRE!!!! It obviously is not the definition *I* was given by range crew.

Paul, I'm still waiting for you to chime in here.

Link Posted: 8/12/2004 2:28:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2004 3:30:18 PM EST by ShellGhost]
mispost
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 2:46:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2004 2:49:14 PM EST by ShellGhost]

You're right, I should have immediately asked for a refund on my annual membership and just paid the $20 for myself and the person I was shooting with


That's one option, or you could have gone up to the range officer and asked for clarification on the rule while explaining what you were doing.


If you're going to run a full service range, at least explain what is and is not allowed in clear language. If you define rapid fire as more than one shot every two seconds, I will opt not to use your "full service facility" and go somewhere else.


I went there on Saturday and to get admission, you have to hand over your drivers license, which they copy onto the rule sheet that they give you to read and sign.


As for discussing it here, it's already been covered. As a business owner, you should be comfortable enough with your business' policies to have them scrutinized by the public. If you're not, maybe your business policies need some review.


I see nothing that doesn't pass scrutiny other than a possibly rude RO. I don't think DPMS should have any concerns.


I have no problem with closing the range for a week. What I DO have a problem with is not being notified of such


There was a sign posted on the door that explained when and why the rifle, skeet, and sporting clays ranges would be closed. The tri-gun shoot has been planned for months, if the idea that the range might be closed for a few days beforehand never crossed your mind then that's a lack of forethought on your end.

Maybe the RO was rude, and if he was you should have gone to the management about it to complain and/or ask for clarification. I sure as hell would have.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 7:16:01 PM EST
I really admire the person that can not think for themselves. Instead to seeking clarificatin by going direct to Pauli; they decide to go to public forum and trash an entity. And, if that is the way you think stuff gets accomplished you must be one lazy and ill mannered person. How do you get through the day?
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 3:16:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By rn22723:
I really admire the person that can not think for themselves. Instead to seeking clarificatin by going direct to Pauli; they decide to go to public forum and trash an entity. And, if that is the way you think stuff gets accomplished you must be one lazy and ill mannered person. How do you get through the day?



I'm not going to dignify personal attacks with a response. If you have a problem with me, feel free to IM me.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 3:37:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By ShellGhost:
That's one option, or you could have gone up to the range officer and asked for clarification on the rule while explaining what you were doing.



I had already gotten an explanation of what rapid fire was from a range employee, I thought that was good enough. From my experience argueing with rude ROs is very counterproductive.


I went there on Saturday and to get admission, you have to hand over your drivers license, which they copy onto the rule sheet that they give you to read and sign.


Which says "No rapid fire" which I had no problem with at the time the way rapid fire was explained to me by a range employee.


I see nothing that doesn't pass scrutiny other than a possibly rude RO. I don't think DPMS should have any concerns.


I agree, that's why I don't understand why some people are getting thier panties in a wad about me bringing up my experience at Del Tone in a public forum.


There was a sign posted on the door that explained when and why the rifle, skeet, and sporting clays ranges would be closed. The tri-gun shoot has been planned for months, if the idea that the range might be closed for a few days beforehand never crossed your mind then that's a lack of forethought on your end.


Perhaps. Fortunately I checked their website and called before driving all the way up there. It wouldn't have been alot of effort to mention "please note the calendar on the door, and realize that we may be closed some days." In any case, I know now that they close the range during the middle of the summer, and will make my decision to renew my membership based on that.


Maybe the RO was rude, and if he was you should have gone to the management about it to complain and/or ask for clarification. I sure as hell would have.


Well, I suppose I should have done that. That kind of criticism, in my experience, is not well received, and I was NOT in the mood to argue with anyone at that point.

This is my last post on the subject since no new information is being added, and some people above have resorted to name calling and personal attacks.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:40:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jakezor:
If you are a member does Oakdale still charge you per gun? That made me shy away from shooting there much.

No, you do not get charged per gun if you are a member, you are free to shoot anytime......when they have open deer sight-in range for the public coming up soon and they are paying per gun, you, being a member don't have to pay............
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 6:43:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 6:45:12 AM EST by jem375]

Originally Posted By death451:
Not getting into it but I think Oakdale is more strict than Deltone. My personal opinion is that you will not find a range that will let rapid fire take place.

Once the steel area is open the allways have at least allowed us to shoot them as fast as we could and we always have fun. So Maybe just give them another try after the three gun is over.

One bad apple does not ruin the bunch.

fast351 is right.....they have Glock matches there, and also PD's doing qualifications so double taps are not uncommon there.....besides, during the week unless it is open to the public, there are no range officers on duty until the public starts coming in for sight-in for deer rifles.................
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 12:50:36 PM EST
Range Nazis are everywhere you go. Get used to it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:18:56 PM EST
Hey guys, I have been pretty busy with 3 gun latley so I ahve not posted in a while.
For starters, Fast351 has the right to post his complaints here if he wants to. Sometimes information such as this does not reach me unless I see it here first.
The staffer who was working on the tower told me later that night about this incident. He said that he heard a sucseeive number of shots that were pretty fast and advised the person shooting to knock it off. No one likes to be reminded of the rules and it can be a little embarassing. I like to walk up to that person and advise them quitely but I think that he may have yelled it from the tower. However the reason that he had to interject I stand behind.
As with almost all outdoor ranges, if we have a bullet escape the range we will be shut down. We have to try everything possible to make sure that this does not happen.
All persons, year or day pass, are advised in writting about this, verbal advised of this and there are signs that state no rapid fire located in front and behind the counter, on the road to the range, at the range gate and as soon as you pullinto the range.
As to the range being shut down, we sent a post card to every person that has a year pass. Those postcards that came back, we looked up the new addresses and made sure that the member received it. Since we mailed the post card we hand out to all new members a copy of this card that tells you when they range will be shut down. We have even put up signs on the doors and it has always been in the marker board next to the door.
Year passes are for the callender year for two reasons. We change the locks on Jan 1 and the majority of the shooting takes place June to Nov.
It is difficult to let one know how to define rapid fire but we try and give the bennifit of the doubt to the customer. If it a gross violation, we do not hesitate to eject that person from the range for good.
The day after 3gun we had a large LE conferance at the range. We had to eject two officers fo rthis very reason. Wheather it is a pro, a LEO or joe average, we have to enforce this rule.
USPSA matches have a RO folloew the shooter through the course of fire. If at anytime the rate of fire is unsafe, the RO stops the shooter and they receive a disqualification. This happend to two people at the 3gun match.
Fast351, I appologize that you had an unpleasant visit to our range. We do try our best to accomodate everyone and give you the best range to shoot at. If you have a concern, please feel free to contact me. Even when you are at the range, my cell number is located on the large rule board in bay #2.
Guys, thank you for your support on this thread, I really appreciate that.
Also just to let you know, the range will be again shut down wed to sun the 25th to 29th of aug foe the USPSA MN Sectionals.
Thanks again.
Paulie
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:10:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 9:10:32 AM EST by hardcase]

Also just to let you know, the range will be again shut down wed to sun the 25th to 29th of aug foe the USPSA MN Sectionals.


Paulie, will the range be open to watch the competition?


Also just to let you know, the range will be again shut down wed to sun the 25th to 29th of aug foe the USPSA MN Sectionals.


Hey, Paulie, I'm down wit cho ebonics!


Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:17:55 AM EST
Yes, people are welcome to come out and watch. If this is something that you like, think about joining.
Sorry about the typos, it was 2 am after a long weekend.
Paulie
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 12:47:03 PM EST
Hey Paulie, I don't have any problem with the typos. I was just being a smart ass. No harm intended.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:23:34 PM EST
dat cool.
P
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:04:25 PM EST
I am well familiar with being unhappy with DelTon. I was refused admittance to shoot one time when I forgot to bring my MNDL. I had driven about 100 miles to come to shoot...so I was pissed. But...I see the reason Paulie has the rules he does and after I settled down, I can respect that. I also respect the fact that Del-Ton has become a very nice place to shoot due to the efforts of Paulie (and crew). If I lived closer, I'd probably have a membership there. I shot there last weekend in the USPSA match and had a great time. Every time I come there, the facility has been improved and it is a nicer place to shoot. Nothing is perfect. Give it another chance.
Sleepy717
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:17:12 PM EST
Sleepy!

Where you been man?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:06:13 PM EST
Hey Fed...didn't want you guys to forget about me! I've been buisy with work, 3 young boys and shooting USPSA/IPSC. Kept me really buisy to say the least. Shootin' season has throttled back, now it's time to get ready for snowmobile season!.
See ya on the range...
Sleepy717
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