any guesses if it will ever happen, all these false alarms...

maybe they will just give up and not change the list.

Good news if thats the case, looks like the sporting conversions kit is pretty convenient while still requiring a tool to remove the magazine.

it's been what, maybe 50 days since this all started on a major level? Be patient. Besides, from what I have heard the very people working on this have famiy members who are excited because they can finally own an AR. If it were my guess, some people are dragging their feet until their family members who want them have them in hand, and then it will be back to business.

It could be that there are a lot of things going on right now. There are many people, from both sides, that are watching the DOJ closely on this.  They are very careful about how they do this following the SKS fiasco.  There are also pending cases about the AW ban that they have to consider.  I think we will see the update, but they want to get it right.

Quoted: Good news if thats the case, looks like the sporting conversions kit is pretty convenient while still requiring a tool to remove the magazine.

cool any info on this? link?

Quoted: Quoted: Good news if thats the case, looks like the sporting conversions kit is pretty convenient while still requiring a tool to remove the magazine. cool any info on this? link?

here ya go!
sportingconversions.com/

Quoted: It could be that there are a lot of things going on right now. There are many people, from both sides, that are watching the DOJ closely on this.  They are very careful about how they do this following the SKS fiasco.

The SKS fiasco is irrelevant here.  And the DOJ is not extending any registration period, etc beyond what the law provides.  When/if they identify new AR/AK series members, a 90 day reg window MUST open.  (No, the DOJ couldn't open a second reg window for catchup on previously-listed lowers, or extend that period by 90 days - that takes lawmaking by legislators and a governor's signature, or veto override.)

The DOJ Firearms Div. indeed has the authority (and affirmed by the 2001 Harrott decision) to add new 'series' members by itself, and without any other court or legislative intervention, to the AR & AK Roster (which is really Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11 - "the list").

It takes large bureacracies a bit of  time to move.  They've prob investigated ways around this, which is moot. They'd like not to have much publicity about this given they've not updated The List for about 5 years (especially since the Harrott decision).

It may take another couple of weeks, it may be tomorrow.  Frankly they might just be taking their time to really get a comprehensive list formed (and clean up the old list).  AK stuff might be causing them trouble...


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

The SKS fiasco is irrelevant here.  And the DOJ is not extending any registration period, etc beyond what the law provides.  When/if they identify new AR/AK series members, a 90 day reg window MUST open.  (No, the DOJ couldn't open a second reg window for catchup on previously-listed lowers, or extend that period by 90 days - that takes lawmaking by legislators and a governor's signature, or veto override.

They can but it will take an act from the state assembly, senate, and governor. But with this huge bond proposal, who knows?  California can take property for public safety purposes but our state constitution requires reimbursement. DOJ being an administrative office can only use their budget as approved by legislation and executive branches. If there is no money (and there is probably not) for buy-backs, the state legislation must appropriate money and the governor must approve it. This obviously takes awhile so we will see this coming starting with an appropriations bill.

The DOJ Firearms Div. indeed has the authority (and affirmed by the 2001 Harrott decision) to add new 'series' members by itself, and without any other court or legislative intervention, to the AR & AK Roster (which is really Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11 - "the list").

In the most simplistic terms, the DOJ is responsible for updating the list. However, they do not nor does all other administrative offices have the power to update the CCR. Any "list" not included in the CCR is not enforceable.  Only the Secretary of State's office has the power to update the CCR. Even so, there are procedures that must be followed.

California experienced problems with regulations that residents knew nothing about. So, we have the California Administrative Procedure Act which dictates the procedures for updating the CCRs that include public hearings that takes weeks. There is an emergency procedure that only has a 10-day comment period, however.

If the DOJ wants to update the list quickly, as you imply, they can only do so through a Superior Court by getting a temporary then permanent injunction. It is the junction that gives the power to override the administrative procedure act.

It takes large bureacracies a bit of  time to move.  They've prob investigated ways around this, which is moot. They'd like not to have much publicity about this given they've not updated The List for about 5 years (especially since the Harrott decision). It may take another couple of weeks, it may be tomorrow.  Frankly they might just be taking their time to really get a comprehensive list formed (and clean up the old list).  AK stuff might be causing them trouble...

It does but it is appearing that the smart money bet is that they will only update the list once in conjunction with update AW legislation that permanent bans AW for good. There are plenty of state senators and assemblymen will to do so. Chief among these are Perata in the senate and Koretz in the assembly.  The Govenator seems to like sign AW bills anyway.

I doubt there are any AK issues holding the DOJ up. These are competent people unlike some of the elected politicians.  Something else is going on than just an update to the list. They had time to do just that.


In the meantime, don't anybody get caught up in the euphoria of getting a AR lower and jump the gun building it up. Certainly be very careful of the flimsy fix mag kits being posted.... don't be the sucker who test the legitimacy of it with the police... if in doubt write the DOJ. If you are a taxpayer, why not? They work for you.

Why would I write the DOJ when I can read the part that say's " a fixed magazine is one that can not be removed EXCEPT with a tool" it also say's " A bullet or shell IS considerd a tool" And having installed a mag kit I can tell you without the right tool you are not removing the magazine. And I do keep that page in my butstock.

Stator..

Please read PC 12276.5(h) before you incorrectly "clarify" again.  You're just plain wrong.

In the most simplistic terms, the DOJ is responsible for updating the list. However, they do not nor does all other administrative offices have the power to update the CCR. Any "list" not included in the CCR is not enforceable.  Only the Secretary of State's office has the power to update the CCR. Even so, there are procedures that must be followed.

We speak of the DOJ "updating the CCR" as a term of convenience.  Yes, the list gets forwarded to Secy of State's office for actual publication.   This only takes a matter of days.

California experienced problems with regulations that residents knew nothing about. So, we have the California Administrative Procedure Act which dictates the procedures for updating the CCRs that include public hearings that takes weeks. There is an emergency procedure that only has a 10-day comment period, however.

NOT TRUE.   Perhaps you didn't see my other response to your response on another thread here.

PC 12276.5(h) specifically exempts postings of identified and declared AWs from being subject to Admin Procedures Act (sec 11340 etc of gov't code).   Thus no comment procedures, business impact statements, etc. are required.   Boom - it's transmitted from DOJ to Sec State's office, they publish, and it's good to go.

If the DOJ wants to update the list quickly, as you imply, they can only do so through a Superior Court by getting a temporary then permanent injunction. It is the junction that gives the power to override the administrative procedure act.

Again, not true.  The AW law expressly includes avoidance of Admin. Procedures Act (11340 stuff) for AW list maintenance/updates...

It does but it is appearing that the smart money bet is that they will only update the list once in conjunction with update AW legislation that permanent bans AW for good. There are plenty of state senators and assemblymen will to do so. Chief among these are Perata in the senate and Koretz in the assembly.  The Govenator seems to like sign AW bills anyway.

There has been zero legislative activity.  It'll likely take 6 mos before its out of committees and both houses and on gov's desk.   In the meantime, the DOJ will have to act or another 20,000 AR lowers plus AK receivers will come into CA.   That will get attention and start getting really embarrassing.

I doubt there are any AK issues holding the DOJ up. These are competent people unlike some of the elected politicians.  Something else is going on than just an update to the list. They had time to do just that.

Various staff had to reeturn from vacation, having staff looking at alternate solutions (which do not appear viable) all take a bit of time.  Plus gather info on how many lowers sold, from where, hire data entry stafff  for registration entry, print up forms for mailings, etc.

In the meantime, don't anybody get caught up in the euphoria of getting a AR lower and jump the gun building it up. Certainly be very careful of the flimsy fix mag kits being posted.... don't be the sucker who test the legitimacy of it with the police... if in doubt write the DOJ. If you are a taxpayer, why not? They work for you.

Writing DOJ is a waste of time now. A desk clerk/agent doesn't know the minor details of the law, and we see how they distribute bad information/misinformation (i..e, to out of state FFLs & mfgrs).\

Sec 979.20 definition for detachable magazine is clearly readable and the mag kits comply.  As long as it takes 'tools + time' and the mag is not hand-changeable during rifle operation, nor do the screws loosen/tighten by hand (use lockwasher + some removable ThreadLok (green, not red!)) you are OK.

No, the DOJ does not work for you.  It works for The People, and is your legal adversary.


Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

Yes, the DOJ *WILL* add these lowers to the Kassler list WHEN they get their ducks lined up in a row. They've got alot of legwork to do before they can actually list all the different makes and models of these lowers. Patience is the key here. I am so not worried about it. I've got my 3 recievers and I'm happy. There is no way the DOJ is NOT going to list them, it would result in way too much political and legal reprocussion should they fail to do so.

I really wish people would stop worrying about this, it's going to be fine. We've got a little bit of time still to get some lowers or -more- lowers if you want to, get them, collect them, whatever and let DOJ worry about the kassler list. WE come out the winners here. In the end, the anti-gun fruitcakes can blame the legislature for 1. Poor anti-gun legislation that doesn't work and the DOJ for thousands MORE NEW "Assault weapons" in California YEARS after their so called snagproof AW laws. Kick back, relax, fondle your lower reciever and stop worrying about this stuff, you're going to give yourself either a stroke or a heart attack and needlessly so.

Or they maybe decided that they don't need to update the list and this means no new AWS can be assembled and they haven't allowed "thousands"( hundred's at most) of new AWs into the state.

This may be the politically palatable alternative.

The best advice is of course don't jump the gun and assemble BEFORE you know it is legal.  Moving too fast can get you in trouble, too slowly you might miss the window, but you can always make it a legal fixed mag unit.

Quoted: Or they maybe decided that they don't need to update the list and this means no new AWS can be assembled and they haven't allowed "thousands"( hundred's at most) of new AWs into the state. This may be the politically palatable alternative. The best advice is of course don't jump the gun and assemble BEFORE you know it is legal.  Moving too fast can get you in trouble, too slowly you might miss the window, but you can always make it a legal fixed mag unit.

Yup!

Quoted: they haven't allowed "thousands"( hundred's at most) of new AWs into the state. .

The FFL I purchased my receivers from was getting in 100-200 receivers per DAY.

Quoted: Yes, the DOJ *WILL* add these lowers to the Kassler list WHEN they get their ducks lined up in a row.

Because spending the money to update the list and thus adding many new AWs to the state makes more sense than simply doing nothing, which cost nothing, and allows no new AWs?

Its hard to predict what bureaucrats will do.  But doing nothing seems like the smartest option for DOJ. The only way updating the list make sense if if CAJDOJ is staffed by a bunch of really progun people who want to help people aquire ARs.

Quoted: Yes, the DOJ *WILL* add these lowers to the Kassler list WHEN they get their ducks lined up in a row.

Why? Because they "told you so"? There's several people who keep saying the DOJ are sneaky, underhanded, lieing people who can't be trusted. So why believe them now? Even if it's in writing somewhere saying they'll add them to the list, that would have no legal requirement to do so.

In the end, the anti-gun fruitcakes can blame the legislature for 1. Poor anti-gun legislation that doesn't work (TRUE) and the DOJ for thousands MORE NEW "Assault weapons" in California YEARS after their so called snagproof AW laws

How are they allowing thousands more AWs into the state? If the DOJ does nothing, they allow nothing. I don't remember who said it but someone made the comment that by not listing the new lowers that criminals would have access to the parts needed to make an AW. Well BFD. They have that ability whether the lowers are listed or not! They're CRIMINALS!!

But for the sake of all the people who for whatever reason weren't able to get a "real" AR before the ban went into effect I hope the DOJ does as you would like.

Quoted: Quoted: they haven't allowed "thousands"( hundred's at most) of new AWs into the state. . The FFL I purchased my receivers from was getting in 100-200 receivers per DAY.

So why are so many guys reporting they aren't able to find them?  Did you see the boxes of them?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: they haven't allowed "thousands"( hundred's at most) of new AWs into the state. . The FFL I purchased my receivers from was getting in 100-200 receivers per DAY. So why are so many guys reporting they aren't able to find them?  Did you see the boxes of them?

 Could it be because the 100-200/day were already spoken for? By your logic, the XBox 360 was a flop when it came out, since many people weren't able to find a store that had them.

  I've only spoken directly with, or visited, a few FFLs since this started, so I don't have nearly the experience in armchair detective work that PaDanby has, but I have seen enough to bet that it is well into the 1000s of receivers.

Your statement is wrong on 2 accounts PaDanby, because they haven't let 100's of AW in.  They aren't allowing any AW in, just legal rifle receivers that are transferable as long guns, and they are coming in in much higher numbers than you are guessing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: they haven't allowed "thousands"( hundred's at most) of new AWs into the state. . The FFL I purchased my receivers from was getting in 100-200 receivers per DAY. So why are so many guys reporting they aren't able to find them?  Did you see the boxes of them?

Actually, I HAVE seen the boxes of them, you would NOT believe how many I've seen, why can't people get them? They are a hot item, LOTS of demand and timing is everything.

Quoted: How are they allowing thousands more AWs into the state? If the DOJ does nothing, they allow nothing. I don't remember who said it but someone made the comment that by not listing the new lowers that criminals would have access to the parts needed to make an AW. Well BFD. They have that ability whether the lowers are listed or not! They're CRIMINALS!! But for the sake of all the people who for whatever reason weren't able to get a "real" AR before the ban went into effect I hope the DOJ does as you would like.

Because regardless if we want to admit it or not, there ARE those that are building these lowers up and not in compliance with SB23. If the DOJ does nothing, then these will become "MORE unregistered AW's by virtue of their features". If the DOJ does nothing, this story WILL leak and the shit will hit th fan in the legislature and elections in the near future, don't expect the DOJ to just sit on their hands. These are actual AR type lowers with the only difference being mere marks scribed on them that "make them different". Not some neutered Shoeless ventures FABjob. When you have the lower, as you well know, you have EVERYTHING and the rest is JUST PARTS, parts that can be ordered easily over the net

Not everyone follows the rules or "does the right thing" especially when passions about what is right runs deep on both sides of the table.

Mind you, this story WILL leak to the press and the buzz words are "Assault Weapon" which will scare the bajeebers out of every Lib and Dem in the state. They are going to want "SOMETHING" done about it, and, someone to blame for it.

ETA: And remember, the AG is ALL about "GUN CONTROL", our legislators are all about "GUN CONTROL" and they are going to want to CONTROL this too. How else do you think they can continue to protect their phony baloney jobs?

Quoted: Why? Because they "told you so"? There's several people who keep saying the DOJ are sneaky, underhanded, lieing people who can't be trusted. So why believe them now? Even if it's in writing somewhere saying they'll add them to the list, that would have no legal requirement to do so.

Indeed.  Simply updating the list is impractical anyway, with new AR-15 manufacturers popping up every month and the ambiguous definition of a "type" anyway.  If the Toyota Celica is banned, is the Celica Supra banned too?  What constitutes a new and different "type?'  Why can't Stag, for example, introduce their new Stag-16 the day after the Stag-15 is banned?

Like everyone here, I hope they update the list, but it seems unlikely to me that it will be this simple (which is why I only bought two lowers instead of a dozen or 20).  The DoJ aren't children.  Their job is to enforce the law.  The courts have already suggested the law is unenforceable in its current form.  None of them really care how many lowers are in the state.  What they care about is whether people are or are not violating the law and how they should react to that.  The law sucks.  The judge told them that and now thousands of Californians are rubbing it in.

I don't understand all the hand-wringing.  At worst, the DOJ does not update the list.  So what?  You can still build a functioning rifle or you can sell the receiver like any other normal AR15 receiver.  Now I understand that some are paying a premium because of demand and the current feeding frenzy, but buyers are in two camps.  Those who've already have real AR and those who never had the chance.  For the former, it's a matter of choice.  They like ARs.  They want more.  They'll pay and take their chances.  For the latter, this may be their one and only chance, so intent aside, either they're willing to gamble or they're not.  But it's not like they'll lose everything if that list does not get updated.  Everyone needs to pull back for just a moment and take a deep breath.  It's a no lose situation for gunowners for once.

Quoted: I don't understand all the hand-wringing.  At worst, the DOJ does not update the list.  So what?  You can still build a functioning rifle or you can sell the receiver like any other normal AR15 receiver.  Now I understand that some are paying a premium because of demand and the current feeding frenzy...

I think the current "group buy" price is $250!!!

A friend of mine bought a few at $200.00 including DROS, which I dont really get since he already owns several real Colt ARs.

I can understand buying one lower in the hopes the list will be updated.  worst case you are out a couple hundred or build a FABforgery. I dont understand buying 3, 7 or a dozen at inflated prices hoping DOJ updates the list.  

For those who do not own a real AR, moving out of Cali remains the best choise.

Its hard to predict what bureaucrats will do.  But doing nothing seems like the smartest option for DOJ. The only way updating the list make sense if if CAJDOJ is staffed by a bunch of really progun people who want to help people aquire ARs.

From a functional perspective, i.e., preventing people who acquire off-list receivers then building them up with SB 23 features after the receivers are added to the list and owners register them, I totally agree that doing nothing is the smartest option for the DOJ.  Politically, I don't think it's the smartest choice for the AG.  The DOJ is supposed to be adding AW clones to the list, and arguably it's been asleep on the job.  At least this is the simplistic explanation that could be used politically against the AG.  And except to people who understand the issues, the AG would look foolish trying to explain how not adding new makes and models to the list actually promotes the purposes of the AW legislation.  This would appear counterintuitive to simplistic thinkers.  What the AG needs to do is start adding to the list, then urge the legislature to address the Harrott loophole.  I think right now the DOJ is doing its research and will make a thorough, comprehensive addition of AR15 series makes and models to the list.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: they haven't allowed "thousands"( hundred's at most) of new AWs into the state. . The FFL I purchased my receivers from was getting in 100-200 receivers per DAY. So why are so many guys reporting they aren't able to find them?  Did you see the boxes of them?  Could it be because the 100-200/day were already spoken for? By your logic, the XBox 360 was a flop when it came out, since many people weren't able to find a store that had them.   I've only spoken directly with, or visited, a few FFLs since this started, so I don't have nearly the experience in armchair detective work that PaDanby has, but I have seen enough to bet that it is well into the 1000s of receivers. Your statement is wrong on 2 accounts PaDanby, because they haven't let 100's of AW in.  They aren't allowing any AW in, just legal rifle receivers that are transferable as long guns, and they are coming in in much higher numbers than you are guessing.

First off you need to read for comprehension.  The correct answer to the question is Yes, I've seen the boxes.

And the rest of equation is the political equation.  If the DoJ updates the list and thousands of these receivers get registered, then the political reality is the DoJ has let thousands of AWs in.  The fraction of a percent of people that know the difference between a receiver, an AR, an Aw etc etc don't count.  The 99+% of the rest of the people will see that as the DoJ allowing thousands of AWs.  You can piss and moan about a technical difference, but that doesn't matter.  The Press, the Dems, the Anti-gunners all disagree with you and will think they came in.

Who do you think is going to put political pressure on the legislature to change the laws?  Who do you think is going to win the political fight?

Or the DoJ can do nothing and avoid ALL the political fallout.  So what if the receivers get built into safe fixed magazine versions?  THOSE AREN'T AW'S.  No political fall-out.  Which way do you raeally think they are going to jump if they have the choice.  The direction that is going to cause the shit to hit the fan?  or the way that will cause barely a ripple in the great scheme of things.

As far as thousands?  I still doubt the number, how many hardcore gunners do you really think there are in CA that are going to go out and buy several of the receivers?  Couple of dozen members of ARFcom in CA, multiply that by what to get a more realistic number of closet AR owners?  and how many of them are buying how many receivers each?

Folks, first off it hasn't yet been 30 days since the first verifiable commerce of these receivers started in the state of California.  Second, there are AT LEAST 4,500 in the state at this point.  I have seen boxes with hundreds of lowers in them (and believe me it's a beautiful sight) hough
They'll be queitly updating the list with an update that is as complete as bureaucratically possible.  There will probably be a few that get missed and come into the state after that.  But after the second time there will soon be legislation in place.  Supposidly the wheels are already in motion for another semi-auto ban.

Yes, I too am surprised at the level of political naivete on this board.   Some folks need to get their heads out of Shotgun News and take a refrehsher civics class and a  politics class or two at the local JC, and read the newspaper daily.

Politicians are risk-minimizing animals.  AG Lockyer is running for Treasurer.   He will  not want any "mistteps" as AG to cause problems later.   Deputy AG (Firearms) Alison Merrilees is a known antigunner and before this worked for Sen Jack Scott writing the mag disco/chamber loaded indicator law.   She's likely doing the Sacto cocktail circuit and will land in some other nonelected office at the periphery of party politics.  

The lack of list updates in the past 5 years and sudden catch up will be couched as "our vigilance has determined that there may be new brands and models of AWs and we want to ensure these are listed.  Just doing our job!".   Announcements will be stated in terms of compliance and vigilance, and "aren't you glad we found these?" statements, with registration period opened as a "just in case these slipped in" measure.

Letting them continue to flow in and not declaring, and then waiting for legislative treatment would likely allow upwards of 10,000- 20,000 AR and AK receivers (alone) in before any legislation could take effect - and then that number is big enough to cause antis to scream.   We're pretty sure between 4000 and 5000 (a reliable bracket) off-list lowers now.

By end of January it could be 6000-7000.   Activity has dropped just a bit because lower inventories from all mfgrs who make lowers not on Kasler list/CCR sec 979.11 have been depleted - Stag went from a mid-December inventory of 960 down to 0 within a week or so.  I believe that inventory was supposed to last at least a quarter, maybe longer - Stag is a smaller vendor.

Ar15fan wrote: A friend of mine bought a few at $200.00 including DROS, which I dont really get since he already owns several real Colt ARs.

Why does your understanding matter?  It's his money.  

I also have 6 legal, registered ARs and an AR10.  And I've just gotten 4 Stags.

ARs are a great platform.  But this saves you from changing uppers ;)  And this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity - who knows if you lose one or more  to breakage, theft, fire?  These are politically irreplaceable and we just lucked into this new opportunity.

I can understand buying one lower in the hopes the list will be updated. worst case you are out a couple hundred or build a FABforgery. I dont understand buying 3, 7 or a dozen at inflated prices hoping DOJ updates the list.

Well, perhaps your financial picture differs from others.   4 lowers at $150ish = $600 is not a big gamble.  Most people waste that much in a short time going to movies, buying $4 lattes at Starbucks, buying stupid-assed video games for their kids instead of making 'em read books, etc.

For those who do not own a real AR, moving out of Cali remains the best choise.

Um, not true - some folks have family and jobs, etc.  Their whole life can't revolve around ARs.

And some enjoy the fight -  I certainly enjoyed being part of this and helping to kick it forward a bit, writing the FAQ on Calguns, etc.

For a butcher, baker, candlestick maker, perhaps.  But for some peoples' jobs, CA is the only place to be - and gunwise, other alternatives might be worse or similar (NY/MA/NJ).   If you're in advanced biotech, you think you'll get a decent career-track job in Kansas, where they're so idiotic they wanna teach "intelligent design" in HS science classes?   You think there's advance software development jobs or chip design in Indiana?  Naaah.  

If you lose one job here, even when things are slow, another one comes along fairly quickly.  You just have to adapt.   It also lets you accumulate assets to retire (elsewhere) earlier - despite cost of living and housing prices.


Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

Quoted: Yes, I too am surprised at the level of political naivete on this board.   Some folks need to get their heads out of Shotgun News and take a refrehsher civics class and a  politics class or two at the local JC, and read the newspaper daily. Politicians are risk-minimizing animals.  AG Lockyer is running for Treasurer.  He will  not want any "mistteps" as AG to cause problems later.   The lack of list updates in the past 5 years and sudden catch up will be couched as "our vigilance has determined that there may be new brands and models of AWs and we want to ensure these are listed".   Announcements will be stated in terms of compliance and vigilance, and "aren't you glad we found these?" statements. Letting them continue to flow in and not declaring, and then waiting for legislative treatment would likely allow upwards of 10,000- 20,000 AR and AK receivers (alone) in before any legislation could take effect - and then that number is big enough to cause antis to scream.

scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's. HCI & VPC will have more to scream about if the list is updated than if it is not.

Option 1.  Do nothing and people are stuck with FABforgeries with no new assaut weapons in the state.

Option 2.  Update the list and DOJ has allowed the manufacture of thousands of new AWs in the state.

Quoted: Quoted: Yes, I too am surprised at the level of political naivete on this board.   Some folks need to get their heads out of Shotgun News and take a refrehsher civics class and a  politics class or two at the local JC, and read the newspaper daily. Politicians are risk-minimizing animals.  AG Lockyer is running for Treasurer.  He will  not want any "mistteps" as AG to cause problems later.   The lack of list updates in the past 5 years and sudden catch up will be couched as "our vigilance has determined that there may be new brands and models of AWs and we want to ensure these are listed".   Announcements will be stated in terms of compliance and vigilance, and "aren't you glad we found these?" statements. Letting them continue to flow in and not declaring, and then waiting for legislative treatment would likely allow upwards of 10,000- 20,000 AR and AK receivers (alone) in before any legislation could take effect - and then that number is big enough to cause antis to scream. scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's. HCI & VPC will have more to scream about if the list is updated than if it is not. Option 1.  Do nothing and people are stuck with FABforgeries with no new assaut weapons in the state. Option 2.  Update the list and DOJ has allowed the manufacture of thousands of new AWs in the state.

I don't think the DOJ likes the idea of thousands of "potential AWs" flooding into the state even though most of us just plan on pinning the mag or removing the PG.  I really doubt that they trust us gun nuts to keep that evil pistol grip off of the lower though.  That would be the worst scenario to the DOJ, thousands (or tens of thousands if given a long enough time) of new assault weapons that are not registered and they have no idea where they are and who they belong to.

Option 1.  Do nothing and those crazies are going to start building illegal assault weapons that the DOJ can't trace.

Option 2.  Update the list and the DOJ has temporarily plugged the hole and given time for the legislature to close it permanently (hopefully this legislature part never happens).

Quoted: The DOJ is supposed to be adding AW clones to the list, and arguably it's been asleep on the job.  At least this is the simplistic explanation that could be used politically against the AG.

So who's going to attack Bill Lockyer for not updating the list?  Why would anti-gunners want to embarrass the avowedly anti-gun Democratic AG of California?  Why would the NRA want to attack him for this, ahem, dereliction?

Politically, he's safe.  The issue is esoteric and in any case the California Supreme Court has already said the DoJ is attempting to enforce poorly thought-out legislation.

The choices for the DoJ are:

1) Do nothing;
2) Go back to the Legislature to amend the law so that it can be enforced;
3) Hire a staff of four whose full time job is to add model numbers to the list (er, database) twice a day as they appear on the market;
4) Plan B, which is something that doesn't require legislation, but which is a permanent solution to the "loophole."

1) and 2) are no risk to the DoJ (they are already explictly allowing fixed-magazine ARs into the state).  3) seems impractical to me, but maybe it's a chance for a bureaucrat to build a new empire.  I have no idea what 4) might be, but trying to come up with it might be what is taking the DoJ so long to act.

My lowers are sitting on the table behind me, waiting for the shoe to drop.  They are very patient lowers.

Quoted: Letting them continue to flow in and not declaring, and then waiting for legislative treatment would likely allow upwards of 10,000- 20,000 AR and AK receivers (alone) in before any legislation could take effect - and then that number is big enough to cause antis to scream.

I'd like to see films of the Brady Center and VPC "screaming" about a minor and esoteric point of law at the most powerful anti-gun Democrat in the executive branch of the California state government, especially during an election year.

Yes, I would pay $100 to see films of that.

On the other hand, if you think the Republican Party will be taking shots at him over this, you might have a point.  The people who wanted Riordon for governor must be appalled at the recent flood of AR lowers into the state.

So who's going to attack Bill Lockyer for not updating the list?  Why would anti-gunners want to embarrass the avowedly anti-gun Democratic AG of California?  Why would the NRA want to attack him for this, ahem, dereliction?

His opponent(s) in the campaign for treasurer and in any future campaign for any other office, i.e., governor.  I don't think a direct political opponent would hold back  just because Lockyer is anti-gun.  It's an esoteric issue, yes, but the Penal Code mandates that the AG update the AW list and if Lockyer isn't doing that it then arguably he's not doing his job.

Just so we are clear, for ease of use, you only need two lowers, one fixed, one collapsable.  You cannot  justify to me that it is diffucult to swap uppers, cause it isn't.

And if your reciever breaks, you can have the orig manufacurer make you a reciever with an identical serial number, as long as you send the original back.  

The theft issue is legitimate, but if you allow one of these critters out into the wild, you are on my personal sh!t list anyway.  Get a quality safe.    360 lb safes are 300 bucks at wal mart and home depot.  They turn into 500 lb safes when properly filled.here

Rant over, back you your original programming...

Quoted: scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's.

But lets say some little bird told them about the thousands of AR receivers that the DOJ is allowing to be imported into CA. They'll scream about it, because they won't do the footwork to find out that the only thing we can do is make 10rd fixed-mag ARs here.

They'll take a little bit of information, and fail to do any research for the facts, and will spin it off to their agenda... just like they do everything else. This shouldn't be a surprise anymore - though playing devil's advocate on their behalf is pretty fun, in a strange kind of way.

Quoted: Just so we are clear, for ease of use, you only need two lowers, one fixed, one collapsable.   You cannot  justify to me that it is diffucult to swap uppers, cause it isn't.

Um, my 'needs' are not to be determined by others.

If anything, there can be wear issues, one gets blown up or stolen.  
Backups are nice esp on a politically-denied item.

And if you have mid-1990s Colt lowers, yes, they are harder to swap uppers on since they do not have front detent pins for the front pivot pin, requiring those funky twin-screw pivot pins that require a tool to change uppers.  [The ball-detent front pivot pins designed to alleviate this don't work as they can work their way out after 120+ rounds fired.]

And if your reciever breaks, you can have the orig manufacurer make you a reciever with an identical serial number, as long as you send the original back.

This varies by vendor.  Colt does this and apparently Stag does this.  Bushmaster and Armalite apparently do not, however (I'd be glad to know if this policy for either brand changed.  Apparently Bushy puts an extra letter after the serial # in the same typeface which makes it 'not identical'. )

The theft issue is legitimate, ...   Get a quality safe.

Yes.   I have a Nat'l Security.

But they can be taken from you while travelling - what about lost luggage when flying? Possibility.  And yes, Virginia, I fly in & out of CA to free states with several AWs and hicaps and ammo at least yearly, often longer.  Sometimes I drive to NV and they are stored in my truck.  Locked well, but chance always exists.

It's gonna be pretty lame if there are folks left out of this because someone is either scalping these things, or hoarding 15-20 ar recievers, just to be COOL.

Scalping is a poor word.  I do worry about people that are worried about a $50 or $80 price increase on lowers.  If you're that hard up, you prob can't afford to do a decent compliant buildup anyway, and/or have larger issues than your guns.

FFL costs in CA and their cost of living and doing biz demand a reasonable return on their time spent.  When your whole biz is disrupted by 100+ folks wanting to buy lowers (with a thin margin) instead of buying $1,500 Ruger Red Labels, you gotta pad the account a little.  


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Quoted: 2) Go back to the Legislature to amend the law so that it can be enforced;

The Legislature already ammended the law. It's called SB23. Pretty much prevents anyone from legally building any kind of AW from a stripped lower. Named or not named.

Soooo

Reporter: "AG Lockyer, we've heard that you allowed untold thousands of of new, un-named assault weapons into the state. Would you care to respond to that?"

Lockyer: "Senate bill SB23, which went into effect in the year 2000, prevents the importation or assembly of any new assault weapons into the great state of California, and provides for the felony prosecution of doing so. The only thing we are aware of is the sale of non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon. Anyone who converts one into an assault weapon will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law."

Ya know bweise, I really had a strong respect for you until that kansas and inteligent design crack. Although I share your thoughts on the ar issue your attacks on others beliefs and birthplaces should be taken to another forum, IMHO.

Quoted: Ya know bweise, I really had a strong respect for you until that kansas and inteligent design crack. Although I share your thoughts on the ar issue your attacks on others beliefs and birthplaces should be taken to another forum, IMHO.

Perhaps. But it's a valid reason to stay in CA, which was the  discussion at that time in the thread.

And that was not a crack on religion or locale, but overall sanity.  That was a school board, ferchrissakes.  No wonder there's worry about American educational system when that stuff gets let in.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So why are so many guys reporting they aren't able to find them?  Did you see the boxes of them?  Could it be because the 100-200/day were already spoken for? By your logic, the XBox 360 was a flop when it came out, since many people weren't able to find a store that had them.   I've only spoken directly with, or visited, a few FFLs since this started, so I don't have nearly the experience in armchair detective work that PaDanby has, but I have seen enough to bet that it is well into the 1000s of receivers. First off you need to read for comprehension.  The correct answer to the question is Yes, I've seen the boxes.

 That answers your question about why guys aren't able to find them? No, but what I said about them getting sold out certainly does.  And then I also said I have seen enough to make a bet on the quantity, I guess I could have spelled it out for you that I was talking about seeing enough receivers, but I assumed that anyone capable of finding this forum would be able to make the connection.  Several adult education schools offer reading classes, you should look into those. I'd suggest going back to kindergarten, but I don't think you're up to speed enough for that yet.

Quoted: And the rest of equation is the political equation. If the DoJ updates the list and thousands of these receivers get registered, then the political reality is the DoJ has let thousands of AWs in. The fraction of a percent of people that know the difference between a receiver, an AR, an Aw etc etc don't count. The 99+% of the rest of the people will see that as the DoJ allowing thousands of AWs. You can piss and moan about a technical difference, but that doesn't matter. The Press, the Dems, the Anti-gunners all disagree with you and will think they came in.

 
 You yourself pointed out that the people don't know the difference between an AR and an AW. So if the DOJ DOESN'T update the list, the people will complain that the DOJ is still allowing these AWs to come in, and not banning them. The press, the Dems, the antigunners, will still see an AW either way. So not banning it will be worse for them, than banning it.

Quoted: As far as thousands?  I still doubt the number, how many hardcore gunners do you really think there are in CA that are going to go out and buy several of the receivers?  Couple of dozen members of ARFcom in CA, multiply that by what to get a more realistic number of closet AR owners?  and how many of them are buying how many receivers each?

So then you have actually gone out and looked? Because it looks like all you have done is armchair detective work here, based just on assumptions, without even bothering to look at the numbers that have already been talked about. Several FFLs have already been brought up as doing several hundred each. Then there are others which are doing big group buys, but for which I haven't seen numbers, although I know its got to be high, well into the hundreds. I have talked to a few other FFLs that have transferred large numbers. And these are just the big ones that are openly discussed. Then when you look at the supply side, check out how quickly and how much Stag(just one of the receivers people are getting) got backordered.

 No, instead you do math based on how many members of ARFCOM there are? Calguns is where the most of this info is being posted, not ARFCOM. And then you say multiple it by what to get a more realistic number. "What" would have to be a pretty large number. Your guess is completely uneducated, which is appropriate for you.

Quoted: scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's. HCI & VPC will have more to scream about if the list is updated than if it is not. Option 1.  Do nothing and people are stuck with FABforgeries with no new assaut weapons in the state. Option 2.  Update the list and DOJ has allowed the manufacture of thousands of new AWs in the state.

Apparantly, you still don't get it... Sheesh, man! *sigh*

ETA: Lets just kickback and watch what unfolds. This is getting nuts..

Lets just kickback and watch what unfolds. This is getting nuts..

It's all speculation compounded by assumptions.  I'm waiting to see the Monday morning "I told you so's."  That'll be interesting.

Guys it's time we stop worrying about whether or not they're going on the list or getting banned.  These recievers are completely legal versions of what the Legislature worked 10 years on banning.  Just look at the pictures of the rifles being built with these at the Calguns forums... have you seen what a Stag looks like with the pinned mag?  IDENTICAL to one without it, and it takes LESS THAN ONE MINUTE to use that allen wrench to convert it to a fully operational AR-15.

Several of us, myself included, have letters written from the Deputy Attorney General that state in writting that these are going to be added to the list of Category 2 Assault Weapons and will be considered Assault Weapons.  Does it get any more obvious than that?  Why are they being banned?  In the words of the DOJ, "The [stag/far/dsa/etc] is virtually identical to firearms that are currently illegal assault weapons and will soon be added to the Department of Justic Assault Weapons Identification Guide".

Now I don't know about the rest of you but I'm one step ahead.  I'm thinking, "They're going to come down HARD on us, what OTHER firearms are they going to ban?".  Now is when you SHOULD be thinking about that FAL reciever you hadn't purchased yet or M1A1 you don't have.  We've opened Pandora's box and now it cannot be closed so prepare for the FIRE.

Quoted: Quoted: scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's. HCI & VPC will have more to scream about if the list is updated than if it is not. Option 1.  Do nothing and people are stuck with FABforgeries with no new assaut weapons in the state. Option 2.  Update the list and DOJ has allowed the manufacture of thousands of new AWs in the state. Apparantly, you still don't get it... Sheesh, man! *sigh*

Someone else summed it up this way.

Reporter: "AG Lockyer, we've heard that you allowed untold thousands of of new, un-named assault weapons into the state. Would you care to respond to that?"

Lockyer: "Senate bill SB23, which went into effect in the year 2000, prevents the importation or assembly of any new assault weapons into the great state of California, and provides for the felony prosecution of doing so. The only thing we are aware of is the sale of non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon. Anyone who converts one into an assault weapon will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law."

Thats the smartest way for DOJ to respond.

Reporter: "AG Lockyer, we've heard that you allowed untold thousands of of new, un-named assault weapons into the state. Would you care to respond to that?" Lockyer: "Senate bill SB23, which went into effect in the year 2000, prevents the importation or assembly of any new assault weapons into the great state of California, and provides for the felony prosecution of doing so. The only thing we are aware of is the sale of non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon. Anyone who converts one into an assault weapon will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." Thats the smartest way for DOJ to respond.

That response will only work up untill the point where a Dillon, Kliebold, Malvo, or Whiteman, uses one of the "non-functioning" recievers to make headlines.  At that point all that will matter to the press was that the AG could have/should have named the reciever to the list (and in the press's simplified way of thinking about things) prevented the whole tragedy.

For someone like the current AG it really boils down to a political calculation..... "Can I risk doing nothing; will the odds catch up with me while I'm still in office?"  This is the same kind of calculation that was going on in New Orleans for years.  "Can I use the levee improvment money to buy votes, betting that the flood wont come till I'm long gone?"  

I think if the DOJ plays this scenario smart, they can have their cake and eat it too; keep things quiet, dont give anybody cause to bring attention to this, graciously accept and process the registration cards, and be a little more diligent about keeping the list updated.  

The idea that DOJ is going to go out of their way to screw the reciever buyers is, I think, a little far fetched, since it would pose more risk to the careers of the DOJ'ers.  I dont really think they're going to get hot under the color and enguage in self destructive behavior over a few thousand REGISTERED weapons when there are probably 10 time that many unregistered weapons out there flaunting the existing laws.    You need to keep that in mind....every last one of these recievers is going to somebody who's conspicously law abiding; if they weren't they would have just bought a AR or AK from a private party out of state and brought it home years ago.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's. HCI & VPC will have more to scream about if the list is updated than if it is not. Option 1.  Do nothing and people are stuck with FABforgeries with no new assaut weapons in the state. Option 2.  Update the list and DOJ has allowed the manufacture of thousands of new AWs in the state. Apparantly, you still don't get it... Sheesh, man! *sigh* Someone else summed it up this way. Reporter: "AG Lockyer, we've heard that you allowed untold thousands of of new, un-named assault weapons into the state. Would you care to respond to that?" Lockyer: "Senate bill SB23, which went into effect in the year 2000, prevents the importation or assembly of any new assault weapons into the great state of California, and provides for the felony prosecution of doing so. The only thing we are aware of is the sale of non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon. Anyone who converts one into an assault weapon will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." Thats the smartest way for DOJ to respond.

Then...

Reporter: AG Lockyer, it's it true that these so called "non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon" are IDENTICLE to the ASSAULT WEAPONS already listed on the Kassler list except that they merely are marked with either a different manufacturer name and modle name or both?

Lockyer: Uhh, well, yes, they are.

Reporter: Again, the statement you just made, these are your own words, where you said they were "non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon" can be readily made to be ASSAULT WEAPONS, barring Police Agencies having a crystal ball to "detect" those who won't obey SB23, since we all know people who commit murder already disobey the law regarding murder, what's to stop them from making these "non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon" into actual assault weapons?

Lockyer: Well, we have the law, SB23 says that they can't make them into assault weapons, so, we're counting on the citizens of California to obey the law.

Reporter: That is like saying "Excuse me Mr. Badguy, but you CANT kill your boss and coworkers with that home made ILLEGAL assault weapon, but it's ok to use a weapon that is NOT an assault weapon, such as a Mini-14 or a SU16 to kill them. That's just not going to work. What do you think you could have done to prevent these unlisted recievers that are in essence, assault weapons, just not yet listed, from arriving in California placing Californians in further danger from these weapons?

Lockyer: Well, *cough*, umm, well, uhhh, we could have done our jobs and continued to list these "variants" individually thus preventing them from becomming the commerce that they have become.

Reporter: That sounds great, in a perfect world. Why didn't you?

Lockyer: We were analyzing the problem to determine what would have been the best course of action.

Reporter: In otherwords, you could have done something, but instead, you chose to do nothing.

Lockyer: We are doing something.... We're still analyzing the problem.

Reporter: Of course, and do you think that our current Assault Weapons laws in California have erradicated assault weapons and the threat of new assault weapons into California.

Lockyer: Umm, well, *cough* umm, no. I'm sorry, I'm very busy working on this issue, no more questions... But remember to VOTE FOR ME for TREASURER!

Reporter: Thank you AG Lockyer, in being asleep at the wheel, we now have many more of these potential BULLET HOSES flooding the streets......


Do you get it yet???

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's. HCI & VPC will have more to scream about if the list is updated than if it is not. Option 1.  Do nothing and people are stuck with FABforgeries with no new assaut weapons in the state. Option 2.  Update the list and DOJ has allowed the manufacture of thousands of new AWs in the state. Apparantly, you still don't get it... Sheesh, man! *sigh* Someone else summed it up this way. Reporter: "AG Lockyer, we've heard that you allowed untold thousands of of new, un-named assault weapons into the state. Would you care to respond to that?" Lockyer: "Senate bill SB23, which went into effect in the year 2000, prevents the importation or assembly of any new assault weapons into the great state of California, and provides for the felony prosecution of doing so. The only thing we are aware of is the sale of non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon. Anyone who converts one into an assault weapon will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." Thats the smartest way for DOJ to respond. Then... Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Do you get it yet???

So, what you're saying is that right now potentially thousands of criminals are DROSing unnamed lowers because they can get them? But that once they're named the criminals will stop trying to get them?

Do YOU get it yet???


Man, I REALLY hope the way you think works out.  I REALLY DO want to see all of you get as many fully functional "Assault weapons" as possible because I want to see Perata, et al come unglued at the seams when they find out all the AW laws, and tax payer money they've spent have been for naught.

We're AMERICANS. We improvise, we adapt. Where there's a will, there's a way. Plus we're CALIFORNIANS! This the home of the Entrepeturial spirit.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: scream about what?  Scream that you can buy the raw componnets of a FABforgery?  the law already prevents anyone from assembling them into an AW. Addidnt them to the list presumably allows them to be built into AW's. HCI & VPC will have more to scream about if the list is updated than if it is not. Option 1.  Do nothing and people are stuck with FABforgeries with no new assaut weapons in the state. Option 2.  Update the list and DOJ has allowed the manufacture of thousands of new AWs in the state. Apparantly, you still don't get it... Sheesh, man! *sigh* Someone else summed it up this way. Reporter: "AG Lockyer, we've heard that you allowed untold thousands of of new, un-named assault weapons into the state. Would you care to respond to that?" Lockyer: "Senate bill SB23, which went into effect in the year 2000, prevents the importation or assembly of any new assault weapons into the great state of California, and provides for the felony prosecution of doing so. The only thing we are aware of is the sale of non functioning, unassembled, firearm recievers which do not meet the classification of an assault weapon. Anyone who converts one into an assault weapon will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." Thats the smartest way for DOJ to respond. Then... Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Do you get it yet??? So, what you're saying is that right now potentially thousands of criminals are DROSing unnamed lowers because they can get them? But that once they're named the criminals will stop trying to get them? Do you get it yet???

Precisely my point! Thats how the goofballs are going to act, that's what they are going to say. It makes NO sense to US, because WE have the ability to think outside of the box. Mind you, the above represented the so called "Logic" of the Kassler list to begin with. You're preaching to the chior, brother.

ETA: We could be seeing the device that unravels our AW laws OR these lowers ill get listed. Eitherway, something IS going to happen. These are interesting times.

HAHA

I love the discussion on this board. I will agree that the easiest solution is to move out of California but also agree that most people cannot. Which is why I have a house here and in AZ [

You guys are going to hate me but I picked up 2 Yugoslavian AK (they stay in AZ) last weekend at a gun show out in Mesa, AZ. But I also enjoy living and working in CA, the main reason why I picked up 1 Stag lower to supplement my other Pre-2000 AW weapon. All it took was 1 email and 2 trips total to get one and the mark up was only like $30, which is a price I am more than willing to pay. Anyone that bitches about "mark up" on a stripped lower shouldn't be buying one at all since it takes alot more money to build up an AR than just a stripped lower price.

These will probably be added to the list. Simply because a small group of people out there are going to break the law as they are too stupid to learn them in the first place. That one case will put the media onto the case and it will be a runaway circus which will lead to the political downfall of AG from future elected office. No anti-gun nut is going to care that it's a fixed mag, have you looked at an AR lately? It certainly does not look like a hunting rifle.

The second point comes from the fact that many of us have recently gotten reply from the DOJ with this line:

"You should also be aware that we intend to add it soon to the DOJ Assualt Weapons Identification Guide. Therefore, the XXXXXXXXXX will soon be classified as an assault weapon."

Leave your idle speculation aside, I have my letterhead, signed by Alison Merrilees for the AG that clearly states as such. Oh and let's not forget the visit by the special agent and what he stated will happen. We are not just playing idle speculation based on hearsay and possibilities. The oddmakers are out and it look fairly certain (easiest bet of my life) that they will add these lowers to the list. Heck even the timeline is consistent as the wording of the letters have changed according to the process and responses from the DOJ fit the proper procedures.

And what if they don't? Well than I will have an extra AR that I can convert to full fun mode with a wrench when I am outside of CA where they are legal. Or better yet, they're not $500 like the VUlcan and Fab10 were. Price gauging? I would disagree. Pointless? Not when I am out in AZ doing full mag dump with my CA legal AR which I bought legally into AZ and which will be fully CA compliant before I return. I win either way so it's not a gamble, it's an investment.

C-C-Can't we just all get along?

Seriously, I'm just happy that we at very least had the opportunity to do this. How any of this will turn out....


Well, we live in interesting times....

Scalping is a poor word. I do worry about people that are worried about a $50 or $80 price increase on lowers. If you're that hard up, you prob can't afford to do a decent compliant buildup anyway, and/or have larger issues than your guns.

FFL costs in CA and their cost of living and doing biz demand a reasonable return on their time spent. When your whole biz is disrupted by 100+ folks wanting to buy lowers (with a thin margin) instead of buying $1,500 Ruger Red Labels, you gotta pad the account a little.

First, I was not directing this a bweise or any ffl's.  
I was not clear enough about these points and I apologize for that.
I see many good posts from B, and I did't mean anything personal.
FFL's are just doing business and the prices I have seen thru them are fine.

I'm talking about NON ffl's who buy up 15 NEW recievers for the hell of it.  Of course it's their right to spend their money as they choose.  But it's like a single guy buying 15 tickets to the super bowl.  Cause you can only use one at a time, and if you like to have different configs, and two backups, That's still 5 or 6.   15 new is either hoarding, or commerce.

I'm just afraid that these things are going to end up private party transferred for upwards of $300 when the announcment is made.  For recievers that used to go for $120.  

Again I haven't seen any ffl's screwing people, and bwiese is a reputable man who I don't know, but do respect.  

Rant and Clarifacation over.....

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