Wife and I agree, it was very disappointing.

I don't really care to name names or locations in this thread.

We obtained our original permits in 2006.  Went through the county training.
Classroom portion was heavy into laws.  What you can/can't do.  What you should/shouldn't do.

The training today is acceptable for 2011 Iowa permits.

Class was scheduled to be 4 hours long.  It lasted less than 3.

It was intended to be a Utah permit class, but still acceptable for Iowa.

Class got sidetracked pretty often into discussing types of guns, types of holsters, etc.
Instead of knowing when or how to use them.

I know the constitution doesn't say "right to keep and bare arms, as long as you have proper training".
So I know some people will say that we shouldn't need ANY training, even if it is bad training.

There was a guy in the class that doesn't own or has ever fired a handgun.
Completely ignorant of firearm laws.
My wife feels sorry for him, because I'm sure everyone left confused.

I felt compelled to interrupt to remind everyone that laws vary from state to state.
In regards to:
Having a firearm on school grounds vs. school zone vs. weapons free zone.
(we were initially told a person can't CCW within 1000 feet of a school, which is wrong for Iowa, and the instructor couldn't verify the law for Utah)
Do you have to tell an officer you have a weapon if he doesn't ask.
(he told us it would be in our best interest to show our permit with our license if we are stopped, which is not required in Iowa or Utah, and in my opinion stupid unless asked)

I bit my tongue when the instructor showed us his Ruger LCP .380 and said it was his preferred CCW firearm.
He told everyone it WILL kill an attacker, and would probably kill the guy behind him.

His rationale, "look at what the military uses, a 22 caliber bullet.  The LCP fires a 38 caliber bullet."

His home defense load:  12ga birdshot.  At least his justification was semi logical.  Kids in the house, and not wanting to risk killing neighbors.
He said "from 5 feet, it will blow his head off".  Well, duh.  At that range, the wad alone would kill a man.
I later told my wife she better never let a bad guy get that close to her.

Something I did learn...

According to the copies of 2011 Iowa laws he provided,

Next year a CCW permit holder can legally defend another person's life.  

The instructor also said that you will no longer be required to retreat in your own home.
I have not verified that yet.

The new laws also said you could use reasonable force to defend personal property.
The instructor interpreted that to mean you could shoot a guy stealing your TV.

I'm not sure that falls under "reasonable force".

Iowa does not have a stand your ground law- you still must retreat  if you can.  We all know that will be a case by case.  Example-  A woman defending her life may not need to retreat but a man faced with the same situation may need to retreat.  

As far as personal property you better hope someone selling your TV drops it and charges you with a Weapon if you use deadly force.  I would like to see the Iowa Code that says we can defend personal property.  If you kill someone taking your TV remember the thief's family can sue you in civil court.

I just re-read the code he cited, and I think he is 100% wrong in it's interpretation.

704.1  REASONABLE FORCE

"Reasonable force" is that force and no more which a
reasonable person, in like circumstances, would judge to be necessary
to prevent an injury or loss and can include deadly force if it is
reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to avoid injury or
risk to one's life or safety or the life or safety of another, or it
is reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to resist a
like force or threat.  Reasonable force, including deadly force, may
be used even if an alternative course of action is available if the
alternative entails a risk of life or safety, or the life or safety
of a third party, or requires one to abandon or retreat from one's
dwelling or place of business or employment.

The instructor said that the above meant you no longer had to retreat, which is wrong.
You are still required to retreat unless doing so puts you at risk, which is no different than it was last year.

The instructor also said a person can use deadly force to protect property.
That is entirely wrong too.
You can use reasonable force, which might be new.
But reasonable force doesn't include deadly force unless the bad guy becomes a threat to your life.

The instructor also said that the new laws allow for me to shoot a bad guy holding a gun to a cashier's head.
But only if the bad guy had demonstrated a willingness to use the weapon, ie, by firing the gun into the ceiling as he entered the store.

Like I said, a whole lot of questionable information in this class.

Iowa Code 707.6  CIVIL LIABILITY

      No person who injures the aggressor through application of
     reasonable force in defense of the person's person or property may be
     held civilly liable for such injury.
        No person who injures the aggressor through application of
     reasonable force in defense of a second person may be held civilly
     liable for such injury.

My interpretation:  If you act within the law, and it is determined you used "reasonable force", you can't be sued in civil court.

Now, shooting a guy who is walking out the door with your TV is not reasonable force.
But if you hit him with pepper spray, and he pulls a gun and you shoot him dead, that probably would be reasonable force.
Probably.  I'd hate to be in that situation.

Iowa code 704.4  DEFENSE OF PROPERTY.

  A person is justified in the use of reasonable force to prevent or
     terminate criminal interference with the person's possession or other
     right in property.  Nothing in this section authorizes the use of any
     spring gun or trap which is left unattended and unsupervised and
     which is placed for the purpose of preventing or terminating criminal
     interference with the possession of or other right in property.  

Thanks Reaper- I'm with you- I also hope I'm not put in this situation.  I will just let the person walk out my door with my TV. I may try to hold him at Gun point while I have 911 on the phone. But I won't be forcing the issue unless they have a weapon and come at me or family.  It's nice to learn something new everyday.

but that tv could be a weapon, the lamp could be a weapon a lot of things can be weapons

Very true but it's up to the DA to charge you and a jury to judge you.  One thing I have learned from my carry classes is once you pull a gun out  to defend yourself you better expect to be charged until all the facts come into play.

It doesn't appear there is anything in the law about hosing the guy with pepper spray or using a Taser.
Those seem to be "reasonable" to me.

which is the first thing anyone that chooses to carry needs to understand. massad ayoob put out a book "in the gravest extreme" which goes over this in detail

can be interpeted many different ways by many different people

Interpretation can be a bitch.  Especially if it is left to a bunch of soccer moms or relatives of the bad-guy.

But I guess I am comfortable thinking I'm not going to be guilty of a crime if I use something like those.

Yep and that is a part of a lot of Iowa law. I think they left it, and many other laws, that way so it can be openly interpreted to fit the situation.

I emailed the instructor last night, citing Iowa and Utah code and explaining why I thought he was mistaken about a few things.
He replied after I shut the computer off.  He says I misunderstood some of his points.
Which is good and bad.  Good in that maybe he did know and understand the laws.
Bad in that my wife and I both believe others in the class misunderstood him too.
A student who misunderstands good information is no better off than a student who is given bad information.

glad you guys are getting this out in the open, as this instructor is providing some poor information in my opinion...  

too bad you lost a half day of your life you and your wife will never get back...

did i miss it or why haven't you let everyone know who this is?  these guys are acting irresponsibly if they are teaching garbage and i'd like to know who to avoid...  why post up a reflection of the course and then not let anyone know who the course was provided by?

It sucks that iowa is a run for your life state. It apears through a couple recent cases though  that in an obvious good good shoot that is not set in stone. I hope that came out right ? Cases I.E. The old lady with the 22 that shot through the door in des moines. And the lady that shot the lady coming in through the fire escape in des moines as well.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

My intent was to show that what now passes for a state approved concealed weapons class is worthless.

The course was taken at the Davenport Gander Mountain, and provided by Casey Fuller, Utah Certified Firearms Instructor.  Firearm Safety Group.

from what you desribe, i would agree it would not be my choice of courses.  at all....  i think what you and a tiny group of others aren't grasping is the choice...  you chose a quick and cheap class held in a retail store...  you could have chosen any number of other classes held in this state or anywhere else, but you willingly chose the lowest common denominator...  it sounds as if you are probably owed a refund for what you actually were able to take from the class and that is terrible.  but the choice is yours, and you're welcome to take a better class if you're interested.

while i have a real problem with these kinds of classes, i don't get too worried about it since i know everyone has a choice they can make.  what i can't get passed is the demonizing of a law that liberated 3,000,000 iowans from the whim of an issuing official's mood and party registration...  instead of boobing why can't we spend that energy educating some people?

can you explain this one?  I never heard anything about her being charged or punished for firing her weapon....

She wasn't.   From what I heard the Des Moines PD reloaded her handgun before they left.  Like I said before it's a case by case on who should retreat and who gets to stand their ground.

she wasnt and that was my point. even though iowa is a run for your life state by law from the cases ive heard about nobody has been charged for a clean shoot without running. matter of fact in that paticular case the officer reloaded her weapon before leaving her home.

I'm really getting tired of your holier-than-thou attitude.

This class cost $100.  My class with the county sheriff was infinitely better and cost significantly less.
I had not heard any reviews of it.  I had no idea what the quality would be.
Yeah, I "chose" to take this class.  I have a limited amount of free time, and this was the only game in town.

By right, I should be screaming from the rooftops that the requirement to have any class is unconstitutional.
Instead, I come here to discuss my experience with the class I took, so others might benefit.

You keep begging people to support your cause.  
A better attitude would make people want to support you.

I think with any class a person chooses to attend also needs to walk away knowing that they will need to do their own homework with the guns laws to verify them.  You might even need to sit down with a attorney.

You would be surprised on the number of police officers who don't even know all the gun laws.  DA's needing to review the laws or prior cases on if some broke the law or not.   Everything depends on what if's

there enlies a problem as well. as i actually tried this after taking my class years ago. there are attorneys that are not quite sure of the laws either just sayin

I'm sure that I'll say this several times but when I start teaching something that will be stressed is what I provide is for information purposes and I don't assume to have all the answers or present them. Seeking multiple sources of information is advised and encouraged. In addition, getting hands on training from other instructors is advised as everyone is different. As someone who wants to teach I don't for a second believe my path of learning is complete. I hope to take some courses with CCA when the job situation improves.

I think people are expecting more out of these classes than some should. What you get out of is heavily based in your own background. Someone already very knowledgeable about the issues and details will find it boring. Same goes for someone who shoots competition, LE, etc at a BASIC gun safety course. John/Jane Doe who have never owned a gun or knew anything at all will get the biggest value out of it.

Value of a class is relative.

Wow, you're lucky that:

• Under may-issue, you happened to live in a county where the unquestionable supreme county law enforcement emperor  sheriff bothered to issue permits to anyone but his friends.


• Or, if you did live in one of those counties, that you are the sheriff's friend.


• Or, that if you could get a permit that it wasn't made useless by stupid restrictions like "for hunting and target practice only."


• That your sheriff bothered to provide training in-county on any sort of regular basis.  I was on the waiting list for training in my county for over a year, then finally begged (not demanded, mind you, because he'd just flat out deny me a permit entirely) the sheriff to let me take a private instructor's class.  I had to shoot at a range 140 miles away from where I live, and the class had to be put on by an ILEA instructor.  (And guess what, the ILEA instructor was Steve Anderson, and he ain't the sharpest tool in the drawer.  But then I didn't have a choice, now I do.  The training I used for my 2011 renewal was from Paul Horvick and it was excellent.)


• That your sheriff even made training accessible.  Under the old law, they could require you to attend  the ILEA or whatever training that the all knowing county training king sheriff deemed sufficient.


• That you paid less than $100 for training.  This was the cost of the class I took, as well as the class that is put on by the county whenever they feel like it, on a timescale that can be measured easiest using tree rings.


• That you got useful training out of your obviously and supremely competent county training lord sheriff in the first place, because there was nothing in the law that said they couldn't sit you down in a classroom staring down a useless powerpoint for days if not months before shooting a next-to-impossible range course.

You're right, this new law is BS and we should rescind shall-issue and go back to the old discriminatory system, because everyone knows that if joe-blow-sheriff can set the training standards, that they'll be so much better than those set by the new law.  I used two forms of training for my recent renewal, one was an affidavit from an NRA instructor, the other was documentation of small arms training with my unit.  And let me tell you, those guys at my unit that do marksmanship training don't cover the Iowa carry laws worth a crap!  And I qualled with an M16!  How is this acceptable training for carrying a gun?

Your one experience in your one county is sufficient evidence that the new law should be repealed.  Because the old system worked in your county, it aught to work in all 99, huh?  And if it doesn't, that's your problem for not voting the sheriff out!

Tell you what.  Judging by your sig line you're an NRA member.  I'm guessing (just going out on a limb) that the instructors were NRA instructors.  If you take issue with their course material, why not take it up with the NRA?

In the months to come I imagine we are going to see a lot of these training groups fade away. In my opinion, some of these training organizations are on the same level as storm chasers that fix hail damaged cars, damaged shingles on your roof, etc.... After they have fullfilled the initial surge of applicants they will move to greener pastures. They are here to capitalize on the moment.

It has to be really tough for people that don't breath,eat, and live firearms and self defense to chose a class at this point and time in Iowa. All PTC holders need to be their own keeper and know all the laws and read them for themselves to get the real scoop.

My ILEA sponsored/required class  seemed very opionated to me. They didn't really seem to be supportive of the new shall issue law. I took what I could out of the class and then dove head first into Iowa law. Did the class teach me much? Not really but it was required.

I believe after the first year the real deal Iowa instructors will be the only ones left standing and people will have clearer options to get very well informed training for a PTC. Buyes beware until then.

Wise words spoken brother.....especially the part about all PTC holders being their own keeper.  My best analogy would be that we all drive cars/trucks/motorcycles but not very many folks know or even understand all aspects of Iowa motor vehicle law....now I am not a big ticket writer (unless you do something pretty outlandish), I may stop someone and tell them "hey, you can't do that" but ignorance of the law is not justification for breaking it and if you are going to exercise your rights under the 2nd amendment then you need to be responsible enough to know the laws of the land pertaining to such.

Romper

Thanks Romper -  we need more police officers like you.

There you go.......left out the bicycle riders.  They have rights too you know!

Now that PCW training is a free and open market in Iowa, you can bet that the quality of training available will go up.  I believe that the private sector can always build a better mousetrap than the government and/or government employees can.  Training is no different than anything else in this regard.

i'm none too concerned what you're tired of...  you're the same guy that went in our GD thread asking for last minute pressure during the session from across the country and sucked the life out of the thread by saying "i'm from iowa and gov culver will never sign this bill"...  i haven't forgotten that.  people are working their butts off to gain ground and you show up and bitch...  try putting iowa's laws first and we'll all benefit.  this "me, me, me" thing doesn't work for anyone...

besides, i agreed with you.  sounds like your class wouldn't work for me a bit...  i'm confused about how you picked an indoor class and are miffed about it...  help me understand this.

maybe our wires are crossed here.  i'll IM you and we can exchange numbers.  this way we can cut through the black and white and get to the heart of the matter.  

keep in mind rome wasn't built in a day...

I had to jump through hoops for a year before my sheriff would allow me give him a written justification for a permit.
Then I waited another three months to take the class.  
I'm pretty confident my wife and I were the first two people in my county to get unrestricted non-professional permits.
We took what I was told was a standardized shooting qualification.  
Maybe it was easier for me to get my permit than it was for you, but then,
what the hell does any of that have to do with the original topic of this thread?

The "cheap" class I took was pathetic.   THAT is what I was complaining about.
Hopefully someone reading this thread will have second thoughts before taking this class, if they have other options.  
EDIT:  Or at least investigate the class better than I did.  I had the pre-conceived idea the class would have been similar
if not better than the county's classroom portion.

Yes, I'm an NRA member.  Aren't you?  
The instructor never once mentioned any affiliation with the NRA.
His certified instructor's stamp simply indicates he is certified by the state of Utah.

A couple of you are jumping on me for criticizing the new laws.
I don't think I did.  It wasn't my intent.
I believe what I was actually doing was criticizing what passes for an acceptable class for the new laws.  
There is a distinct difference.

Let me simplify:  I am criticizing the class.  Not the laws.

I hope you are right.
Even this instructor criticized the number of people offering training.

I agree. I think that there are quite a few Iowa instructors that are bringing a lot of great stuff to the table and I am sure there are more of them to come.

Then his class may not legally count towards a 2011 permit.  If he's not an NRA instructor, he'd have to be certified by their law enforcement academy as an instructor.  If they've got some weird system for certifying CCW instructors in Utah, their training isn't acceptable for Iowa the way I read the law.

That is pretty much the way I understand it as well.

Romper

Septic posted this in a different thread:



Casey Fuller is listed on page 7 of Utah Department of Public Safety's list of Certified Instructors Out-Of-State

Casey lives in Illinois.

Not wanting to sound like a jerk or anything.....but I live in Iowa, enforce the law here and Yes, I am an NRA member, a life member since the early 90's and dam proud of it, as well as having the ability to prove it.  And, yes I teach  a class here....having said that, why would anyone want to take a class from someone who has no stake in things here?
As far as criticizing other instructors.....nope, just wanting honest, hard working people to do some research and find a good instructor, someone worth their hard earned cash.......they are out there.  
There are lots of folks ready to accept your cash, and sign off on you.....but what is their background?

Romper

What is the ultimate goal of the class supposed to be?  Are there any guidelines at all?

I'm not sure it should matter what your background is, what your stake in things is,
where you live, what your NRA affiliation is, or if you are law enforcement,
IF you are a good instructor teaching the right material.

But what is the right material?  I'm sure that could be a new thread here on it's own.

I don't care if the instructor is an NRA member.  
My 1-year old daughter is an NRA Life member too.
Does that add to her teaching qualifications?  Obviously not.

If you have too much stake in a topic, you could become very biased and end up
promoting your cause instead of teaching what needs to be taught.

Who is the BEST concealed weapons instructor in the world?
Should he be disqualified from being an Iowa CCW instructor simply because he doesn't live here?

I think knowing the applicable laws is extremely important.
Should we make sure instructors have a law degree?
Obviously not, but where do we draw the line on a person's background?
A lot of police officers aren't as knowledgeable of firearms law as you are.

You said people should research and find a good instructor.
Explain how.
How can I determine you are a good instructor?
Has anyone ever asked you for references?

Here's the deal; you can take more than one training class.  Like anything else in life, we do our best to make informed decisions, but we aren't always right the first time.  If you do your part, research a training course, and it still sucks........take another one.  It's funny how firearms owners spend THOUSANDS on guns and gear in the course of a year, but get all worked up over spending a couple hundred bucks to learn how to use their investments.  As far as selecting quality training, we've been over that.  Research the instructor that you are interested in training with.  Check his credentials and references(any instructor worth their salt will provide these).  You're right that just because someone is a law enforcement firearms instructor, doesn't make them a firearms instruction god, but it does tell you that they have been through a two week instructor course and not a weekend class at the Holiday Inn.  The beauty of the new training requirement is that you can select a course that fits your needs.  If you want something focused on legal aspects, take a class that provides that.  If you want a class that focuses on individual skills, take one that provides that.  The point of the new law is to set a MINIMUM training standard.  No one expects you to be, nor is there a class out there that will make you a bionic crossbreed of Johnny Cochran and Johnny Rambo in the course of an afternoon.  

This is good advice.  As for Romper, I have meet him at one of Septics shoots.  He is stand up and knows what he is talking about.  best part not in a condescending ass kind of way.  Again that is just my opinion (sure anyone else who knows him will have the same).  Training is the key, sometimes we get good stuff and sometimes we get bad.  Happens in all sorts of training classes not just guns.  When it does happen just keep in mind there might be something to take away from the bad.

I  would like to know

Why are some renewal classes  

1 hour and cost $25.00

4 hour and cost $50.00

Don't these classes all accomplish the same thing towards the permit renewal, or are some people just making twice the money for the same thing

or as someone said earlier that the training that is on my permit good enough without spending the extra money for no reason

Does all the counties have the same renewal guide lines?

I am a little confued on all this

Be careful or you will stir people up again.

As long as the class is accepted by Iowa, the only thing you can really count on is that they accomplish the act of satisfying the requirement to take a class.

As we have learned in this thread, not all classes are created equal.  I took a $100 class I felt was pretty shitty.

I had previously taken the class at the County Sheriff's office, that I felt was a lot better.
I'm sure some here would say that class was even lacking.
Hell, I get the sense that regardless of the class, someone will say it is inferior to a different one.

All of the counties should follow the same guidelines.  Whether or not they do is yet to be seen.
And if they don't, I'm sure they will be challenged in court.
It sounds like Septic is about to sink his teeth into one county right now.

Regarding your question about taking a course if you already have a permit...

QUESTION: What documentation of training is acceptable for the application for a new Iowa professional or nonprofessional permit to
carry weapons? Can I still use the Iowa firearms safety training program Form WP-0?

ANSWER: As of January 1, 2011, Iowa law will no longer authorize the Iowa Department of Public Safety to publish the Form WP-0; it
will no longer be available for use after January 1, 2011. The following documentation will be acceptable:
    *  A photocopy of a certificate of completion or any similar document indicating completion of any course or class identified
above. This category would include copies of the Form WP-0 that were issued to indicate completion of training prior to
January 1, 2011. By reference, this category would also include copies of previously issued Iowa permits to carry that include
the firearm training certificate number that appeared on the WP-0.
    *  An affidavit from the instructor, school, organization, or group that conducted or taught a course or class identified above
attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant.
    *  A photocopy of DD Form 214 or other documentation showing honorable or general discharge under honorable conditions
from military service.

Those damn signs irritate the crap out of me

we have them in Huxley, give me a sec to walk out front. http://equip2conceal.com/



 

when you take your car into the shop to have your oil changed some shops charge $19.99.  some shops charge $165.  etc.  while you're going to get your oil changed either way there are a million different ways to do it and the content of that preventative maintenance and oil/lube change are far different between the $19.99 special and the complete vehicle service for $165.00...  the service you choose to use is up to you, but you know the content of the two services are different.  one obviously contains 'more' than another.  still, nobody is forcing you into either service.  the choice is yours.  since the content isn't identical you are welcome to see which you like best and spend your money how you see fit.

exact same scenario with the training requirement...

if you want to visit doug, just give me a call.  i'll help if i can.

just like reaper pointed out above, it counts, he's on the list, and he falls within the law as written.  i verified this twice.

while it sounds like folks weren't digging the course, it does conform to the written iowa code.