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Posted: 9/29/2005 5:38:03 PM EDT
I bought a 9mm for the wife and kid's. I will never shoot or enjoy the gun in anyway since it's a feminine caliber what's your thoughts........
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 5:52:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 6:34:52 AM EDT by RatTerrier]
For a chic thats okay I guess. But, YOU'RE the one who bought the feminine gun!!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 6:23:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RatTerrier:
For a chic thats okay I guess. But, YOU'RE the one who bought the feminine gun!!



I even sprung for 32rnd mags in case some LITTLE triger puller dog ever wants to shoot it.....
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:50:42 PM EDT
32 rds of 9mm..............................

8rds of .45 ............................eeeehhhhhhh about even odds
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:51:23 PM EDT
You bought a Glock 9mm! Shame on you! Next thing you know you'll get a Glock 21!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 8:16:47 PM EDT
No shame in owning a Glock 9mm. That's the only one I own and probably would ever own. And I do pack a .45 1911 99% of the time so I'm not a tree hugging liberal.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 8:34:33 PM EDT
I have two Walther P99s, one in 9mm and one in .40. Love 'em both!

But I guess the 9 has no stopping power. Anyone could take a full power shot from one.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:24:17 AM EDT
A 9mm is not a chump round. It does the job if bullet placement is right. Granted it doesn't have the power of a 45 or 40 but is not too far off the 357 Sig when using a 124 +P+.
Use S&B or Hirtenberger 9mm in FMJ and you will see the European loads are stronger than American made ammo in FMJ.
I'm not crazy about Glocks - I own a 19 and 21 - but I have nothing against the 9mm and am not afraid to carry one.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:36:48 AM EDT
hey did I ever tell you guys about the time I got hit just below my right nipple with a 147gr hydra shock, dude was standing about 8ft away from me when he unleashed it, didn't knock me offa my feet or nothing, just hurt like hell, I think if he would have shot it instead of thrown it, it might have done some real damage instead of the little bruise I got.


isn't that proof that a 9 isn't enough?


Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:34:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:

Originally Posted By RatTerrier:
For a chic thats okay I guess. But, YOU'RE the one who bought the feminine gun!!



I even sprung for 32rnd mags in case some LITTLE triger puller dog ever wants to shoot it.....



Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:42:06 AM EDT
I think it's pretty ignorant to bash the 9mm in general. My daily carry gun for over a decade has been a Glock 19. I started off carrying Federal Hydrashock's but I've carried the Speer Gold Dot's in 124 grn +P+ for the past few years. I feel comfortable with these. Look at the bullet weight and velocity on those and then look at some of same things on the .357 Mag that is give such high reviews. Do you guys really think 100 or 200 FPS is going to make that big of a difference? How many have you guys even been in a shootout anyway? Not me, but I don't feel bad about carrying what I do. The lower recoil and fast follow up shots are an advantage. Once again, it's all about the shot placement anyway. 9mm FMJ is a totally different story so please don't tell me about poor performance in military situations.

If a person carries a good quality hollowpoint made by any of the manufacturers with a good reputation, I feel they will be okay.

Maybe you guys want to talk about the latest shooting in Bixby where the guy took a .45 ACP Hydrashock to the head. He's still alive AFAIK.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:26:00 AM EDT
I've moved through the ranks of 357 revolver to 45 ACP to 9mm to 40 to 357 Sig. Having been a steadfast 45 ACP and 9mm Luger fan for around 30 years, I bought a 40 cal 229 Sig off of a young officer.
I hate to admit it, but the 40 S&W in the 229 has become my favorite sidearm, next to a pocket 442 S&W which I have on me all the time.
But overall, I don't really care about caliber as much as accuracy and reliablility. You can argue calibers all you want but I've felt adequately armed with a Beretta 22 in my pocket.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:08:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 9:25:01 PM EDT by acman145acp]

Originally Posted By Twobravo:
I think it's pretty ignorant to bash the 9mm in general.
Not nearly as ignorant as people who say a 9 has better terminal performance than a 45.



My daily carry gun for over a decade has been a Glock 19. I started off carrying Federal Hydrashock's but I've carried the Speer Gold Dot's in 124 grn +P+ for the past few years. I feel comfortable with these. Look at the bullet weight and velocity on those and then look at some of same things on the .357 Mag that is give such high reviews. Do you guys really think 100 or 200 FPS is going to make that big of a difference? How many have you guys even been in a shootout anyway? I have but it was with rifles and it wasn't fun if I never have to do it again that will be just fine........

Not me, but I don't feel bad about carrying what I do. The lower recoil and fast follow up shots are an advantage. Once again, it's all about the shot placement anyway. 9mm FMJ is a totally different story so please don't tell me about poor performance in military situations.

If a person carries a good quality hollowpoint made by any of the manufacturers with a good reputation, I feel they will be okay.

Maybe you guys want to talk about the latest shooting in Bixby where the guy took a .45 ACP Hydrashock to the head. He's still alive AFAIK.



Don't get me wrong I'm fully aware shot placement is key and a 9 is a decent choice for self defence.
I just think if you can shoot a 45 with close to the same acurracy and speed your better off.YMMV
It just seems obvious if you make a less than perfect shott with a 45 your going to do more damage? Most things aren't perfectly done under stress let alone in a gunfight......

danc46
You bought a Glock 9mm! Shame on you! Next thing you know you'll get a Glock 21!


I beleive you've seen my 21 and 30.......not sure

Josh-L
No shame in owning a Glock 9mm. That's the only one I own and probably would ever own. And I do pack a .45 1911 99% of the time so I'm not a tree hugging liberal.


I don't think theirs anything more fun to shoot maybe the ar's
Thank god for that.



JustinOK34
But I guess the 9 has no stopping power


Didn't say it had none just not the prefered amount.



danc46
A 9mm is not a chump round.



True enough its just feminine


danc46
I hate to admit it, but the 40 S&W in the 229 has become my favorite sidearm


Not feminine but definetly light in the loafers...


You Guys ever notice how people who shoot feminine calibers get all ofended............

I'm going to stir something up around hear moderators be damned...........

ET correct my FU


Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:59:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:


danc46
A 9mm is not a chump round.



True enough its just feminine


danc46
I hate to admit it, but the 40 S&W in the 229 has become my favorite sidearm


Not feminine but definetly light in the loafers...


You Guys ever notice how people who shoot feminine calibers get all ofended............




Light in the loafers????? First time I've ever been accused of that. Most of the time I'm accused of having lead in my ass! By my wife of course!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 3:57:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By acman145acp:


danc46
A 9mm is not a chump round.



True enough its just feminine


danc46
I hate to admit it, but the 40 S&W in the 229 has become my favorite sidearm


Not feminine but definetly light in the loafers...


You Guys ever notice how people who shoot feminine calibers get all ofended............




Light in the loafers????? First time I've ever been accused of that. Most of the time I'm accused of having lead in my ass! By my wife of course!


See what I mean talk about a guys caliber and he takes it all personal
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:00:18 PM EDT
Dan don't you know by now wifes are just for sammichs and pudin Their opinions don't matter........
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:27:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 4:30:32 PM EDT by RatTerrier]

Originally Posted By danc46:
I've moved through the ranks of 357 revolver to 45 ACP to 9mm to 40 to 357 Sig. Having been a steadfast 45 ACP and 9mm Luger fan for around 30 years, I bought a 40 cal 229 Sig off of a young officer.
I hate to admit it, but the 40 S&W in the 229 has become my favorite sidearm, next to a pocket 442 S&W which I have on me all the time.
But overall, I don't really care about caliber as much as accuracy and reliablility. You can argue calibers all you want but I've felt adequately armed with a Beretta 22 in my pocket.



All those are still light weights compared to my 210 grain shootin 41 magnum! HAR HAR HAR!! A.K.A. handcannon And I can put it where it counts! Lotsa lead + nicely aimed shot...ohhhh, thats a nasty combo! acman, when you shoot the 9mm do you do pushups to get all pumped up before you cut loose with that li'l thing?? hahahaha
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:42:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 5:43:27 PM EDT by danc46]
I once had a Ruger 44 set up with a 1.5x Redfield on it. Not hard to hit the ram at 200 meters every time you pulled the trigger. It just didn't interest me! Now a TC Encore in a 308 is starting to look rather interesting though!
Believe it or not, I've hit a coyote at 75 to 100 yards running with a Sig 239 in 9mm. It took 2 shots, one hit, to kill the coyote. A 9mm will work!
I'd say it would even work on deer but that would be admitting doing something illegal!
Acman, my wife's opinion does count! She makes too much money for me to ignore it!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:00:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 9:02:29 PM EDT by Josh-L]
You quoted me wrong acman, I didn't say... "But I guess the 9 has no stopping power."


Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:02:46 PM EDT
I just heard on the news that some dude shot a bigfoot 14 times with a 9mm and he still didn't die. What's up with that?



Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:29:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 9:35:22 PM EDT by danc46]

Originally Posted By Josh-L:
I just heard on the news that some dude shot a bigfoot 14 times with a 9mm and he still didn't die. What's up with that?



Bigfoot? Did someone mention Bigfoot????
My brother, a Pittsburgh PD sargeant, told me about one of his officers chasing a drug dealer on foot one night. The drug dealer was 6'8" or so, a big, bad boy. They turned corners and almost ran into each other. The Beretta 92 9mm trumped the bad boys's 45 - especially after 14 to 16 rounds were put into him at arm's length.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:29:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh-L:
You quoted me wrong acman, I didn't say... "But I guess the 9 has no stopping power."





Your right I F'd up....... all I can say is thats the quallity of posting you can expect when I start on whiskey sours at 3.30
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:39:29 PM EDT
Is it true that the size and caliber of the gun you carry is inversely proportionial to the size of your "pork chop"?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:42:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh-L:
I just heard on the news that some dude shot a bigfoot 14 times with a 9mm and he still didn't die. What's up with that?





dow...... No in my thread damnit......... Whers a mod when you need the mmmmm

Ok I'm on drink 18 trying to get ready for bow season tomorow........

BTW that's why i went ahead and got the G18 mags to go with it just in case bigfoot breaks in............

OH yea can you imagine how offended they would have been if I had typed what I was really thinking............ since a 9 is a bitch's caliber

I'm gona miks another drink and see where this goes.........
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:11:03 PM EDT
Nothing like posting on the internet while wasted.
At least after a hard night at work I can come home and get a laugh.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 1:25:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:
Is it true that the size and caliber of the gun you carry is inversely proportionial to the size of your "pork chop"?




thats why I carry a .17 caliber hogleg.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 1:28:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 1:30:19 AM EDT by Ndenway]

Originally Posted By Josh-L:
I just heard on the news that some dude shot a bigfoot 14 times with a 9mm and he still didn't die. What's up with that?







bout figures,since he was way over gunned, he shoulda used a straw and some spit wads, or maybe a slingshot and marbles.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 3:57:28 AM EDT
Admit it Acman, you are buying for yourself, come on admit it......

I hope you got a good deal on it.......
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 4:10:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 4:12:50 AM EDT by acman145acp]
Doubletap

Cause I stilll got a good buz
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 4:11:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:
Admit it Acman, you are buying for yourself, come on admit it......
Well in all honesty I did buy the g18 mags so If I wanted the equivalencey of a mini uzi I had the capability........

I hope you got a good deal on it....... Nope I let the bastard rape me on it............

Link Posted: 10/1/2005 4:11:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:
Admit it Acman, you are buying for yourself, come on admit it......

I hope you got a good deal on it.......



1shott is just as bad as acman, he's the one who sold it to him! Notice how he's been keepin quiet about this??Girlie men totin/ shootin girlie calibers......both you guys should get checked just to make sure ya'll have some balls. hahahahaha I wouldn't be suprised if the 9mm had pink grips on it!!
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 5:32:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RatTerrier:

Originally Posted By 1shott:
Admit it Acman, you are buying for yourself, come on admit it......

I hope you got a good deal on it.......



1shott is just as bad as acman, he's the one who sold it to him! Notice how he's been keepin quiet about this??Girlie men totin/ shootin girlie calibers......both you guys should get checked just to make sure ya'll have some balls. hahahahaha I wouldn't be suprised if the 9mm had pink grips on it!!





You have a PURTY MOUTH......
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:30:22 AM EDT
9mm is fine if you use the 124 grain ++p ammo. 1350fps is not to bad. I do like 10mm 357 sig or 45 better. I have a glock 27 and 19 for carry guns. I carry my 19 when I take my kel sub rifle that take glock mags. kel tec bag has 5 33rd mags with 9mm +p gold dots and corbon ammo.


glocks I have

21 with high caps 13 rd mags
20c with high caps and hunting barrel mags hold 15 rds
22 with 357sig barrel and 17 rd mags
27 will take glock 22 mags
19 15,17, or 33 rd mags
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 5:57:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 5:58:25 PM EDT by danc46]

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Originally Posted By danc46:
Is it true that the size and caliber of the gun you carry is inversely proportionial to the size of your "pork chop"?




thats why I carry a .17 caliber hogleg.



I bet you make the barrel smoke every chance you get, too!
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:07:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 6:09:04 PM EDT by Ndenway]

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Originally Posted By danc46:
Is it true that the size and caliber of the gun you carry is inversely proportionial to the size of your "pork chop"?




thats why I carry a .17 caliber hogleg.



I bet you make the barrel smoke every chance you get, too!



I don't smoke it.........but, yes its been smoked.



Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:20:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 6:31:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Originally Posted By danc46:
Is it true that the size and caliber of the gun you carry is inversely proportionial to the size of your "pork chop"?




thats why I carry a .17 caliber hogleg.



I bet you make the barrel smoke every chance you get, too!



I don't smoke it.........but, yes its been smoked.






If you'll lick a hole you'll smoke a pole..........

Had to ndenway

Whats up with ratterier bastard he's been talkin shit like a maniack lately
It's out of charachter......

BTW 1shott you think his mouth is purdy have you ever checked out his narrow ass..........he wouldn't make it a day in the JOINT
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 7:51:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Originally Posted By danc46:
Is it true that the size and caliber of the gun you carry is inversely proportionial to the size of your "pork chop"?




thats why I carry a .17 caliber hogleg.



I bet you make the barrel smoke every chance you get, too!



I don't smoke it.........but, yes its been smoked.






If you'll lick a hole you'll smoke a pole..........

Had to ndenway

Whats up with ratterier bastard he's been talkin shit like a maniack lately
It's out of charachter......

BTW 1shott you think his mouth is purdy have you ever checked out his narrow ass..........he wouldn't make it a day in the JOINT



Awwww....acman....I'm just pokin fun is all.....might still be a bit riled up from the Banner Road thread I started. lol And ya'll can stop checkin out my ass! Ya sicko's! lol And don't worry, I'll settle back down to my calm little self here pretty soon.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:45:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:


Whats up with ratterier bastard he's been talkin shit like a maniack lately
It's out of charachter......





think he's trying to up his post count, you oughta hear him on the other board talking bout windy walks and such, place sounds like an internet dating site with kind words and all.


Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:15:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:

he wouldn't make it a day in the JOINT




shit I wouldn't make a day in the joint either, would have to try and hide out like Kasinski did.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:43:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 12:49:24 AM EDT by brassjunkie]
I got to get in on this! While ballistic performance and max. transfered energy are important factors, It does no good for a person to carry a weapon that does not suit theat given individual. For example: a 6'6", 300 lb. or so man may not be able to comfortably fire most small caliber hand guns. Just as a 5'6", 130 lb. person may not be able to handle, say a 1911 or similar pistol due to size and or cal. of a given pistol. So I prove myself not to be bias to a given pistol, regardless of bore size or certain type of pistol, I state the following! I have owned every single, popular pistol cal. from .22 LR. to .45 ACP with a miriad of names like: Kimber, Para-Ord., HK, Ruger, Taurus, Colt, Walther, etc., etc., With that said, More people tend to carry a pistol that fits their ego, better than their hand, holster, or body. I must be a sissy by carry standards. .22 LR is not suitable for self defense! You will hear this again and again, my question to people who fall for this crap is!
What are you people smokeing? In capable hands a .22 is just as effective as a .45 for self defense! Yes a person with a .22 may be under gunned, by the same token, a person with a .45 may be over gunned! Example: Most who have a CCW permit are ill trained to carry any side arm, much less a .45! People do not take into concideration that in a high stress situation that you will respond differently under stress of a fire fight and most carry, but never spend at the range.
A walther P22 (tuned for reliability) is not an ego boosting, ear shattering, arm buckling, thunder buster! Is it effective? I do not feel under gunned in the least, but I will say that I would not want to be on the receiving end of 10 CCI Stingers or Velocitors. Ask any Officer you like, if they would
laugh at an individual with a .22 pointed at them and say That's a sissy gun. I bet you get a unanimous "NO"! It is all about shot placement! I happen to know a few officers and the things I have heard about .22's, crime scenes where a .22 was used, and the trauma caused by an "Inferior" cartridge, and I would be quite comfortable going up against an attacker armed with any weapon, with nothing more than a little bitty, sissy gun. I do not think you will find any person that disputes a given cartridges ability to perform as a defense weapon, that is willing to stand up and take a round from said cartridge to prove that it is inferior. That statement should put things into prospective for you. In the time it takes the average person to fire one or two well placed shots, from a .45, it is very easy to acurately empty a clip of .22's! What is not effective about that? Yes a .22 makes a little hole! What most do not realize is that, once a .22 bullet enters it's target it does not stop but rather bounces around in the target, creating massive trauma. Any one who has never been shot with a .22 is mistaken in saying small calibers are for sissy girl's. I can attest to that first hand! go on take a .22 round, THEN! come back and tell me about protocal for categorizing defensive rounds! I am not putting the hed
It sure is tuff being a 6'1", 185 lb. sissy, but I am willing to bet this sissy will walk away from an incident of this nature! It is not about what you have, but how effective you are with it!
hat
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 2:56:07 AM EDT
man, see what you guys started with a little fun, ribbing acman and his pussy gun and all.

acman, I think when you get tired of that gun, you should loan it to me so I can see if I been carrying too much gun everyday, of course I believe in controled well aimed shots fired as fast as accuracy allows, so I should be able to fire a full mag of 9s on target faster than I can outta my 40, and if I can't then all the guys around me better watch out cause I'm gonna use them like a bullet proof vest, when I clear that building runnin people will think I'm a hero saving somebody and all, when really I using them as a shield, I do plan on going to the house everyday with the same number of holes in me that I left it with, I don't have to outrun a bullet, just gotta be able to carry the person that gonna be stopping them from perforating momma way's little mans hide.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 6:52:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brassjunkie:
I got to get in on this! While ballistic performance and max. transfered energy are important factors, It does no good for a person to carry a weapon that does not suit theat given individual. For example: a 6'6", 300 lb. or so man may not be able to comfortably fire most small caliber hand guns. Just as a 5'6", 130 lb. person may not be able to handle, say a 1911 or similar pistol due to size and or cal. of a given pistol. So I prove myself not to be bias to a given pistol, regardless of bore size or certain type of pistol, I state the following! I have owned every single, popular pistol cal. from .22 LR. to .45 ACP with a miriad of names like: Kimber, Para-Ord., HK, Ruger, Taurus, Colt, Walther, etc., etc., With that said, More people tend to carry a pistol that fits their ego, better than their hand, holster, or body. I must be a sissy by carry standards. .22 LR is not suitable for self defense! You will hear this again and again, my question to people who fall for this crap is!
What are you people smokeing? In capable hands a .22 is just as effective as a .45 for self defense! Yes a person with a .22 may be under gunned, by the same token, a person with a .45 may be over gunned! Example: Most who have a CCW permit are ill trained to carry any side arm, much less a .45! People do not take into concideration that in a high stress situation that you will respond differently under stress of a fire fight and most carry, but never spend at the range.
A walther P22 (tuned for reliability) is not an ego boosting, ear shattering, arm buckling, thunder buster! Is it effective? I do not feel under gunned in the least, but I will say that I would not want to be on the receiving end of 10 CCI Stingers or Velocitors. Ask any Officer you like, if they would
laugh at an individual with a .22 pointed at them and say That's a sissy gun. I bet you get a unanimous "NO"! It is all about shot placement! I happen to know a few officers and the things I have heard about .22's, crime scenes where a .22 was used, and the trauma caused by an "Inferior" cartridge, and I would be quite comfortable going up against an attacker armed with any weapon, with nothing more than a little bitty, sissy gun. I do not think you will find any person that disputes a given cartridges ability to perform as a defense weapon, that is willing to stand up and take a round from said cartridge to prove that it is inferior. That statement should put things into prospective for you. In the time it takes the average person to fire one or two well placed shots, from a .45, it is very easy to acurately empty a clip of .22's! What is not effective about that? Yes a .22 makes a little hole! What most do not realize is that, once a .22 bullet enters it's target it does not stop but rather bounces around in the target, creating massive trauma. Any one who has never been shot with a .22 is mistaken in saying small calibers are for sissy girl's. I can attest to that first hand! go on take a .22 round, THEN! come back and tell me about protocal for categorizing defensive rounds! I am not putting the to any one, just trying to shed a little light for you (only a .45 will do!) guys.

It sure is tuff being a 6'1", 185 lb. sissy, but I am willing to bet this sissy will walk away from an incident of this nature! It is not about what you have, but how effective you are with it!
See what I mean?



See what I mean People get twisted when you say they shoot a feminine caliber although I got to give brassjunkie credit he didn't get Irate about it.

NOW Read my previous coments in this thread...... I'll quote myself...



Don't get me wrong I'm fully aware shot placement is key and a 9 is a decent choice for self defence.
I just think if you can shoot a 45 with close to the same acurracy and speed your better off.YMMV
It just seems obvious if you make a less than perfect shott with a 45 your going to do more damage? Most things aren't perfectly done under stress let alone in a gunfight......


Now let me make this clear I'm not that fast never have been regardless of caliber 45-380
I shoot damn near the same speed on a timer...... If you can put 2-3 rounds downrange to ever 1 more power to you I cant do it. If I could shoot a 44mag at the same speed I shoot my 45acp that's what I would carry but since it does make a signifigant diffrence in time I don't.

I try to plan on a worse case scenario a meth head that don't care anymore.. While a 22 to the head should work just fine what if hes 5foot and closeing and you just woke up no time for a head shot just put volume of fire on target. Me I want the biggest caliber I can still shoot with relatively the same speed......YMMV

Btw If i have time to aim I can put one in their eye with my buckmark just about every time at reasonable pistol distances..... if the world was perfect and i knew i would always have that amount of time thats what i would carry but if the world was that kind of place i probably wouldn't be
concerned with a defensive handgun

I watched a show on court tv here a few weeks ago where a pistol gunfight was caught on video by one of the guys wifes. Two fueding neighbors I wish i had it on video... It took place at what apeared to be less than 15 feet. Acording to the video experts their was less than .2 ~seconds between each persons first shot the guy who was slower hit the other guy i think between the two of them they fired 11~rnds pretty damn fast whatching it on video" let alone being in that situation" with one who scored a hit on the first shot useing a car for cover between shots .....the guy who got hit went down but was still firing didn't appear either one was aiming very well they were just trying to get rounds on target they guy who got hit initially took 1or2 more hits and died in route to the hospital i beleive"i know he died".

point being
I tell you what i have no desire to be stuck with a 22 and maybee faced with shooting through car windows to hit my target........a gunfight is rarely going to happen when the situation is perfect for you .........it will happen fast and furious most times and YOU have to decide what best suits your needs and ability........



It just so happens my needs aren't filled with a FEMININE caliber..........



Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:27:16 AM EDT
If thats the same video I'm thinking of, it took place in the late 80s early 90s, and one of the dudes had a 44mag, the one that got knocked down was hit twice with it in the guts and continued to fight while sitting on his ass, total lenght of time from start to finish was around 5 seconds, dude took two rnds to the guts, proves that a 44mag isn't enough doesn't it?

two years ago this Nov. my dad was caught in the middle of a one sided shooting that occured at the Will Rogers Parkway OKC housing project, he had just got out of his truck for a service call and was half way between it and the complex when this dude came running toward him yelling pops name to call for help with this other dude chasing him and shooting, the runner was hit in the chin and upper back with a 9 but was still able to keep about 20' between himself and the shooter, he said the shooter was shooting so fast he didn't have time to react to what was happening and seek cover, he said he heard several rnds snap right by him, by the time he started to duck the runner had ran into the front of his truck and was knocked down, said the shooter calmly walked up and fired the last rnd into the runner's neck, while the shooters reloading the runner jumps up and comes running around to the side my pops is on and tells him to call the law cause so and so is going to kill me, the shooter calls my pops by name and tell him to look out before he started chasing and shooting again, turns out that the shooter runs out of ammo before the runner runs outta steam, the runner lives to screw the shooter wife another day and my pops got to be on tv again.
runner took three rnds, once to the chin, neck and back, proves that a 9 isn't enough doesn't it ?

knew two dudes that took a rnd apiece to the head from a 357mag, killed'em both stone cold dead, and one that took a load of birdshot under the chin, and people say birdshots not effective at close range, guess they never seen any of its effects up close.

I've seen more, but you get my drift, it all comes down to shot placement and that persons will to live, or at least determination to get even before they go out.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:27:49 AM EDT
brassjunkie, more damn people (and deer) are killed with 22s in this country than any other caliber. I don't give a damn for caliber size as much as I do for shot placement.
I was one of the first SDA intructors in the state when the SDA law first went into effect. I saw one gentleman who was the state champion for fast draw ( cut down Ruger Blackhawk with wax bullets) who couldn't hit a target at 7 yds with a Colt 1911. He did remarkably well with a much smaller Beretta 21.
I learned a long time ago a 22 LR solid point has remarkable penetration. A sure hit with a 22 LR in the face is better than a near miss with a 45 ACP Hydrashok.
My family (grandfathers, uncles, cousins, etc) have been in law enforcement since the 1930s. All my life I have heard the most dangerous person with a gun is a drunk farmer with a 22 rifle.
I had my first 45 ACP 1911 at age 14, 38 years ago. I've had beacoup of 1911s, still have two Series 70 Colts, and have put more 200 gr Dixie cups down range than most people, not even considering how many thousands of rounds of 230 gr ball ammo.
The 45 you left at home because it is too heavy to carry and hard to conceal ISN"T as near as good as the Beretta 21 22 LR you carry in your pocket ALL the time.
I don't like Glocks for carry because of my long experience and growing up with a 1911 - I have to see the outside hammer to feel safe!
The only type of hammerless gun I carry all the time is a 442 S&W. In case things get up close and personal. My second choice of a pocket gun is the Beretta 21 22 - good enough to hit a 10 in metal plate at 25 yds.
For an IWB gun and holster, a Comptac Shirttucker and 229 Sig in 40.
For a belt gun, the Sig 220 in 45 or the 226 in 9mm.
So caliber doesn't really mean much to me. I'm going to carry what I can hit well with. You can spout all the damn ballistic info you want, Fackler or Evan Marshall, or whoever. The gun I have with me is better than the one I left at home! And I'm going to hit whatever I shoot at with a handgun in a self defense situation. Triple taps are so instinctive anymore that I have to concentrate on shooting just one round when the situation calls for it.
Yep, you finally caught on! I'm a legend in my own mind and if you don't believe me, just ask!
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:34:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ndenway:
I've seen more, but you get my drift, it all comes down to shot placement and that persons will to live, or at least determination to get even before they go out.



Pay REAL CLOSE ATTENTION to that statement. Ndenway just gave you the TRUTH, especially the last part of his statement!
Well put, L.!
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:04:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:

Originally Posted By brassjunkie:
I got to get in on this! While ballistic performance and max. transfered energy are important factors, It does no good for a person to carry a weapon that does not suit theat given individual. For example: a 6'6", 300 lb. or so man may not be able to comfortably fire most small caliber hand guns. Just as a 5'6", 130 lb. person may not be able to handle, say a 1911 or similar pistol due to size and or cal. of a given pistol. So I prove myself not to be bias to a given pistol, regardless of bore size or certain type of pistol, I state the following! I have owned every single, popular pistol cal. from .22 LR. to .45 ACP with a miriad of names like: Kimber, Para-Ord., HK, Ruger, Taurus, Colt, Walther, etc., etc., With that said, More people tend to carry a pistol that fits their ego, better than their hand, holster, or body. I must be a sissy by carry standards. .22 LR is not suitable for self defense! You will hear this again and again, my question to people who fall for this crap is!
What are you people smokeing? In capable hands a .22 is just as effective as a .45 for self defense! Yes a person with a .22 may be under gunned, by the same token, a person with a .45 may be over gunned! Example: Most who have a CCW permit are ill trained to carry any side arm, much less a .45! People do not take into concideration that in a high stress situation that you will respond differently under stress of a fire fight and most carry, but never spend at the range.
A walther P22 (tuned for reliability) is not an ego boosting, ear shattering, arm buckling, thunder buster! Is it effective? I do not feel under gunned in the least, but I will say that I would not want to be on the receiving end of 10 CCI Stingers or Velocitors. Ask any Officer you like, if they would
laugh at an individual with a .22 pointed at them and say That's a sissy gun. I bet you get a unanimous "NO"! It is all about shot placement! I happen to know a few officers and the things I have heard about .22's, crime scenes where a .22 was used, and the trauma caused by an "Inferior" cartridge, and I would be quite comfortable going up against an attacker armed with any weapon, with nothing more than a little bitty, sissy gun. I do not think you will find any person that disputes a given cartridges ability to perform as a defense weapon, that is willing to stand up and take a round from said cartridge to prove that it is inferior. That statement should put things into prospective for you. In the time it takes the average person to fire one or two well placed shots, from a .45, it is very easy to acurately empty a clip of .22's! What is not effective about that? Yes a .22 makes a little hole! What most do not realize is that, once a .22 bullet enters it's target it does not stop but rather bounces around in the target, creating massive trauma. Any one who has never been shot with a .22 is mistaken in saying small calibers are for sissy girl's. I can attest to that first hand! go on take a .22 round, THEN! come back and tell me about protocal for categorizing defensive rounds! I am not putting the hed
It sure is tuff being a 6'1", 185 lb. sissy, but I am willing to bet this sissy will walk away from an incident of this nature! It is not about what you have, but how effective you are with it!
hat



See what I mean People get twisted when you say they shoot a feminine caliber although I got to give brassjunkie credit he didn't get Irate about it.

NOW Read my previous coments in this thread...... I'll quote myself...



Don't get me wrong I'm fully aware shot placement is key and a 9 is a decent choice for self defence.
I just think if you can shoot a 45 with close to the same acurracy and speed your better off.YMMV
It just seems obvious if you make a less than perfect shott with a 45 your going to do more damage? Most things aren't perfectly done under stress let alone in a gunfight......


Now let me make this clear I'm not that fast never have been regardless of caliber 45-380
I shoot damn near the same speed on a timer...... If you can put 2-3 rounds downrange to ever 1 more power to you I cant do it. If I could shoot a 44mag at the same speed I shoot my 45acp that's what I would carry but since it does make a signifigant diffrence in time I don't.

I try to plan on a worse case scenario a meth head that don't care anymore.. While a 22 to the head should work just fine what if hes 5foot and closeing and you just woke up no time for a head shot just put volume of fire on target. Me I want the biggest caliber I can still shoot with relatively the same speed......YMMV

Btw If i have time to aim I can put one in their eye with my buckmark just about every time at reasonable pistol distances.....heconcerned with a defensive handgunhed I wish i had it on video... It took place at what apeared to be less than 15 feet. Acording to the video experts their was less than .2 ~seconds between each persons first shot the guy who was slower hit the other guy i think between the two of them they fired 11~rnds pretty damn fast whatching it on video" let alone being in that situation" with one who scored a hit on the first shot useing a car for cover between shots .....the guy who got hit went down but was still firing didn't appear either one was aiming very well they were just trying to get rounds on target they guy who got hit initially took 1or2 more hits and died in route to the hospital i beleive"i know he died".

point being
I tell you what i have no desire to be stuck with a 22 and maybee faced with shooting through car windows to hit my target........a gunfight is rarely going to happen when the situation is perfect for you .........it will happen fast and furious most times and YOU have to decide what best suits your needs and ability........



It just so happens my needs aren't filled with a FEMININE caliber..........hr


I did not get irate because I was not offended in the least. My ego is not that big. I was actually defending your purchase of a "femanine" caliber. I used to carry a 1911, weight is an issue if you wear it like it is a part of your body, in a CCW fashion. The topic was 9mm however a .22 is a femanine caliber according to some as well. My point is simple, carry what is comfortable for you, not what others think you should carry. I think the saying goes " a .22 in hand is better than a .45 left at home!" in any event I was bored and this looked like a good spot for me to get a rise out of some body!hisAs for sleeping! My 1911 I used to carry, is in the night stand!heIf I am in a situation where I need to react fast, I am not going to worry about a head shot, It will be 10 rounds to the target area (center mass) while on the move if possible, while reloading!hoot
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:26:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ndenway:
If thats the same video I'm thinking of, it took place in the late 80s early 90s, and one of the dudes had a 44mag, the one that got knocked down was hit twice with it in the guts and continued to fight while sitting on his ass, total lenght of time from start to finish was around 5 seconds, dude took two rnds to the guts, proves that a 44mag isn't enough doesn't it?

Sounds like the same video.........44mag isn't enough? well i'm not sure it looked to me like it proved a large caliber bullet will make your enemy pretty much worthless if you hit him even
with a less than perfect shot....... The guy who was killed got off the first shott and still lost.......
do you think a 22 would have put the guy down with one shot in the gut


two years ago this Nov. my dad was caught in the middle of a one sided shooting that occured at the Will Rogers Parkway OKC housing project, he had just got out of his truck for a service call and was half way between it and the complex when this dude came running toward him yelling pops name to call for help with this other dude chasing him and shooting, the runner was hit in the chin and upper back with a 9 but was still able to keep about 20' between himself and the shooter, he said the shooter was shooting so fast he didn't have time to react to what was happening and seek cover, he said he heard several rnds snap right by him, by the time he started to duck the runner had ran into the front of his truck and was knocked down, said the shooter calmly walked up and fired the last rnd into the runner's neck, while the shooters reloading the runner jumps up and comes running around to the side my pops is on and tells him to call the law cause so and so is going to kill me, the shooter calls my pops by name and tell him to look out before he started chasing and shooting again, turns out that the shooter runs out of ammo before the runner runs outta steam, the runner lives to screw the shooter wife another day and my pops got to be on tv again.
runner took three rnds, once to the chin, neck and back, proves that a 9 isn't enough doesn't it ?
My point exactly.............

knew two dudes that took a rnd apiece to the head from a 357mag, killed'em both stone cold dead, and one that took a load of birdshot under the chin, and people say birdshots not effective at close range, guess they never seen any of its effects up close.
Head shots are usually effective regardless of caliber...
I've seen more, but you get my drift, it all comes down to shot placement and that persons will to live, or at least determination to get even before they go out.
I agree compleetly I just think it's obvious a bigger caliber with close to the same speed gives you an edge with marginal shots




brassjunkie, more damn people (and deer) are killed with 22s in this country than any other caliber. Yep and more damn people own 22's than any other caliber. Btw I've know a few poachers in my time too lots of deer hit with 22's get away even the great head shoters fail sometimes.......

I don't give a damn for caliber size as much as I do for shot placement.
I was one of the first SDA intructors in the state when the SDA law first went into effect. I saw one gentleman who was the state champion for fast draw ( cut down Ruger Blackhawk with wax bullets) who couldn't hit a target at 7 yds with a Colt 1911. He did remarkably well with a much smaller Beretta 21. Persons ability
I learned a long time ago a 22 LR solid point has remarkable penetration. A sure hit with a 22 LR in the face is better than a near miss with a 45 ACP Hydrashok. No doubt but which one has more affect in the gut........


My family (grandfathers, uncles, cousins, etc) have been in law enforcement since the 1930s. All my life I have heard the most dangerous person with a gun is a drunk farmer with a 22 rifle.
I had my first 45 ACP 1911 at age 14, 38 years ago. I've had beacoup of 1911s, still have two Series 70 Colts, and have put more 200 gr Dixie cups down range than most people, not even considering how many thousands of rounds of 230 gr ball ammo.
The 45 you left at home because it is too heavy to carry and hard to conceal ISN"T as near as good as the Beretta 21 22 LR you carry in your pocket ALL the time.
I don't like Glocks for carry because of my long experience and growing up with a 1911 - I have to see the outside hammer to feel safe!
The only type of hammerless gun I carry all the time is a 442 S&W. In case things get up close and personal. My second choice of a pocket gun is the Beretta 21 22 - good enough to hit a 10 in metal plate at 25 yds.
For an IWB gun and holster, a Comptac Shirttucker and 229 Sig in 40.
For a belt gun, the Sig 220 in 45 or the 226 in 9mm.
So caliber doesn't really mean much to me. I'm going to carry what I can hit well with. Me too You can spout all the damn ballistic info you want, Fackler or Evan Marshall, or whoever. The gun I have with me is better than the one I left at home! And I'm going to hit whatever I shoot at with a handgun in a self defense situation. Triple taps are so instinctive anymore that I have to concentrate on shooting just one round when the situation calls for it.
Yep, you finally caught on! I'm a legend in my own mind and if you don't believe me, just ask!




danc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Ndenway:
I've seen more, but you get my drift, it all comes down to shot placement and that persons will to live, or at least determination to get even before they go out.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Pay REAL CLOSE ATTENTION to that statement. Ndenway just gave you the TRUTH, especially the last part of his statement!
Well put, L.!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get me wrong I'm fully aware shot placement is key and a 9 is a decent choice for self defence.
I just think if you can shoot a 45 with close to the same acurracy and speed your better off.YMMV
It just seems obvious if you make a less than perfect shott with a 45 your going to do more damage? Most things aren't perfectly done under stress let alone in a gunfight......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many times must I quote myself
I have no illusions of being some great gunfighter but I have been on a two way range before shit happens real fast and furious and it rarely goes down the way you think it will........
If you guys are fast enough to put a 22 in their head every time more power to you but your still carrying a feminine caliber.


Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:43:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brassjunkie:


I did not get irate because I was not offended in the least. My ego is not that big. I was actually defending your purchase of a "femanine" caliber. I used to carry a 1911, weight is an issue if you wear it like it is a part of your body, in a CCW fashion. The topic was 9mm however a .22 is a femanine caliber according to some as well. My point is simple, carry what is comfortable for you, not what others think you should carry. I agree compleetly I think the saying goes " a .22 in hand is better than a .45 left at home!" in any event I was bored and this looked like a good spot for me to get a rise out of some body! you guys get agrivated to easy. this is the most fun I have had in a long time!
As for sleeping! My 1911 I used to carry, is in the night stand!

Your last statement, above was the point I was trying to make, i.e. what works for a given person.
If I am in a situation where I need to react fast, I am not going to worry about a head shot, It will be 10 rounds to the target area (center mass) while on the move if possible, while reloading!
Ditto brother ditto my carry gun is usually a G30

Shoot that femanine pistol, it will not make you less of a man, will it?
With the g18 mags it will actually make me closer to a fat white gang banger with a semi mini uzi



I've just never got into the cant carry it because of size thing I carried an officers model 1911 back before their wasn't a CCW law Never had an issue. naturally that was in another life cause I'm a law abiding citizen now.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 10:30:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Sounds like the same video.........44mag isn't enough? well i'm not sure it looked to me like it proved a large caliber bullet will make your enemy pretty much worthless if you hit him even
with a less than perfect shot....... The guy who was killed got off the first shott and still lost.......
do you think a 22 would have put the guy down with one shot in the gut






well thats just my point, even though a marginal hit knocked him down, it didn't immeadiatly put him outta the fight, he kept firing till he was empty, taking another hit in the process, theres no doubt in my mind that a large caliber will cause more damage than a smaller one with a bad hit, but a big bullet put in a area thats not immeadiatly leathal is still marginal at best, afaik and can remember the video shows the dude didn't miss a beat even as he was falling, all people will react differently, some will fold up like a cheap umbrella from a non leathal hit, and some will take hit after hit and go on to kill the person that has killed them, the situation will depend on how allert, angry, aggressive and how determined they are to live.

I think it was in vermont or new hampshire where a cop shot this dude 15 times with a 9 while the dude was advancing toward him and the dude ended up killing the cop with his bare hands, then got in the patrol car and drove off, he was found a couple of miles down the road dead, they went to ruger p90s after that.

or the two guys in miami that had the shootout with the fbi, the driver took a leathal hit to the chest with a 9 at the start of the fight, and he continued to fight for an additional 4 minutes while taking several more hits, he killed two and maimed two before he got in their car and tried to drive away, the paramedics found that he still had a weak pulse when they arrived on scene, the coronor said that the initial hit from the 9 (124gr win silver tip) passed through his left arm and into his chest, stopping next to his heart and was a killing shot, the guy just didn't know that at the time, and these two guys weren't doped up or on anything, they had a small amount of thc in their systems, this guy was running on adrenline and sheer determination to survive or to take as many with him as possible, I have no doubt that an larger caliber would have put him down quicker, but I don't think it would have been immeadiatly fatal.

to let it be known, the smallest pistol caliber I own is a 22, and the smallest centerfire is a 38spl, everything else starts with a 4, my everyday gun is a 40 and since I'm a bad shot I carry three extra mags, and as you probably guessed, I'm not a fan of the 9 or the 357sig rounds, the 40 can be loaded up with 155gr bullets to a higher pressure than factory that will surpass what the sig can do with the 124s at max pressure, the factories have down loaded the 40 just as they have the 357mag, because certain popular pistols can't handle a full up load.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 11:02:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ndenway: I think he's trying to up his post count, you oughta hear him on the other board talking bout windy walks and such, place sounds like an internet dating site with kind words and all.


Oh hush! Its working over there anyways! Yer just jealous!! lol


Originally Posted By brassjunkie:
I was actually defending your purchase of a "femanine" caliber. The topic was 9mm however a .22 is a femanine caliber according to some as well. Shoot that femanine pistol, it will not make you less of a man, will it?



And I think he's makin fun of you shootin a little gun.....hahahaha. I'm kidding, I just think its fun to rib acman a little......been so long since I've seen the li'l fella, I just miss him is all.

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