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Posted: 6/8/2009 2:59:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 3:17:48 PM EST by Neo1130]
Had an appointment today at the VA hospital and everything was going good... Until I get onto I-5... Minding my own business, jerk wad comes up right behind me and INTO my lane... Not just a little bit, but at least 1/2 of his car... I had to swerve out into another lane to keep from getting hit... Okay, typical WA driver... I'll let it slide... 1/4 of a mile later, same thing different lane... He drops down to 45 MPH and I keep going... Notice him doing the same fucking thing! Okay, time for me to pull to the right lane, wait for dipshit to pass and call it in... I call in it, give all necessary info and they say "We'll have someone on the way..." Okay, hangup... He does the same thing yet AGAIN! I mean 1/2-3/4 of his vehicle in another lane... I counted those up to about 10 times then quit counting... He gets over and decides to get off the free way... Coming within two feet of a trucker with a flat tire, almost hitting the driver, not the truck! At this time, I flash my high beams at the guy and signal him to pull over with no success...

Gets off at Mounts road and starts to head towards Olympic Arms... The first big turn there, he goes ALL the way into oncoming traffic nearly getting in a head on with three cars... Gets back into his lane and almost rear ends someone and then proceeds to pass with oncoming traffic running a couple of people off the road... I tried to get in front of him and try to stop him and unfortunately, he swerves... I call the 5-0 again and give them an update on location... Okay... So about 5 miles later and 10 minutes pass, no sign of any sort of LEO anywhere... We now turn down reservation road and yet another call to 911 to give another update... In the mean time, he almost got into another 3-4 head on collisions... At 50 mph, would NOT have been pretty...

Now the speed is picking up to 70 mph and a sharp corner with a stop sign and about 10 cars backed up... Drunk ass STOMPS his brakes, flys into oncoming and into the ditch, into a tree... Everyone gets out and sees if the guy is okay, then proceed to help him get out of the ditch... Nearly killing a few people, I was NOT about to let this fucker fly away... There was a big Samoan dude next to his drivers window and I instructed him to not let this guy go anywhere... I call 911 again and let them know the individual had crashed with no other vehicles involved... Guy was still trying to back out of the ditch in 2wd, so he wasn't going anywhere... I get to his window and tell him to turn off the vehicle and get out... He gets out, pissed like he wanted to kill me and starts to walk towards me, I put my hand on my waist where my pistol was and told him to stay where he was and not make another move towards me...

About 2 minutes after the last call I made the Thurston Co Sheriff shows up and can't do anything because it is State jurisdiction... He takes statements and I give my CPL to him... Then another town cop shows up... 5-6 more minutes go by and THEN the hot State Patrol Officer shows along with the Fire Dept. Take his vitals and he is fine medical wise... Then the officers surround the dude and question him... I think he tried to tell them I was going to pull my pistol on him... All I saw was him making a motion towards his waist and point to me... Cops didn't seem to care! LOL! One turned around and gave a thumbs up to me!

Damn, my adrenaline is still pumping! I just don't know what I would have done if this individual killed or greatly injured someone... But the amount of time it took the police to arrive, kinda had me a bit concerned... Funny thing is, this guy was in a company vehicle for some concrete company... I bet tomorrow he doesn't have a job, if it hasn't gotten to his boss already... I just wish I could have done something before he crashed and possibly into others... But, I mean almost 20 minutes to respond to a DUI? It wasn't no little swerve between lanes either which I let the operators know...

Edited for paragraphs!
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:03:19 PM EST
Where's Strat for the "strict liability" thread?
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:10:15 PM EST
Ok, I stared at your post for a good 10 minutes. I still can't see any fucking sailboat.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:11:00 PM EST
Same thing happened to me when I was riding with my BIL. Only difference was the guy had two small kids in the car with him. When he crashed we pulled in behind so he could not go anywhere. The lady that owned the house was home and called the state patrol. They showed up in five minutes.
Guess what? The guy was in a diabetic comma. The stater told the lady to get some sugar, quick!
Two minutes later Medic 1 showed up. Kids were alright.
Good cop for knowing what's going on.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:15:45 PM EST
Sorry Neo, I looked at that and wasn't about to wade through it. Paragraphs are your friend.

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
Ok, I stared at your post for a good 10 minutes. I still can't see any fucking sailboat.


Did you mean failboat?

Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:16:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15L:
Same thing happened to me when I was riding with my BIL. Only difference was the guy had two small kids in the car with him. When he crashed we pulled in behind so he could not go anywhere. The lady that owned the house was home and called the state patrol. They showed up in five minutes.
Guess what? The guy was in a diabetic comma. The stater told the lady to get some sugar, quick!
Two minutes later Medic 1 showed up. Kids were alright.
Good cop for knowing what's going on.


I thought that may have been it too, but still, actions need to be taken... But when the fire dept showed up and took vitals, then took off, I am sure it wasn't any diabetic coma... If it was diabetic I am sure the fire dept would have at least given him something and called an ambulance...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:42:48 PM EST
you should have pitted him
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:44:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP:
you should have pitted him


Haha, I don't have that much training in pursuit...

But I will have to admit...


It was the most amazing thing I ever saw!

Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:45:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
There was a big Samoan dude next to his drivers window and I instructed him to not let this guy go anywhere... I call 911 again and let them know the individual had crashed with no other vehicles involved... Guy was still trying to back out of the ditch in 2wd, so he wasn't going anywhere... I get to his window and tell him to turn off the vehicle and get out... He gets out, pissed like he wanted to kill me and starts to walk towards me, I put my hand on my waist where my pistol was and told him to stay where he was and not make another move towards me...

The big Samoan wasn't enough, you went to preparing to draw down on the drunk driver mode?

Yes, I'm an asshole Neo, but I want to get this out there. Slow down and think. In the time you have been around here, and the stuff you have posted, I would question your judgement when it comes to carrying, much less preparing to draw. Drunk guy looking pissed-off is not life threatening. Should you even be carrying?
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:46:04 PM EST
what kind of beer was it?
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:47:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Teleportgrend:
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
There was a big Samoan dude next to his drivers window and I instructed him to not let this guy go anywhere... I call 911 again and let them know the individual had crashed with no other vehicles involved... Guy was still trying to back out of the ditch in 2wd, so he wasn't going anywhere... I get to his window and tell him to turn off the vehicle and get out... He gets out, pissed like he wanted to kill me and starts to walk towards me, I put my hand on my waist where my pistol was and told him to stay where he was and not make another move towards me...

The big Samoan wasn't enough, you went to preparing to draw down on the drunk driver mode?

Yes, I'm an asshole Neo, but I want to get this out there. Slow down and think. In the time you have been around here, and the stuff you have posted, I would question your judgement when it comes to carrying, much less preparing to draw. Drunk guy looking pissed-off is not life threatening. Should you even be carrying?


No, not an asshole... The big Samoan dude? I don't know where he was when this was going on... But if you had someone coming up to you like he was going to beat your ass, would you not prepare yourself? I didn't draw, I was prepared to draw...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:54:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:55:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 3:57:21 PM EST by YOPD]
Originally Posted By Neo1130:But if you had someone coming up to you like he was going to beat your ass, would you not prepare yourself? I didn't draw, I was prepared to draw...


Ask yourself, is deadly force the proper response to an obviously angry man coming at you?

If you come up with anything other than a simple "no", than stop carrying a gun until you learn when it is proper to use it.

ETA: Yes, life sucks, people suck, but there are at least two things you should have done instead of reaching near your gun. One was walk away, the other was drive away. Anyone could come up with at least three more in a very short amount of time.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:17:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 4:28:10 PM EST by Neo1130]
I don't want to get into this argument again, but I have been told by MULTIPLE people, police officers included, that since I am disabled, cannot run from anything of the sort, cannot fight in return, I am able to pull a weapon... So, if I can't run, and cannot fight to defend myself, what other option would there be? And I was simply preparing myself which I don't see as a bad thing... How did I know he wasn't going to pull the knife from his belt or a gun that was hidden? If he did, I would be prepared for it... I have had a gun pulled on me before for trying to stop someone from driving drunk... So, be prepared or no?

Also, since no one knows the real me, please wait until you meet me at LCR to make assumptions that I should not be CCing... I am sure plenty of you have had down times in your life, I had mine and sought help and am on a road to recovery... Why should I not CC? I don't have any felonies, no criminal record, never robbed/stolen from anyone, have a good sense of judgment... My psychiatrist doesn't see a problem with me CC... I don't see a problem, my wife doesn't see a problem... People I know personally, not via internet, don't see any problems... So please don't prematurely pass judgment on whether or not I should CC... Not attacking, I am just stating a case here... So please, don't take it as an attack...

And before you start to say, "Man this guy has a lot of shit happen to him" yes, I get out ALOT... Almost never really home... So my chances of running into this stuff is higher than most...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:22:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
I don't want to get into this argument again, but I have been told by MULTIPLE people, police officers included, that since I am disabled, cannot run from anything of the sort, cannot fight in return, I am able to pull a weapon... So, if I can't run, and cannot fight to defend myself, what other option would there be? And I was simply preparing myself which I don't see as a bad thing... How did I know he wasn't going to pull the knife from his belt or a gun that was hidden? If he did, I would be prepared for it... I have had a gun pulled on me before for trying to stop someone from driving drunk... So, be prepared or no?

Also, since no one knows the real me, please wait until you meet me at LCR to make assumptions that I should not be CCing... I am sure plenty of you have had down times in your life, I had mine and sought help and am on a road to recovery... Why should I not CC? I don't have any felonies, no criminal record, never robbed/stolen from anyone, have a good sense of judgment... My psychiatrist doesn't see a problem with me CC... I don't see a problem, my wife doesn't see a problem... People I know personally, not via internet, don't see any problems... So please don't prematurely pass judgment on whether or not I should CC... Not attacking, I am just stating a case here... So please, don't take it as an attack...



makers mark goes a looonnngggg ways at an lcr.......
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:27:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Athompson:
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
I don't want to get into this argument again, but I have been told by MULTIPLE people, police officers included, that since I am disabled, cannot run from anything of the sort, cannot fight in return, I am able to pull a weapon... So, if I can't run, and cannot fight to defend myself, what other option would there be? And I was simply preparing myself which I don't see as a bad thing... How did I know he wasn't going to pull the knife from his belt or a gun that was hidden? If he did, I would be prepared for it... I have had a gun pulled on me before for trying to stop someone from driving drunk... So, be prepared or no?

Also, since no one knows the real me, please wait until you meet me at LCR to make assumptions that I should not be CCing... I am sure plenty of you have had down times in your life, I had mine and sought help and am on a road to recovery... Why should I not CC? I don't have any felonies, no criminal record, never robbed/stolen from anyone, have a good sense of judgment... My psychiatrist doesn't see a problem with me CC... I don't see a problem, my wife doesn't see a problem... People I know personally, not via internet, don't see any problems... So please don't prematurely pass judgment on whether or not I should CC... Not attacking, I am just stating a case here... So please, don't take it as an attack...



makers mark goes a looonnngggg ways at an lcr.......



I've seen it go pretty quick.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:28:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By PCR-00:

Originally Posted By Athompson:
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
I don't want to get into this argument again, but I have been told by MULTIPLE people, police officers included, that since I am disabled, cannot run from anything of the sort, cannot fight in return, I am able to pull a weapon... So, if I can't run, and cannot fight to defend myself, what other option would there be? And I was simply preparing myself which I don't see as a bad thing... How did I know he wasn't going to pull the knife from his belt or a gun that was hidden? If he did, I would be prepared for it... I have had a gun pulled on me before for trying to stop someone from driving drunk... So, be prepared or no?

Also, since no one knows the real me, please wait until you meet me at LCR to make assumptions that I should not be CCing... I am sure plenty of you have had down times in your life, I had mine and sought help and am on a road to recovery... Why should I not CC? I don't have any felonies, no criminal record, never robbed/stolen from anyone, have a good sense of judgment... My psychiatrist doesn't see a problem with me CC... I don't see a problem, my wife doesn't see a problem... People I know personally, not via internet, don't see any problems... So please don't prematurely pass judgment on whether or not I should CC... Not attacking, I am just stating a case here... So please, don't take it as an attack...



makers mark goes a looonnngggg ways at an lcr.......



I've seen it go pretty quick.



with you and i there it does...i was more referencing ways to smooth over past transgressions and meet the players....
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:29:53 PM EST
I've got some long island mix that can go a long way if anyone is interested! I've got mostly bitch liquor and beer... Which would go quicker? i.e. which should I bring?
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:30:33 PM EST
did someone say long islands???????
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:30:39 PM EST
bring everything...it's the only way to be sure...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:31:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Athompson:
Originally Posted By PCR-00:

Originally Posted By Athompson:
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
I don't want to get into this argument again, but I have been told by MULTIPLE people, police officers included, that since I am disabled, cannot run from anything of the sort, cannot fight in return, I am able to pull a weapon... So, if I can't run, and cannot fight to defend myself, what other option would there be? And I was simply preparing myself which I don't see as a bad thing... How did I know he wasn't going to pull the knife from his belt or a gun that was hidden? If he did, I would be prepared for it... I have had a gun pulled on me before for trying to stop someone from driving drunk... So, be prepared or no?

Also, since no one knows the real me, please wait until you meet me at LCR to make assumptions that I should not be CCing... I am sure plenty of you have had down times in your life, I had mine and sought help and am on a road to recovery... Why should I not CC? I don't have any felonies, no criminal record, never robbed/stolen from anyone, have a good sense of judgment... My psychiatrist doesn't see a problem with me CC... I don't see a problem, my wife doesn't see a problem... People I know personally, not via internet, don't see any problems... So please don't prematurely pass judgment on whether or not I should CC... Not attacking, I am just stating a case here... So please, don't take it as an attack...



makers mark goes a looonnngggg ways at an lcr.......



I've seen it go pretty quick.



with you and i there it does...i was more referencing ways to smooth over past transgressions and meet the players....


DING!

(This'll be my third "Ding" of the night. You guys are some smart fuckers today)
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:32:28 PM EST
i'm on a roll...my next show is at 8pm....
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:39:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Neo1130:
Had an appointment today at the VA hospital and everything was going good... Until I get onto I-5... Minding my own business, jerk wad comes up right behind me and INTO my lane... Not just a little bit, but at least 1/2 of his car... I had to swerve out into another lane to keep from getting hit... Okay, typical WA driver... I'll let it slide... 1/4 of a mile later, same thing different lane... He drops down to 45 MPH and I keep going... Notice him doing the same fucking thing! Okay, time for me to pull to the right lane, wait for dipshit to pass and call it in... I call in it, give all necessary info and they say "We'll have someone on the way..." Okay, hangup... He does the same thing yet AGAIN! I mean 1/2-3/4 of his vehicle in another lane... I counted those up to about 10 times then quit counting... He gets over and decides to get off the free way... Coming within two feet of a trucker with a flat tire, almost hitting the driver, not the truck! At this time, I flash my high beams at the guy and signal him to pull over with no success...

Gets off at Mounts road and starts to head towards Olympic Arms... The first big turn there, he goes ALL the way into oncoming traffic nearly getting in a head on with three cars... Gets back into his lane and almost rear ends someone and then proceeds to pass with oncoming traffic running a couple of people off the road... I tried to get in front of him and try to stop him and unfortunately, he swerves... I call the 5-0 again and give them an update on location... Okay... So about 5 miles later and 10 minutes pass, no sign of any sort of LEO anywhere... We now turn down reservation road and yet another call to 911 to give another update... In the mean time, he almost got into another 3-4 head on collisions... At 50 mph, would NOT have been pretty...

Now the speed is picking up to 70 mph and a sharp corner with a stop sign and about 10 cars backed up... Drunk ass STOMPS his brakes, flys into oncoming and into the ditch, into a tree... Everyone gets out and sees if the guy is okay, then proceed to help him get out of the ditch... Nearly killing a few people, I was NOT about to let this fucker fly away... There was a big Samoan dude next to his drivers window and I instructed him to not let this guy go anywhere... I call 911 again and let them know the individual had crashed with no other vehicles involved... Guy was still trying to back out of the ditch in 2wd, so he wasn't going anywhere... I get to his window and tell him to turn off the vehicle and get out... He gets out, pissed like he wanted to kill me and starts to walk towards me, I put my hand on my waist where my pistol was and told him to stay where he was and not make another move towards me...

About 2 minutes after the last call I made the Thurston Co Sheriff shows up and can't do anything because it is State jurisdiction... He takes statements and I give my CPL to him... Then another town cop shows up... 5-6 more minutes go by and THEN the hot State Patrol Officer shows along with the Fire Dept. Take his vitals and he is fine medical wise... Then the officers surround the dude and question him... I think he tried to tell them I was going to pull my pistol on him... All I saw was him making a motion towards his waist and point to me... Cops didn't seem to care! LOL! One turned around and gave a thumbs up to me!

Damn, my adrenaline is still pumping! I just don't know what I would have done if this individual killed or greatly injured someone... But the amount of time it took the police to arrive, kinda had me a bit concerned... Funny thing is, this guy was in a company vehicle for some concrete company... I bet tomorrow he doesn't have a job, if it hasn't gotten to his boss already... I just wish I could have done something before he crashed and possibly into others... But, I mean almost 20 minutes to respond to a DUI? It wasn't no little swerve between lanes either which I let the operators know...

Edited for paragraphs!
This would have made a much better story in person....

Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:42:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 4:44:26 PM EST by Neo1130]
Originally Posted By bobbitybobbity:

This would have made a much better story in person....



LOL! Trust me, coming from my mouth, no... I am one that fucks up short stories, let alone my name... My mind races and I will cut parts out or switch timeframes...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 5:06:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
.. My psychiatrist doesn't see a problem with me CC... .

I didn't know Hannibal Lector was accepting new patients.





Link Posted: 6/8/2009 5:17:02 PM EST

IBM45
I own the bottom of Page One!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 5:22:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By JS98010:

IBM45
I own the bottom of Page One!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


And you tricked me into owning page 2!
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 6:46:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Athompson:
bring everything...it's the only way to be sure...


Hell yeah, even bobbity drinks vanilla vodka.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 8:41:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
I don't want to get into this argument again, but I have been told by MULTIPLE people, police officers included, that since I am disabled, cannot run from anything of the sort, cannot fight in return, I am able to pull a weapon... So, if I can't run, and cannot fight to defend myself, what other option would there be?


Are police officers and other MULTIPLE people the District Attorney? That is the person you have to worry about. Also, as to how many option you have, how many are you limiting yourself to?

And I was simply preparing myself which I don't see as a bad thing... How did I know he wasn't going to pull the knife from his belt or a gun that was hidden? If he did, I would be prepared for it... I have had a gun pulled on me before for trying to stop someone from driving drunk... So, be prepared or no?


I would be careful saying things like this. You know that following a drunk driver could result in a confrontation, so you continue to follow drunk drivers and possibly get into another violent confrontation, but now you make sure you have a gun in case something happens? Whoa, dude. Think about it. I hate drunks drivers, too, but what are you looking to do? Think like someone else's attorney: "You are disabled, cannot move quickly, cannot run, and my client showed no weapons, so you drew and brandished your gun, prepared to use deadly force against an unarmed man that showed you no weapon? Why did you even get out of your car in the first place? When you saw my clients vehicle, after being run off the road, was stuck, when others were already attending to the crash scene, why did you even approach my client?" On and on, and on.

Also, since no one knows the real me, please wait until you meet me at LCR to make assumptions that I should not be CCing... I am sure plenty of you have had down times in your life, I had mine and sought help and am on a road to recovery... Why should I not CC? I don't have any felonies, no criminal record, never robbed/stolen from anyone, have a good sense of judgment... My psychiatrist doesn't see a problem with me CC... I don't see a problem, my wife doesn't see a problem... People I know personally, not via internet, don't see any problems... So please don't prematurely pass judgment on whether or not I should CC... Not attacking, I am just stating a case here... So please, don't take it as an attack...


I don't, and you shouldn't see what I am saying as an attack. I am speaking the truth as I know it, my case for you to think about. I hope you think about it long and hard. Sure, you pass all the qualifications the state has laid out, and have massive personal friend, acquaintance, psychiatric, and family support, but maybe what you and they don't know is the laws of use of deadly force. Is your psychiatrist an attorney specializing in the use of deadly force? Ever read Mas Ayoob? The case law on this kind of thing is massive. You can step out of the bounds of lawful to criminal with just a puff of air, a slight misstep, or just by saying one little thing that someone overhears. A tiny mistake can fuck you up, and good.

How much professional training have you received on the lawful use of deadly force?

Have you considered at least an inexpensive pre-paid legal program? Or do you carry the business card of an attorney specializing in firearms law and the use of deadly force?

How far are you willing to go with someone once you get out of your car and can't escape under your own power?

Knowing you are disabled, how deep are you willing to get into not just the nightmare of possible violent confrontation, but what could you do to avoid it in the future?

The best gun fight you could ever win is one you could easily avoid by hauling ass outta there, and if staying in your car, in this case, was the best way to haul ass outta there, than why did you get outta your car when there were already people at the crashed vehicle?

See what I'm doing? I really don't want you to answer these questions here, I don't give a shit what your answers are, I want you to think about what is best for you. Carrying a gun is not a convenience so you can use it because you have it, it's so you can only use it if you have to.

So if you want to continue to do what you can that might involve a very disabled person getting into possibly violent armed confrontations while you are carrying a gun, by all means, go for it, but have your eyes open to more than just the moment. If I were you, being disabled and unable to run or fight, I'd have more options available than just lethal force. Pepper spray is legal, cheap, and sometimes damn amusing to use.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 9:20:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 9:37:38 PM EST by Neo1130]
Again, never did I say I pulled the gun out of the holster, just simply rested my hand on my weapon... I don't see any harm in that... Again, the guy had a knife on his belt, he was pissed and drunk... Drunkards are known to be unstable when it comes to emotions...

I got out of my vehicle to make sure everyone was okay, and to keep the guy from going any further... Say the guy did get himself out of the ditch, continued to drive, hit someone head on finally and killed them... Would you want that on your mind knowing you could have stopped the guy, but instead let him continue and kill someone? Last I knew, if you drive drunk, kill someone, it's called homicide... Murder is a felony, so is it not legal to pull your weapon to prevent a felony from happening?

RCW 9A.16.040
(1) Homicide or the use of deadly force is justifiable in the following cases:
(i) To arrest or apprehend a person who the officer reasonably believes has committed, has attempted to commit, is committing, or is attempting to commit a felony;

(2) In considering whether to use deadly force under subsection (1)(c) of this section, to arrest or apprehend any person for the commission of any crime, the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others. Among the circumstances which may be considered by peace officers as a "threat of serious physical harm" are the following:

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.
(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished;



I fought for my country to help everyone out and keep them safe and I am not about to stop just because I am no longer in the .mil... If I see a crime happening, I am going to stop it... I feel that stopping someone from continuing to drive drunk as this guy was, is plenty enough reason to detain him... Again, he could have killed multiple people... Please correct me if I am wrong in any way... But the law seems pretty clear to me, if he is in the act of potentially harming someone, I have every right to use force... Again, I know the use of force scale that I have been taught while in the military under Security Forces... I realize that cops have their ways of doing things, but civilians also have their rights/protections on this sort of subject... If I was in the wrong, why did the officers thank me and tell me I did a good job? You would think they would give me a warning or something, give me advice... Again, not trying to start an argument, but this is what I am getting from the law books...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 9:42:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
Again, never did I say I pulled the gun out of the holster, just simply rested my hand on my weapon... I don't see any harm in that... Again, the guy had a knife on his belt, he was pissed and drunk... Drunkards are known to be unstable when it comes to emotions...

I got out of my vehicle to make sure everyone was okay, and to keep the guy from going any further... Say the guy did get himself out of the ditch, continued to drive, hit someone head on finally and killed them... Would you want that on your mind knowing you could have stopped the guy, but instead let him continue and kill someone?

I fought for my country to help everyone out and keep them safe and I am not about to stop just because I am no longer in the .mil... If I see a crime happening, I am going to stop it... I feel that stopping someone from continuing to drive drunk as this guy was, is plenty enough reason to detain him... Again, he could have killed multiple people...

A good lawyer will paint this as brandishing, escalating the situation.

If you can't explain it convincingly to people who believe in a need for lethal force, how do you expect to explain it to a jury?

Want? No. Could live with, sure. But I have less problem with drunk driving than alot of the people here. And I don't feel responsible for other peoples actions.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 9:57:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:16:33 PM EST
I ask again, but I change my question: How much professional training have you had in the use of deadly force as an armed private citizen? Being an armed citizen is night and day compared to .mil, police, etc. I've been reading Mas Ayoob for years, and have taken courses at FAS specifically for private citizens that are armed.

Until you answer this question, I don't give a shit about what you want to do, not letting people get away with it, how you feel morality requires you to act, your past experience, etc. You are not a cop, not in the .mil, you have no legal requirement to act to try to apprehend a criminal, and do not have the legal coverage that those types have in dealing with criminals. Morality, to me, says take care of #1, that's me and mine.

If I was a disabled man that couldn't fight or run away, I'd think twice about what I was willing to accept, and I'd talk to my family about it. If you were prosecuted, could you afford your defense, even if you were found to be on the right side of the law? Remember, the law says you get reimbursed if prosecuted and found to be acting within the law. Reimbursed means you shelled out the money in the first place. In the meantime, who is taking care of your bills? Your family? What if you can't afford to be bailed out of jail in the meantime? What about a civil lawsuit? Can you afford the defense of a civil lawsuit?

You got a lot more to consider than just how you feel things should go, what society and morality will allow you to do within the law.

Those cops that said you did a good job are the same ones that will forward a report to the DA's office if they ever think you stepped outta line for a fraction of a second. Don't for an instant think they are on your side. They are doing their job, and if their job at some point is to make you look like you might have screwed up to the DA, they will do it.

Every criminal I have been party to help prosecute as a private citizen has never required me to do anything more than to be a good witness, never a confrontation of any kind involved. I know what I am capable of, and I am capable of a hell of a lot more than you, physically, based on what you've said. I am looking out for #1, me and mine, and how things will be taken away from me if I make a mistake. This is what I owe to those that love me and need me. I can do nothing for them if I go to jail, and/or have my rights taken away.

Some people may say I am too worried about the negative. So be it. I'm sticking with a proven plan of action. It works for me. YMMV. I know what I have to lose. Do you?

Think. THINK.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:17:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
sigh


Thanks for your insightful contribution.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:23:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 10:24:51 PM EST by migradog]
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:26:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By migradog:
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
I don't want to get into this argument again, but I have been told by MULTIPLE people, police officers included, that since I am disabled, cannot run from anything of the sort, cannot fight in return, I am able to pull a weapon... So, if I can't run, and cannot fight to defend myself, what other option would there be?



So knowing you cannot fight or run, you willfully approach a subject you believe to be under the influence and armed.
In the course of this approach, you rest your hand on a concealed weapon to show this person you are armed as well.

In this case you did have the option to leave and had already called 911 and knew police were enroute.

Unless the other driver was in the process of commiting a crime that could cause grave injury or death to yourself or bystanders,
where is the possible use of deadly force justified?

Had the incident escalated to you using your gun in self-defense,
any semi-skilled laywer would slap you with a wrongful death/injury lawsuit and prevail.

There's a difference between arming yourself for protection,
and willfully involving yourself in an incident where no lives are in immediate danger,
then brandishing a weapon at a drunk.



Keep in mind, Neo, that MigraDog is in the criminal catching business. I'd listen to him and THINK.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:28:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:30:48 PM EST
The Neo1130 Action figure.
Complete with plastic concealed carry handgun and a full years supply of Prozac and lithium.
Extra set of cuff's for "Citizens arrest" scenarios included.

Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:35:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
There was for more insight to that post than you think. Spending the time to type out the flaws in the OPs thought process that haven't already been mentioned just isn't worth it tonight.

So I'll recommend some training for him instead.

LFI-1

Massad Ayoob's LFI One ... $800
Thurs. - Sun., June 11-14, 2009–FAS, Onalaska, WA, 9 a.m.-6 p.m.


Go, man, GO!!
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:41:11 PM EST
So if I understand the masses here, unles you've taken a class, are currently leo or .mil, you're not qualified to defend yourself with lethal force? Give me a break.
Lot of self righteousness going on here.
Guess he should have just let the guy drive off into traffic and hurt or kill someone. Yeah he could have just ignored it, but then that's one of the major problems with our contry too, some people are just too damn self-centered. Unless the officers were complete tards, of course they're going to thank the guy, he did the right thing. He didn't "brandish" as you said, anyone reading the OP can see he just put his hand to his waist, and let the guy charging him make up his own mind.
And where does lethal force even come into play here? the guy didn't even draw down, much less fire a shot.

Shaddup
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:42:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By DoberDude:
The Neo1130 Action figure.
Complete with plastic concealed carry handgun and a full years supply of Prozac and lithium.
Extra set of cuff's for "Citizens arrest" scenarios included.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/bulletbob223/neoaction.jpg





I think popcorn just shot out of my nose!
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:45:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Clown_Gun:

Originally Posted By DoberDude:
The Neo1130 Action figure.
Complete with plastic concealed carry handgun and a full years supply of Prozac and lithium.
Extra set of cuff's for "Citizens arrest" scenarios included.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/bulletbob223/neoaction.jpg





I think popcorn just shot out of my nose!

Now we are even. You did the same thing to me with your "Steal the guys identity, get a credit card and buy your buddy a new chainsaw" post


Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:54:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By migradog:

So knowing you cannot fight or run, you willfully approach a subject you believe to be under the influence and armed.
In the course of this approach, you rest your hand on a concealed weapon to show this person you are armed as well.
I did it to prevent him from going any further and potentially causing harm to others... I really don't care what happens to me, but I will do what I can to help out others...

In this case you did have the option to leave and had already called 911 and knew police were enroute.
It was 20 minutes from the time I called the cops until they showed up at the scene, would have been longer if he kept going?

Unless the other driver was in the process of commiting a crime that could cause grave injury or death to yourself or bystanders,
where is the possible use of deadly force justified?
If he continued to drive drunk, there would have been an accident which could cause massive injury or death. We were starting to get into heavier traffic at the time and was getting closer to rush hour. If he didn't hit a tree, he would have hit another vehicle or possibly a pedestrian like he almost did on the off ramp...

Had the incident escalated to you using your gun in self-defense,
any semi-skilled laywer would slap you with a wrongful death/injury lawsuit and prevail.
If I get time for trying to protect the public from some drunk ass, then be it...

There's a difference between arming yourself for protection,
and willfully involving yourself in an incident where no lives are in immediate danger,
then brandishing a weapon at a drunk.
I am still failing to see how a continuation of the individuals behavior wouldn't pose a risk to others?



I see what you are saying and where you are coming from, but I guess you just have to have been there to understand the whole situation... I mean, this guy wasn't no .08 BAC drunk... I am talking at least a .20 or even higher than that... I guess our morals about life differ and understand that... Again, I will do what it takes to help keep people safe...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:55:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By DoberDude:
The Neo1130 Action figure.
Complete with plastic concealed carry handgun and a full years supply of Prozac and lithium.
Extra set of cuff's for "Citizens arrest" scenarios included.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/bulletbob223/neoaction.jpg


LOL! I knew I should have used a different name...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 10:56:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 11:01:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By DoberDude:
Originally Posted By Clown_Gun:

Originally Posted By DoberDude:
The Neo1130 Action figure.
Complete with plastic concealed carry handgun and a full years supply of Prozac and lithium.
Extra set of cuff's for "Citizens arrest" scenarios included.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/bulletbob223/neoaction.jpg





I think popcorn just shot out of my nose!

Now we are even. You did the same thing to me with your "Steal the guys identity, get a credit card and buy your buddy a new chainsaw" post




Link Posted: 6/8/2009 11:03:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By AudiDat:
Guess he should have just let the guy drive off into traffic and hurt or kill someone.


As simply as I can put it, that is my advice.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 11:05:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 11:10:49 PM EST by Neo1130]
Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
He didn't "brandish" as you said, anyone reading the OP can see he just put his hand to his waist, and let the guy charging him make up his own mind.

Maybe he didn't maybe he did. There's a soldier who's in trouble because
he pulled up his shirt to display a holstered handgun




I think there is a difference between a sober guy trying to stop a drunk guy from driving and potentially harming someone, and some dipshit drunk soldier from just flashing his shit at middle schoolers to make himself look cool...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 11:10:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By AudiDat:
Guess he should have just let the guy drive off into traffic and hurt or kill someone.


As simply as I can put it, that is my advice.


Let me ask Busy... Have you ever had any of your really close friends die from a DUI, whether it is their fault or not? I have had two close friends die from their stupidity and two die from others stupidity of driving under the influence... It isn't a pretty sight... When it happens to you, I am sure you'll think twice about trying to stop someone any way you can, from driving drunk... Who knows, it could have been your mom, my mom or other family member the guy hits... Maybe it could have been you... I don't take this shit lightly because it ruined my shop and ruined their families lives, whom I was very close with also... I HATE this shit with a passion... I think there should be more strict laws for DUI's... Seems it isn't strict enough cause the shit still happens thousands of times each year...
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 11:13:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 11:14:16 PM EST by DoberDude]
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
Originally Posted By BusySquirrel:
Originally Posted By AudiDat:
Guess he should have just let the guy drive off into traffic and hurt or kill someone.


As simply as I can put it, that is my advice.


Let me ask Busy... Have you ever had any of your really close friends die from a DUI, whether it is their fault or not? I have had two close friends die from their stupidity and two die from others stupidity of driving under the influence... It isn't a pretty sight... When it happens to you, I am sure you'll think twice about trying to stop someone any way you can, from driving drunk... Who knows, it could have been your mom, my mom or other family member the guy hits... Maybe it could have been you... I don't take this shit lightly because it ruined my shop and ruined their families lives, whom I was very close with also... I HATE this shit with a passion... I think there should be more strict laws for DUI's... Seems it isn't strict enough cause the shit still happens thousands of times each year...

Ummm...Neo, you drink and drive. I saw your post's in the DIY beer brewing forum.

Link Posted: 6/8/2009 11:14:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By Neo1130:
Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
He didn't "brandish" as you said, anyone reading the OP can see he just put his hand to his waist, and let the guy charging him make up his own mind.

Maybe he didn't maybe he did. There's a soldier who's in trouble because
he pulled up his shirt to display a holstered handgun



I think there is a difference between a sober guy trying to stop a drunk guy from driving and potentially harming someone, cripple who believes he has the obligation, no, the right, to apprenhend someone he assumes is drunk, but has no concrete evidence (i.e. failed BAC, PBT, sobriety tests), so he places himself in a "kill or be killed" situation and some dipshit drunk soldier from just flashing his shit to make him look cool legal aged drinker legally approved firearm carrier who was possibly "defending" his friend from a group of teenage ruffians prowling the streets at night...


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