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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/8/2005 4:24:55 PM EDT
You know how people who work in slaughterhouses tend to not each much meat?

And how folks who work in pizzerias tend not to eat pizza?

I'm wondering, seeing as your family owns and you work on a chicken farm, how much chicken do you eat? What about eggs?

Just idle curiosity.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:51:37 PM EDT
Chicken was one of, and still is, my favorite meats to eat. I probably like fish and seafood a bit more, but chicken is up there above beef and WAY above pork. I also love eggs.

There have actually been times when we hit hard times, finacially, and we couldn't afford groceries. We ate eggs anyway you could imagine for about 6 to 8 weeks straight. Good times.

Our eggs are top quality, but the chickens are not built for eating. So we eat our own eggs, straight from the chicken houses, on a fairly regular basis, maybe once a week on average (sometimes not for two weeks sometimes every day of the week), but the chickens we never eat.

Anything else you would like to know about the ranches?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:00:41 PM EDT
Hahhaaaa, damn that was a fast (and funny) response.

I'm actually surprised that you favor chicken and eggs as much as you do. As my question may have suggested, I would have thought otherwise.

So how does your operation work? Do you sell the eggs to a wholesaler who packages it under their own name? And who's the final consumer of your eggs? Do they end up in our grocery stores? Under any namebrand I might recognize?

My family and I consume alot of eggs, maybe I can help you purchase that 1911 or M1 Garand that you want. LOL

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:36:36 PM EDT
Group buy!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:28:43 PM EDT
Well currently, I believe, we are the fourth largest producer of eggs in California. You won't know the names of them, because if anything, you would know the retailers and not us.

We used to do everything up to the point where the eggs hit the grocery store, but for the last 2 years we have gone into a 'partnership' with one of the larger processors, Hidden Villa, to take care of our processing end. We did this due to family problems mostly. The ranches used to be owned by by my Grandpa, my Uncle, and my Dad. My Grandpa died quite a while ago and my Grandma took over his end. Then my Uncle died maybe 4 years ago, and then my Grandma about 3 years ago. It left a LOT of work on my Dad's sholders. Everyone who wasn't in high school quit their jobs, dropped out of school, etc to help out with the ranch. But as I said, it's starting to go under, so we are all trying to get back to where we were before this all happened. I am the 4th generation of ranchers, and I probably will never get a chance to run it myself

It's ok, I think it is for the best. My dad works 7 days a week, with 14 hours days on the NORM. I have seen him go 3 days straight with like 2-3 hours sleep a day, working the other hours. It's hard work, but there is a pride that comes with it.


On to happier points

The biggest name that our family dealed with, and still do, is Challenge Dairy. We have some other smaller grocery stores, but they are mostly (not to be racist) the hispanic "Tiendas" and they are small whole in the wall places. I think we worked with Ranch Market for a while, but I think we dropped them for lack of payments or arging prices or something stupid like that. (Ranch Market has had several disasters at it, and has thus gotten fairly big. It was the store that had the guy drive through it running voer people and calimed he though he was breaking. It also had the guy who walked in with an 'assault rifle' and kill 3 or 4 people.)

The people we are temp partners with right now have some fairly big dealers, from Albertsons and Luckys I believe. You won't ever see our names though, because when we package the eggs we do it under the sellers cartons. So if you go to Stater Bros and look around, sometimes you can see our stuff there, but you wouldn't know it, because pretty much anyone that processes for them will process in their boxes. Think if 100 sweat shops made Nikes, but put them in the same box, how would you know which sweat shop a particular pair of Nikes came from? Same thing.

I think that was everything. Anything else?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:33:05 PM EDT
Damn, sounds like alot of history (or drama depending on how you look at it) behind your family's ranch. Too bad you'll never get to run it.

It does sound like a helluva lot of work. I'm always fascinated by family owned and operated ranches/farms. I grew up wanting to work/live on a ranch, so I guess I'm envious.

Having eaten tens of thousands of eggs in my short life, theres a good chance I could have consumed one your family's eggs!

Why is it that the ranches are failing? Are you experiencing pressure from your local community to close/move? Trouble finding workers (hard to believe with all the mexican labor available)? Competition? High operating costs? Government regulation?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:34:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Group buy!



LMAO, I'm in for a couple cases.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:46:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TKoProductions:
Why is it that the ranches are failing? Are you experiencing pressure from your local community to close/move? Trouble finding workers (hard to believe with all the mexican labor available)? Competition? High operating costs? Government regulation?




All of the above and then some. Yucaipa used to be a farming community. Read: not a town. Slowly people move in becuase they want away from the city and land is cheap. They then find out it smells, the roads are not always paved, etc. They want that changed to fit their city life style. They leave the city to escape it, and then bring it to themselves all over again.

Most of the problems is our land drops the value of the land around it in regards to RESIDENTIAL land. I have heard that one of the main people on our city council board actually has investiments in all the land around here, which is why we are getting the construction boom. He makes it VERY difficult for the people who are already here, and makes it very esay for the builders. There used to be four rather LARGE ranches (ours is about 750,000 chickens alone) on the block we are on. We are the only one left. They are currently building house 100 FEET from our chicken buildings. That means you step into your yard and you see chickens, their manure, their smell, and everything else. The sad thing is, once they move in, if they complain to the city, Vector control (or whoever else, we have even had Wildlife Fish and Gaming come out) are REQUIRED to come out and investigate. So you can say "There are a lot of flies." and there may only be two at your house, but they have to come out and investigate the ENTIRE ranch for EVERYTHING. So we can get a complaint about too many flies, and we get written up for a broken door on our egg cooler or something like that.

As of late, the city has been trying to get ranches out to get "positive revinue" in. We get weed abaitment warnings about twice a month now. Vector control about 3 times a month. AQMD (air quality) comes out about once a month. Not to mention all sorts of other people. I would say on average, every day we get at least one person at one of our ranches in this area alone. Each visit brings problems that we get an insanely short time to fix. Imagine being asked to remove all the weeds on a 30 acre parcel overnight. That is the type of crap we get, and 90% of it from people in the city who live around us or will make money by us going out. The only reason we are still here is because a couple years ago we were approved to upgrade our facilities to automated buildings and were given like 10 years to do it, so the city has to give us that time to finish it. I have heard (parents don't like talking about the bad stuff around the family, but you catch stuff from time to time) that the city is actually trying to void the contract we have, something along the lines of eminent domain, but not quite. Anyways, they are gunning for our ranch. As long as we jump through the hopes, we are fine, but the hopes are getting smaller and there are more and more of them. We are the last major ranch in Yucaipa, when there used to be (if I remember right) roughly 60.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:51:11 PM EDT
Oh yes, and don't forget that with all the "even if your an illegal immigrant, you still have rights to win a case" commercials, every single worker now all of a sudden thinks that if they get sore muscles they don't have to work for the rest of their life. We had a lady sure us for an infected hangnail. Another lady was working for two days and grabbed a moving gear in a machine and tried to sue us. She said that there was no sign and no one said she coudln't, so she thought it was alright. We eneded up settling out of court, because the cost of our lawyers would be twice what we finally bargained. Still, that is money we don't have.

I am saddened by it all, but I know it will be bitter sweet to see all the people that used us loose their jobs, or their insanely good bussiness deals that we gave them all because they were greedy.

That, and I hope my Dad will take time off and relax. He hasn't had a real vacation in like 12 years.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:04:02 PM EDT
Thats the horrible stuff about farm life nobody want to hear. I can see how they would want to force you out.

I remember reading an article a year ago or so about how migrant female workers in San Bernardino purposely claim workers compensation so that they can stay home with their children while still collecting a two household income. Supposedly, the husband always works, but the wife will work for 2 weeks, purposely get hurt or fake an injury, and collect workers comp. Thus enabling her to stay at home, be a housewife, all while experiencing the benefits of two incomes. It looks like you've been a victim of that scam.

So what does your family intend to do? Are they going to sell off the ranch? Or will they close down the ranch, and sell off the land? In either case, being a newly constructed residential area, the land must be work quite a bit, no?

So are you going back to school?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:17:42 PM EDT
I am going to try and simplfy this as much as I can. Not because anyone here is stupid, but because it is SO complicated, I have to for it to make sense.

The land value itself is worth a LOT. However, as I said we were upgrading and that takes money we didn't have, so we are VERY much in debt. We got into the debt shortly before my Grandma and Uncle died, and it would ahve worked, but now that we are the sole owners of the bussiness, we have three times the debt we originally said we could take. So if we don't pay our bills on time, we lose everything......and I mean EVERYTHING. We become homeless. So the only thing we can do is bend over backwards and meet the ridiculous requirments that are getting more and more harsh. Most people in Yucaipa WANT the chicken ranches, but what the people want and what ends up happening is not all one in the same (as we Californians know all too well).

So we are working as hard as we can to try and get ahead enough to at least keep the houses we own so that we have a place to live. Working is not a problem, as long as we have a place to live, we will be fine. I am actually going back to school in a short bit (already registered and enrolled ) to become a machinist. I would like to become a carpenter, but I want to start out with machining. Hopefully by the end I will know how to work with everything, from metal and wood to plastic and ceramics. I would love to open a gunsmithing shop or even work with a major manufacturing company, but I don't know if that is a reasonable dream to aim for. Guns have been, and always will be, a MAJOR passion in my life and I hope whatever I do, I end up working with them. My family hates that (they even told me they would disown me if I got a second rifle, I know own four ) but for the first time in my life, I am happy.

I have a wonderful fiancee, I finally am pursuing my dream career, and I have the time to finally have friends again (hopefully shooting friends, like I was talking about in my other topic ). I don't know, I am saddened and agry about the bussiness going under, but I have accepted it, and I am happy with where my life is going, and that is all I ever wanted, so it's ok with me.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:24:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 8:27:27 PM EDT by NeoWeird]
Oh yes, there is now a family divide because my Aunts (my only Uncle died) are fighting over inheritance that they sold/signed away years ago. They claim that our Grandma cheated them out of part of their inheritance because they didn't want to take part of the debt of the company. They all fled like cockaroaches in the light when they heard they could lose their homes if the debt wasn't paid. So they gave up the right to their inheritance because when the debt was factored in, it was worth nothing but trouble. So now we are being sued by my Aunts to get a percentage of the company, but they refuse to take any of the debt. So if that goes through, we are screwed.

We originally had 11 ranches. We are down to I think 6, because we have been selling them off to pay bills. Egg prices are in the toilet, and have been for about 7 years now. We are actually losing money when we sell eggs. When you go to the store and buy a dozen eggs for like $2, we sell those same eggs for about $0.45 and it takes ~$0.55 to make that dozen. The inflation of prices is INSANE and we get screwed in the end for a number of reasons. Basically, our ship is on fire and sinking, and we bucketing water out as fast as we can, but it is only a mater of time because it only ash left to save.

ETA: When I said we sell it for that price, I mean we sell it packaged and deliever is to the store for that price. So the store opens a box and puts the eggs on the counter and price raises five fold instantly.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:21:30 PM EDT
Wow, Neo...huge operation :)

Compared to your poultry, my little flock of Marans, Cochins and Silkies like a speck of sand in the vast universe.

Hope the Worker's Comp and other issues get straightened out in your favor.

Gwen
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:37:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:39:18 PM EDT by TKoProductions]
Damn, that is absolutely horrible. What a mess, as if running the business isn't hard enough, you've got family acting like cannibals, trying to devour what you've worked so hard to keep alive.

Like you said though, all you can do is follow your passion. Don't let anyone discourage you, and live your life. If you want to be a gunsmith, pursue it. Start out learning to become a machinist, and see where it takes you. Your never know what doors it'll open down the road.

Damn, grocery stores are seriously screwing ya'll over. I can't believe their markup. Here you guys do all the work, and they reap all the profits (or returns).

I really hate debt, it makes me feel like someone else owns me. That I'm working for them instead of myself. It's modern day slavery.

Still regardless of all your problems, its like you said, there has to be a certain level of pride. You're supplying Los Angeles and probably much of Southern California with a viable product, and even if it isn't worth anything, you're sitting on top of an incredible empire. The product of your families hard work and incredible intellect is amazing!

Too bad your local community and city council doesn't recognize all of your effort.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:27:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TKoProductions:
Damn, that is absolutely horrible. What a mess, as if running the business isn't hard enough, you've got family acting like cannibals, trying to devour what you've worked so hard to keep alive.

Like you said though, all you can do is follow your passion. Don't let anyone discourage you, and live your life. If you want to be a gunsmith, pursue it. Start out learning to become a machinist, and see where it takes you. Your never know what doors it'll open down the road.

Damn, grocery stores are seriously screwing ya'll over. I can't believe their markup. Here you guys do all the work, and they reap all the profits (or returns).

I really hate debt, it makes me feel like someone else owns me. That I'm working for them instead of myself. It's modern day slavery.

Still regardless of all your problems, its like you said, there has to be a certain level of pride. You're supplying Los Angeles and probably much of Southern California with a viable product, and even if it isn't worth anything, you're sitting on top of an incredible empire. The product of your families hard work and incredible intellect is amazing!

Too bad your local community and city council doesn't recognize all of your effort.



Thank you. I have always been very proud of my family, and our intellect. We tend to become jacks of all trades, which is great. My dad went to school to be a carpenter, knows how to weld VERY well, is an electrician, refridgerator technician, mechanic, plumber, etc. My brother has a degree in computer technology, is certified as an electrician, and is now going into robotics. Other brother is a mechanic and tractor operator. Other brother is a welder, electrician, and now delievers the mail (he got married and couldn't support his wife on the ranch salary. He is the only one who doesn't work on the ranch now). I am comfortable with computers (I think I got tested at like 60 words per minute and I reformat my computer like 5 times a year), I can weld (though not very well), ride tractors, operate a lot of dock equipment like fork lifts and motorized pallet jacks, I've worked on cars, and plumbing, and even done some electrician work.

We don't have the money to hire professionals, so we do it ourselves, and if we don't know how, we get a crash course.

I take pride in knowing that I have never, and probably will never, hired someone to do something for me. Even when we were advised to get professional help, we still did it on our own and everything still works. It's why we have equipment on our ranch from 1940 that is still running good every day to this day.

And to Gwen in La, the 750,000 is just one ranch. We have about 2,000,000 birds in our operation, though that will change soon and probably drop to about 1,500,000 in the next year or so (downsizing and losing ranches).
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:04:20 AM EDT
Wow, neoweird, very interesting!

If you're ever interested in entitling the land yourself (ie converting ranch land to residential/commercial real estate) there's a few people I know who may be of some assistance. These people basically take land that is barren or uninhabitable, clean it up, push it through the local and state governments and then sell it the developers.

Bill O'Neil and old Joe Irvine made their billions in socal doing this.

Please, don't take the wrong way, the ranch lifestyle is hard work and rewarding, but it really sounds like the "push for progress" is gonna swallow that exsistence....

JWC

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:26:33 PM EDT
We are considering that as an option once we get to being above debt in networth. We were actually in contruction and went into the ranching bussiness, so it's not something new to my Dad. The nice thing is that the land already has plumbing and electricity to it, the land has already been (for the most part) compacted down for buildings, and the chicken houses are 95% metal so people actually pay us to take them down as long as they get the material to recycle.

The only problem is where do you get the money to push it the last bit into residential property when the debt to value ration is roughly 6:8
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:41:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:56:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
0.75 MILLION chickens?

Dang, I'm coming to YOUR place when the SHTF!



Heh, and there is a nother ranch a 10 minute WALK away that has another 30-50k. If anything, I would go to our ranch in Highland (if it is still around), as it has enough chicken to live forever off of, eggs, feed to make bread, a small fruit orchard, and an above ground water supply. Only problem is it is wide open, so no way to really defend/protect it.

Then again, it's had to get by 50 armed arfcomers and their families...
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:06:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 8:07:57 PM EDT by TKoProductions]

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:

Originally Posted By Paul:
0.75 MILLION chickens?

Dang, I'm coming to YOUR place when the SHTF!



Heh, and there is a nother ranch a 10 minute WALK away that has another 30-50k. If anything, I would go to our ranch in Highland (if it is still around), as it has enough chicken to live forever off of, eggs, feed to make bread, a small fruit orchard, and an above ground water supply. Only problem is it is wide open, so no way to really defend/protect it.

Then again, it's had to get by 50 armed arfcomers and their families...



I can see the headlines already:

NeoWeird Compound: 50 Families From Extremist Website Converge On Local Chicken Ranch

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:14:55 AM EDT
Yeah, it will be along all the other lies in the news like

"Democrates find cure to cancer and aids, however jealous Republicans kill all and destroy evidence."

"Freedom found to be true Anti-Christ."

And of course

"Guns robbed my house, killed my husband, assaulted my children, raped me and now I am pregnant with their baby."
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:34:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
Oh yes, there is now a family divide because my Aunts (my only Uncle died) are fighting over inheritance that they sold/signed away years ago. They claim that our Grandma cheated them out of part of their inheritance because they didn't want to take part of the debt of the company. They all fled like cockaroaches in the light when they heard they could lose their homes if the debt wasn't paid. So they gave up the right to their inheritance because when the debt was factored in, it was worth nothing but trouble. So now we are being sued by my Aunts to get a percentage of the company, but they refuse to take any of the debt. So if that goes through, we are screwed.

We originally had 11 ranches. We are down to I think 6, because we have been selling them off to pay bills. Egg prices are in the toilet, and have been for about 7 years now. We are actually losing money when we sell eggs. When you go to the store and buy a dozen eggs for like $2, we sell those same eggs for about $0.45 and it takes ~$0.55 to make that dozen. The inflation of prices is INSANE and we get screwed in the end for a number of reasons. Basically, our ship is on fire and sinking, and we bucketing water out as fast as we can, but it is only a mater of time because it only ash left to save.

ETA: When I said we sell it for that price, I mean we sell it packaged and deliever is to the store for that price. So the store opens a box and puts the eggs on the counter and price raises five fold instantly.



Hopefully, whoever wrote the estate plan (if any) included a "no contest" clause that cut out anyone who challenged the will (if there was one). Family feuds over money are the worst. Take it from me, I deal with this stuff every day as a divorce lawyer (going on 23 years in the business, 19 in family law). If they want equity, then they should get debt. Can't have one without the other!
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:37:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nfalawyer:
Hopefully, whoever wrote the estate plan (if any) included a "no contest" clause that cut out anyone who challenged the will (if there was one). Family feuds over money are the worst. Take it from me, I deal with this stuff every day as a divorce lawyer (going on 23 years in the business, 19 in family law). If they want equity, then they should get debt. Can't have one without the other!



As I understand it, they are arguing that they signed away their right to the Business, but not the property. So they want us to sell all the property and divide the money evenly, and we get to keep anything bussiness related, which leaves us with all the equipment and debt. That is at least how I understand it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:52:12 AM EDT
Forgot to add that I sympathize with the problem of having city folks moving to the country and then bitching and moaning that they don't like what the country has to offer (like the smell of chicken manure after a good rain). I grew up in the city and suburban areas, but have no sympathy for whining by city folk about life in the country. Sort of like people moving to the city and complaining about the sound of city buses, cars honking their horns, and fire engines zooming by at night.

If non-farmers and non-ranchers want to live in a rural area, then they need to learn to deal with it. No Starbucks, no organic holistic healing centers, no New York Times Book review at the coffee shop / gas station. Slow moving vehicles (read, tractors), pick up trucks (not monster trucks, real working trucks) with rifle racks containing well-worn Remington 760 pump action rifles, chicken ranches, cattle ranches, crops, irrigation, crop dusters, riding Western, high schools with big 4H programs, people that actually attend church every Sunday, etc. are what newcomers should expect.

My dad grew up working the fields in Reedly, which was (and still is) a farming community, before he went off to UC Berkeley, UNC Chapel Hill and a career in academia. The suburban area where I grew up in on Long Island was at least 30% farms (mostly seasonal produce) when I was a kid. A fair amount of land was also devoted to horses. I used to go with family friends to pick strawberries, shopped at the road-side produce stands for the Sunday meal after church, etc. There were acres of fields behind my elementary school covered with hay, wheat, and other grains. The only "crops" now are strip malls and housing developments, so I've seen the devastation wrought by urbanization of farming areas near developed areas. SUVs with chrome wheels now reside where formerly one would see an Oliver, Ford or John Deere tractor or well-worn IH truck (complete with Flintstone floorboards).

That's progress for you!
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:56:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:

Originally Posted By nfalawyer:
Hopefully, whoever wrote the estate plan (if any) included a "no contest" clause that cut out anyone who challenged the will (if there was one). Family feuds over money are the worst. Take it from me, I deal with this stuff every day as a divorce lawyer (going on 23 years in the business, 19 in family law). If they want equity, then they should get debt. Can't have one without the other!



As I understand it, they are arguing that they signed away their right to the Business, but not the property. So they want us to sell all the property and divide the money evenly, and we get to keep anything bussiness related, which leaves us with all the equipment and debt. That is at least how I understand it.



What is the legal relationship between the land and the business? Is there a long-term leasing arrangement? Trust? The key is to tie the two together so inextricably that a court won't be able to separate them for purposes of the lawsuit. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:02:01 AM EDT
Not sure exactly, but it has ALWAYS been a ranch, but I think it was setup seperate so that the house owned the land and the bussiness was just there. Not exactly sure legally how it all works, that is just how I understand it is going down.

It's not so much I am worried that my aunts will win, because I am sure they most likely will not, but we still have to pay for our lawyer, which we don't even money to do as it is. Either way we come out negative from when we started. We lose money to the lawyers and we may lose money to my aunts.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:47:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
Not sure exactly, but it has ALWAYS been a ranch, but I think it was setup seperate so that the house owned the land and the bussiness was just there. Not exactly sure legally how it all works, that is just how I understand it is going down.

It's not so much I am worried that my aunts will win, because I am sure they most likely will not, but we still have to pay for our lawyer, which we don't even money to do as it is. Either way we come out negative from when we started. We lose money to the lawyers and we may lose money to my aunts.



Sorry to hear this. I got tired of business litigation, which I did for a number of years at big firms. Make sure whoever you use as a lawyer is smarter, harder-working and better connected (to the judges) than the other side's lawyer, or as the slogan I saw on one lawyer's tee-shirt said: "My lawyer can beat up your lawyer." Good luck!
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 1:09:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 1:11:10 AM EDT by NeoWeird]
Update:

I shouldn't post too much information, but I will try to be vauge as to give you a general idea of what is happening.

We are being sued....again. This time for discrimination.

A worker from about a year ago got injured at home one day but kept coming in for work because he had to support his family. We tell him to go to the doctor and he is put on modified work. About 3 months later he files a workmans comp claim. After several months of him working on modified work AFTER this point, workmans comp does an investigation for fraud. They find that the particular injury was IMPOSSIBLE to get under ANY circumstance in the way the worker described getting it. They ask for his previous medical records to see if it is pre-existing and he refuses to give any information. The case is dropped and he has to pony up the money. A few weeks later he walks off the job and doesn't return for 3 weeks or so, at which point he had been replaced as we thought he had quit.

Now, about 6 months later, we get a law suit for discrimination. The worker claims that we fired him the second we found out about the workmans comp claim, which obviously isn't true since he was working long enough for them to do an extensive investigation and then some. He is also claiming that we refused him the right to see our doctor, which again isn't true since our doctor put him on modified work. It is also clearly a pre-existing condition as he refuses to give any previous medical records. So it's a frivilous, slanderous, fradulent case and workmans comp won't even touch it because it's not an injury case, but a discrimination case. So we are on our own with no help from anyone.

The shit part is, that we are already being told to setlle out of court, because court/lawyer fees alone will be more than what can be bargained for as a settlement. Of course they are illegal, and even if we won and he had to pay our court/lawyer fees, there would be no way to force him to pay or collect, so we would still be out the money.

Either way we get fucked by our legal system by someone who is illegally breaking it in several ways when we did everything, and then some, that we were legally and morally responsible to do. I personally keep saying we should counter-sue for it being, as I said above, a frivilous slanderous fraudulent law suit. Even if it doesn't fly in court, it has truth behind it enough to possibly scare the person into dropping the whole case for fear of legal repercutions.

I wonder what American plans to do when they run all agriculture out of the USA. I guess people won't mind paying $20 for an imported hamburger, as long as they never have to see the cow or smell it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:15:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
Update:

I shouldn't post too much information, but I will try to be vauge as to give you a general idea of what is happening.

We are being sued....again. This time for discrimination.

A worker from about a year ago got injured at home one day but kept coming in for work because he had to support his family. We tell him to go to the doctor and he is put on modified work. About 3 months later he files a workmans comp claim. After several months of him working on modified work AFTER this point, workmans comp does an investigation for fraud. They find that the particular injury was IMPOSSIBLE to get under ANY circumstance in the way the worker described getting it. They ask for his previous medical records to see if it is pre-existing and he refuses to give any information. The case is dropped and he has to pony up the money. A few weeks later he walks off the job and doesn't return for 3 weeks or so, at which point he had been replaced as we thought he had quit.

Now, about 6 months later, we get a law suit for discrimination. The worker claims that we fired him the second we found out about the workmans comp claim, which obviously isn't true since he was working long enough for them to do an extensive investigation and then some. He is also claiming that we refused him the right to see our doctor, which again isn't true since our doctor put him on modified work. It is also clearly a pre-existing condition as he refuses to give any previous medical records. So it's a frivilous, slanderous, fradulent case and workmans comp won't even touch it because it's not an injury case, but a discrimination case. So we are on our own with no help from anyone.

The shit part is, that we are already being told to setlle out of court, because court/lawyer fees alone will be more than what can be bargained for as a settlement. Of course they are illegal, and even if we won and he had to pay our court/lawyer fees, there would be no way to force him to pay or collect, so we would still be out the money.

Either way we get fucked by our legal system by someone who is illegally breaking it in several ways when we did everything, and then some, that we were legally and morally responsible to do. I personally keep saying we should counter-sue for it being, as I said above, a frivilous slanderous fraudulent law suit. Even if it doesn't fly in court, it has truth behind it enough to possibly scare the person into dropping the whole case for fear of legal repercutions.

I wonder what American plans to do when they run all agriculture out of the USA. I guess people won't mind paying $20 for an imported hamburger, as long as they never have to see the cow or smell it.



I have taught law school from time to time since 1995. Students often ask me if someone can sue for X. I say, sure, this is America, anyone can sue for anything. The question is, can they win?

Unfortunately, your situation is not at all unusual. Business people get sued all the time by crooked employees assisted by lawyers who either (1) don't care what the truth is, or (2) are too stupid to figure out that their client is a rip-off artist. Years ago, when I did business and insurance litigation, I had to defend clients in lawsuits that were essentially the result of enormous stupidity or greed on the part of the plaintiffs. At some point, the insurance carrier would tell us to settle, because the cost of Trial (and potential exposure) were getting too high.

Bear in mind that insurance companies don't get rich giving away money, so they will only settle if it makes economic sense for them to do so. An old saying at Liberty Mutual (which was good about paying claims) was "Friend or Foe, We Pay No Dough." The word "principle" (as opposed to "principal") has little meaning for the insurance industry - it's purely about money.

The key issue is whether or not your insurance carrier (assuming you are not self-insured) will cover the defense costs and liability on a discrimination claim. Don't assume that the lawyers your insurance company has assigned will tell you this. They get paid by the carrier, not you.

Good luck in working your way through these problems. When it rains, it pours.

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:32:17 AM EDT
nfalawyer, I may not say it with all the advice you give, but thanks. Sometimes it's nice to vent, but sometimes it's nice to get someone talking aback. This is one of those times. So even if I don't say it, I appreciate it.

You sound like you have had your turn around the legal block. It seems like you have experience it nea every field. We have a personal lawyer for our bussiness who covers all the legalities of the ranching bussiness (taxes, any official papers, etc) but I don't know how experienced he is with this type of legal dispute. I don't think it will mater either way, because as you said, the greed eventually outewighs the court costs and we will basically be forced to setlle. When it rains, it pours, and when it pours, it's in buckets.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:27:55 PM EDT
Which is why people make lawyer jokes all the time. Unfortunately, there is often more than a little truth to the jokes.

I've been practicing law since 1982, first in Boston and since 1986 in San Diego, CA. You're right, I've done a sorts of law over the years, although I've not done any tax law, agricultural / water law, trusts & estates, or criminal. Most of my work has been in civil litigation (business, commercial creditor, product liability & construction defect in the early years, and 19+ years doing primarily family law and some NFA regulatory work). The civil litigation side got old fast. Family law gets tiresome sometimes, but at least I feel like I'm helping my clients in a very direct and meaningful way when I go to the office every day. Today, I spent 9 hours working ona custody & visitation case. Can't get much more personal and direct than that.

I'm supposed to be a panelist on a group addressing the California Judges Association Annual Meeting in a few weeks. I'll keep your situation in mind when we are discussing public perceptions regarding the judiciary and the legal system, since that is going to be one of the focus points for the panel, which is being moderated by a professor from Harvard Law (a competitor school, since I graduated from Columbia Law).

Hope your problems get resolved in a positive way (well, at least as much as possible, considering that the only person with a positive balance in his or her bank account will be your lawyer).

Regards,
Charles
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