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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/1/2006 11:20:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 11:20:57 AM EDT by photoman]
One of the questions/comments by one of the WSC justices in the hamdan decision revolved around guns in gun safes in the home and how if the safe had a solid front to it that it was CCW, but if it had a glass front or a viewing window(something like that) that you could see the gun or part of the gun through then it wasn't.

My question is in regards to something similar, but with a holstered firearm.

If I carry a pistol in my IWB but don't wear a cover garment, would that in your opinion still be CCW or would it be open carry. I ask because I noticed that even with the IWB if I put my hands down at my sides, the firearm is not covered by my hands/arms, it's still visable(well the portion thats not in the holster).

I'd really like to hear the thoughts of our Wi LEOs on this in particular but anyone else thats got thier own $.02 on this feel free to chime in(this is ARFcom so I'm sure yall will anyway)

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:16:13 PM EDT
It's not addressed in statute, so it's open to interpretation. I haven't personally dealt with this exact issue because I haven't been sent to any "open carry" calls. The people I've charged with CCW met two criteria: 1) they got arrested doing something illegal & stupid--usually assaults, always while drunk--that brought them to my attention, and 2) the weapon was completely concealed.

The local practice regarding carrying knives is this: Dropped inside a pocket = concealed. Using a pocket clip to carry it inside the pocket = unconcealed (even though most of the knife is not actually visible). Using a recognizable belt pouch to carry folding knife = unconcealed. This is also interpretation, so I don't know how much would transfer to your local law enforcement agency and/or prosecutor.

I'll wait for any more LE to chime in.

This isn't legal advice, consult with a lawyer, use at your own risk, check expiration date before using, you must be this high to ride this ride, etc. etc.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:32:54 PM EDT
Thanks for the responce Glenn.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:34:46 PM EDT
If you double check the dnr laws on carry handgun, if i remember correctly it states that holster must have full flap covering weapon "basicly in a case attached to belt". And depending on interpretation its not exacly legal to carry a weapon open or CCW unless transporting "what exactly fall into transporting im not sure"

I know i know i dont like it either, As for concealment percentage of holster I am not sure

but you know what for the next year or so until we get the CCW passed id ask that you leave 100% of the holster exposed. This is not a legal request or anything, Just something to think about, last thing we need right now is bad publicity or arguments with law enforcers or makers on whats legal and whats not.

I am not trying to take away your rights or tell you what to do, just asking we all be a little cautous as we dont need to help the super liberals

Ill break out the regbook and double check to see if i remeber corectly
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:40:06 PM EDT
cant find it on their site for direct linking but did find this

http://www.wsll.state.wi.us/topic/firearms.html
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:47:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:53:10 PM EDT by CrotalusCo]
bah see look there I was wrong, The holster with flap completly covering the handgun was in reference to transpotation in a vehicle.

Also discovered ive been breaking the law. Unloaded also refers to there being NO ammo in the magazine. Ha bet alot of us are breaking that one, how many drive to range with fully loaded mags, even though the mags are not in the gun


bah dont listen to me i cant make heads or tales of this , and im not hiring a lawyer to explain it to me
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:52:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
Unloaded also refers to there being NO ammo in the magazine. Ha bet alot of us are breaking that one, how many drive to range with fully loaded mags, even though the mags are not in the gun



Cite? Loaded mags NOT attached to the firearm are fine, even in the same case.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:01:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 2:02:00 PM EDT by CrotalusCo]

Page 15, general hunting "arms transportation"

Unloaded means any of the following.
1. Having no shell or cartridge in the chamber of a firearm or in the magazine, clip, or cylindar attached to a firearm.




looking at it again i see the "attached to a firearm" part well thats good-- however-- that comma after magazine could be constuied as a seperation of "Having no shell or cartridge in the chamber of a firearm or in the magazine" and " or cylindar attached to a firearm" refering to two different situations jeesh i hate lawyers but your prob right and im sure there is precedent on this

again i repeat dont listen to me
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:18:38 PM EDT
another useful link though it does not cover your original question

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=WI
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:46:22 PM EDT
A lot of these resources are in the Legal FAQ at the top of this forum

Welcome to the site!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:01:54 PM EDT
glenn_r: Can you elaborate a bit on the knife issue? Is a knife OK if it is "unconcealed" as you mentioned, with a clip or belt pouch?
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:17:34 PM EDT
lol I love this one

Armor-piercing ammunition prohibited in handguns when committing a crime. Statute 941.296
but regular ammo is ok then LOL

Anyway while on the topic of laws, Am I wrong in this, isnt it a federal law to carry a weapon into a bank? or do banks fall into the "building owned or leased by the federal gov" due to the fdic insuring
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:07:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
lol I love this one

Armor-piercing ammunition prohibited in handguns when committing a crime. Statute 941.296
but regular ammo is ok then LOL

Anyway while on the topic of laws, Am I wrong in this, isnt it a federal law to carry a weapon into a bank? or do banks fall into the "building owned or leased by the federal gov" due to the fdic insuring



No, no federal law bans guns in banks. I used to carry to the bank when I lived in Connecticut all the time. Some states ban carrying into a bank but no federal law.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:22:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
lol I love this one

Armor-piercing ammunition prohibited in handguns when committing a crime. Statute 941.296
but regular ammo is ok then LOL

Anyway while on the topic of laws, Am I wrong in this, isnt it a federal law to carry a weapon into a bank? or do banks fall into the "building owned or leased by the federal gov" due to the fdic insuring



Hah, thats funny. Almost as good as what i read in a turbo tax FAQ. It actually said all money that you steal, receive through a bribe, or earn from selling things such as illegal narcotics, must be reported in your income tax. Like they are really going to do that
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:50:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 7:59:58 PM EDT by glenn_r]

Originally Posted By diesel1:
glenn_r: Can you elaborate a bit on the knife issue? Is a knife OK if it is "unconcealed" as you mentioned, with a clip or belt pouch?



Locally, yes, it's fine, barring any unusual factors. Just don't pull it out, wave it around screaming how bad a mofo you are, threaten to cut your enemies, then put it on your belt unconcealed and think that will work well for you

There might be local variables, though. Local governments can pass restrictions on blade length (some are listed in the Legal FAQ, although I don't claim the FAQ is comprehensive). Local government can regulate knife carry because there's no state pre-emption for knife laws.

I'd recommend asking your local DA if you have specific concerns.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 12:52:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 12:52:37 PM EDT by CrotalusCo]
the concealment of a knife only factors in on blades over 3" in length yes? Under that not considered a weapon. Or NO if the cop wanted to be an A "no offense" he could get you for concealing a little pocket knife in your pocket?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 6:52:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 6:53:14 PM EDT by glenn_r]

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
the concealment of a knife only factors in on blades over 3" in length yes? Under that not considered a weapon. Or NO if the cop wanted to be an A "no offense" he could get you for concealing a little pocket knife in your pocket?



Knife length is not a factor in statute. All knives are, by definition, dangerous weapons. Someone who knows what they're doing can make a mess with a 2" blade.

However, I don't know a cop who's arrested someone for a 2" knife any knife in their pocket without any other circumstances. If you PULL that knife and wave it in someone's face, that would clearly change things.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:38:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Knife length is not a factor in statute. All knives are, by definition, dangerous weapons. Someone who knows what they're doing can make a mess with a 2" blade.

However, I don't know a cop who's arrested someone for a 2" knife any knife in their pocket without any other circumstances. If you PULL that knife and wave it in someone's face, that would clearly change things.



Glenn, do I understand you correctly that carrying ANY knife in your pocket is carrying a concealed weapon? Wow, if thats so I've been a criminal nearly every day for the last 30+ years...
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:01:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 5:05:57 AM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By 91101:

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Knife length is not a factor in statute. All knives are, by definition, dangerous weapons. Someone who knows what they're doing can make a mess with a 2" blade.

However, I don't know a cop who's arrested someone for a 2" knife any knife in their pocket without any other circumstances. If you PULL that knife and wave it in someone's face, that would clearly change things.



Glenn, do I understand you correctly that carrying ANY knife in your pocket is carrying a concealed weapon? Wow, if thats so I've been a criminal nearly every day for the last 30+ years...



91101: I believe that Glenn was saying that you could be construed as to having a CW for a pocket knife in your pocket.

I think we discussed this exact situation a while ago, and the fictional description of an LEO in red was what I described as a "nut case cop". I also believe that Glenn has ascribed a defacto trademark to my ownership of said term.


ETA: Therefore if you see the term "Nut Case Cop" on the internet, it should be followed with (™ FMD).
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:11:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 5:20:29 AM EDT by glenn_r]

Originally Posted By 91101:

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Knife length is not a factor in statute. All knives are, by definition, dangerous weapons.



Glenn, do I understand you correctly that carrying ANY knife in your pocket is carrying a concealed weapon? Wow, if thats so I've been a criminal nearly every day for the last 30+ years...



Technically, yes you have

Statute 939.22(10) defines "dangerous weapons". Knives clearly fall under that definition. However, neither I nor anyone I work with are going to look twice at someone carrying a buck knife in their pocket--unless a reliable report comes in of how they just threatened the guy around the corner with the knife. Otherwise, it's an apple corer as far as I'm concerned. Want to avoid any chance of problems? Don't conceal it--wear it on a belt pouch or use a pocket clip.

I recommend against carrying any of the "brass knuckle" knives or those sorts of things. Certainly do NOT carry an illegal knife like a butterfly or switchblade knife. Anything that screams "I'm designed to kill people" will attract unwanted attention should it be found in your pocket. Leave the Rambo knives at home. Anything those things will do can be done just as well with a Spyderco or Benchmade. And I'll congratulate you on your taste and ask how much you paid instead of rolling my eyes at the mall ninja-ness of it all.

And once again, this is local practice. I can't speak for practices in other areas. Maybe some agencies bust people for carrying a Swiss Army knife or a Leatherman concealed in a pocket. We don't.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:24:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 7:27:04 AM EDT by --bullseye--]
I have one of these in the closet. Your telling me even though it's in a pouch on my belt you would arrest me?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 10:00:21 AM EDT
If you want to carry a pistol or long gun, do not carry it in a threatening manner. The pistol should be in a holster, whether IWB or outside holster, practice keeping 1/4 showing. The law is not clear, it is vague enough to test in court. Beware of the " disturbing the peace" charge. It will be used by an officer but thrown out in court. After time and money
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 10:29:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

... the fictional description of an LEO in red was what I described as a "nut case cop". I also believe that Glenn has ascribed a defacto trademark to my ownership of said term.

ETA: Therefore if you see the term "Nut Case Cop" on the internet, it should be followed with (™ FMD).



Yup. FMD, IM me with instructions on how to get "TM" in small print, because I don't know how to perform that essential skill

Bullseye, is that a Rambo knife in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 10:35:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:
Technically, yes you have

Statute 939.22(10) defines "dangerous weapons". Knives clearly fall under that definition. However, neither I nor anyone I work with are going to look twice at someone carrying a buck knife in their pocket--unless a reliable report comes in of how they just threatened the guy around the corner with the knife. Otherwise, it's an apple corer as far as I'm concerned. Want to avoid any chance of problems? Don't conceal it--wear it on a belt pouch or use a pocket clip.

I recommend against carrying any of the "brass knuckle" knives or those sorts of things. Certainly do NOT carry an illegal knife like a butterfly or switchblade knife. Anything that screams "I'm designed to kill people" will attract unwanted attention should it be found in your pocket. Leave the Rambo knives at home. Anything those things will do can be done just as well with a Spyderco or Benchmade. And I'll congratulate you on your taste and ask how much you paid instead of rolling my eyes at the mall ninja-ness of it all.

And once again, this is local practice. I can't speak for practices in other areas. Maybe some agencies bust people for carrying a Swiss Army knife or a Leatherman concealed in a pocket. We don't.



Thanks for the reply... I carry a Smith & Wesson Homeland Security that has a 2" blade so I'm not likely to be doing any drive-by slashings anytime soon but nice to know that I could be pinched for having it... (not that I'm gunna stop) The thing that I find amusing is that I have a buddy that has worked his way from jail duty to Chief Deputy in a local Sherrif's Department and he's never told me that...
BTW I'm not saying that I don't belive you I just find it odd that I've never heard that before...
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 10:38:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
ETA: Therefore if you see the term "Nut Case Cop" on the internet, it should be followed with (™ FMD).



Thanks for the heads up FMD. I'll make sure I don't infringe on your copyright without giving you credit...
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 10:44:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:
FMD, IM me with instructions on how to get "TM" in small print, because I don't know how to perform that essential skill.



Done.

91101, Don't worry about it. We know where it came from, and that's enough.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:16:27 AM EDT
From my personal experience, a knife in your pocket via the pocket clip is a concealed weapon. At least in Kenosha.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:06:54 AM EDT
MisterPX,

IM sent.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:07:36 AM EDT
Well didn't this just get a bit OT
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