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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/26/2005 7:23:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 7:23:58 PM EDT by leelaw]
I'm working on a prototype detachable magazine, .22LR-ONLY AR15 (only checking to see that it works with the Bushmaster .22lr conversion kits) and am trying to gauge what kind of interest there is out there for such a rifle in CA?

Still working out the details, and am in talks with the DOJ.. hope to get a prototype sent out within the next month or so for approval.

So what say ye, CA-ARFCOMers - keep it to myself or look into distribution?
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:52:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 8:53:03 PM EDT by Chaingun]
Have you seen the thread at CalGuns about the non-AR receiver design that would accept both AR mags and different uppers, but no pistol grip? I think this is more of interest, but the guy quit designing it.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:20:33 PM EDT
I love .22's, but I have had more than my fill of them. There's already so many options available (especially if you're looking for that tactical look, like the AR15):

10/22 with the multitude of stocks
Krinker Plinker
Evolution
Rhineland
AR-7
Feather AT-22

and on and on.

If this is a serious business venture, you've gotta look at the pre-existing market, and your competition.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:24:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 10:24:37 PM EDT by leelaw]

Originally Posted By TKoProductions:
If this is a serious business venture, you've gotta look at the pre-existing market, and your competition.



I'm looking at getting a design approved for personal use, and was wondering if the interest existed in CA for possibly selling the designs, or getting into an agreement with a current manufacturer to distribute modified receivers for the .22LR only conversion.

Thing I like about it is that you can keep the pistol grip on, and have your detachable magazine.. only drawback (indeed the only difference from a real AR) is that it will ONLY accept .22LR magazines.

It's my first .22, so I'm pretty excited, and I love ARs, so it feels like the best of both worlds to me, especially since I was too young to get a real AR before the ban was enacted
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:44:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 10:59:02 PM EDT by TKoProductions]

Originally Posted By leelaw:

Originally Posted By TKoProductions:
If this is a serious business venture, you've gotta look at the pre-existing market, and your competition.



I'm looking at getting a design approved for personal use, and was wondering if the interest existed in CA for possibly selling the designs, or getting into an agreement with a current manufacturer to distribute modified receivers for the .22LR only conversion.

Thing I like about it is that you can keep the pistol grip on, and have your detachable magazine.. only drawback (indeed the only difference from a real AR) is that it will ONLY accept .22LR magazines.

It's my first .22, so I'm pretty excited, and I love ARs, so it feels like the best of both worlds to me, especially since I was too young to get a real AR before the ban was enacted




I don't know of any manufacturers who are actively engaging in joint ventures or pursuing purchasing designs. Wish I could help you out with that. Maybe someone else knows.

Unless you've got a real novel idea with an absolutely untapped market, it just seems like a hard sell. Most of the larger manufacturers have the money to dump into R&D and would have come up with something if they had any intention or motivation. It just doesn't seem like they would be interested in engaging in business with a second party, or purchasing a design to build and market a product which they could design themself.

Most of the CA legal assault weapon alteratives seem to come out of the amateur machinist's garage. You may think about marketing a kit or the designs. Although I do have to say, selling designs never seems to be all that profitable of an endevour.

Sounds like you've got an idea to permanently fix some sort of block into the magwell, so that it only accepts the ciener .22 magazines?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 2:23:28 AM EDT
I'd be in for at least one probably more
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:16:45 AM EDT
I'll be in for one also!
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:40:36 AM EDT
In all honesty I would rather see an AR in 17HMR or a M1A1 in 22 Mag before I saw another 22lr
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:10:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
In all honesty I would rather see an AR in 17HMR or a M1A1 in 22 Mag before I saw another 22lr



Someone make a conversion kit for that? I personally only know of the .22LR as the only rimfire conversions.

Not in it to make money, and figured it would be a crappy market to break into. At this point, if I get approval, I think it will turn into a "I'll send you the plans and DOJ letter and you can choose to donate to help me recoop R&D costs" project.

looks like it will need to be done on home-machined 80%ers... unless DOJ authorizes importing real AR15 receivers to my FFL (AW-licensed) and modifying them there and redistributing the now non-AWs.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:16:02 AM EDT
I would be interested, especially if you could design it to fit the Ruger 10/22 magazine. That way, I could use my "pre-ban" RamLine and ButlerCreek 25 and 50 round mags in it!!
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:43:53 AM EDT
I'll take one.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:04:59 PM EDT
There is no 17 conversion that I know of, but there was a 'sleeve' that inserts into the barrel to make it a 17 caliber rifle. Sounds kind of crappy to me. I was talking to someone at Rimfirecentral who had taken a 10/22 barrel to a gunsmith and had them turn the barrel to the AR's specs and had the receiver end modified to match the AR's also, so it could just be dropped in. I am sure you could find a stronger buffer spring from McMaster Carr that would let you use the 17HMR. A similar thing could probably be done with an M1A1 clone.

I also saw a topic a while ago about a guy in California who built an AR from an 80% and welded a strip of metal in the mag well and then notched the 22 mag behind the feeding lips so that it could fit in the mag well but a normal AR's mag couldn't.

I am pretty sure I have an email response from the DOJ that says that an AR in rimfire is not illegal and that an AR receiver modified in a way that allows rimfire use and can not be reversed to fire centerfire ammo would be legal. I'm not at home, but when I do get home I will try to find it and post it.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 9:01:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
There is no 17 conversion that I know of, but there was a 'sleeve' that inserts into the barrel to make it a 17 caliber rifle. Sounds kind of crappy to me. I was talking to someone at Rimfirecentral who had taken a 10/22 barrel to a gunsmith and had them turn the barrel to the AR's specs and had the receiver end modified to match the AR's also, so it could just be dropped in. I am sure you could find a stronger buffer spring from McMaster Carr that would let you use the 17HMR. A similar thing could probably be done with an M1A1 clone.

I also saw a topic a while ago about a guy in California who built an AR from an 80% and welded a strip of metal in the mag well and then notched the 22 mag behind the feeding lips so that it could fit in the mag well but a normal AR's mag couldn't.

I am pretty sure I have an email response from the DOJ that says that an AR in rimfire is not illegal and that an AR receiver modified in a way that allows rimfire use and can not be reversed to fire centerfire ammo would be legal. I'm not at home, but when I do get home I will try to find it and post it.

Good luck.



Sounds promising. I'd be concerned about how to get the magazines to work in an AR15 mag well..

The mod you mentioned sounds similar to my idea, and judging from the description it will lead to approval, however I'm going to try to keep the details hush until I finally get approved/declined.. Don't want to raise too many hopes or get anyone to rush to buy 80% receivers and mod them only to find out that the mod isn't allowed.

Will update as things progress.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:18:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 2:20:07 AM EDT by NeoWeird]


Dear Mr. ******:

In response to your correspondence, assault weapons as defined by California Penal Code section 12276.1 would exclude a rifle that fires only .22 cal rimfire ammunition.

Sincerely,
Mr. Dana McKinnon
Field Representative
Firearms Division
(916) 263-4881



I could have sworn when I first got it (quite a while ago) it made clear mention of an AR modified to take only rimfire ammo, but that is the response in its entirety.

ETA:


Dear Mr. ******,

Thank you for your inquiry.

California law prohibits a person from building his or her own handgun for personal use pursuant to Penal Code section 12125. However, one can build a long gun as long as it is not an assault weapon under California law. Additionally, long guns must have a serial number assigned to them.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact the Firearms Division at 916-263-4887.

Sincerely,



Lisa Strange, Analyst
Firearms Division
(916) 263-4882
Lisa.Strange@doj.ca.gov

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