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Posted: 1/23/2022 10:38:05 AM EDT
Anybody here a member of Front Sight?  I have been a member for many years and taken lots of classes there (in Pahrump).  Everybody who joined paid a one time fee for what was supposed to be a lifetime but they just decided to make everyone pay $50/month in fees now, just to keep their membership, in addition to more fees for taking a class.  So, looks like I won't be a member any longer.  If you're a current member, are you going to pay the fees?
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 11:53:23 AM EDT
[#1]
Do you get your one lifetime fee back?
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 2:06:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 5:49:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Azygos] [#3]
It’s a marked change from the terms under which any of us purchased our lifetime memberships.

In particular, the lifetime memberships were billed as a single purchase good for attending all courses “free of charge.”

It’s probably legally actionable. Even without a signed agreement, a boatload of people can attest to the terms described with their membership purchases.
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 6:30:43 PM EDT
[#4]
Did they file for bankruptcy?  

If so that may nullify the life memberships ?
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 6:46:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Azygos] [#5]
I’m not aware of any bankruptcy, but it sure smells like a run-up to filing. Over on NVshooters, they’re talking about the changes. I didn’t see bankruptcy mentioned. Someone attended a class recently and said Ackerman took a lot of heat for the changes, and they’d lost a lot of instructors.

Hope you guys don’t mind me invading your hometown forum from Idaho, by the way.

IMO the training is not good enough for this new round of idiocy unless you attend many classes. Costa over in Thayne, WY is just $925 for a 3 day handgun class. I’ve trained with Chris and would recommend him over spending the same amount to keep a Front Sight membership active for 2 years.
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:24:04 PM EDT
[#6]
$500/year to maintain your once "lifetime" membership
All kids classes cancelled
They stripped all bonuses and extra vouchers (gun rental, non-existant hotel stay, etc) from all accounts
All ammunition shot at Front Sight must now be purchased at Front Sight.
Front Sight Alaska closed

To take a class:
$25/day Staff fee
$25/day Facility fee
$25/day Liability Insurance fee (unless you can prove you carry $100K policy)

They're done, ladies and gents. I bet 95%+ of their membership walks away and doesn't look back. I know I am. If someone decides to get a class-action suit together, I'm there.
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:50:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nickmimi] [#7]
We became members when it cost more thn a few hundred dollars for a membership. Unlike when he started selling the diamond memberships for $250. I can say that I have done a few of the lower end upgrades but saw no "refunds" in their fsbucks in my account.

To me, it seems like one last money grab before filing and closing.

 I can say that my family and everyone I know will be walking away from frontsight which accounts for at least 25-30 people that we brought in through memberships gifts.
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:51:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wolfpack] [#8]
Dupe. WP
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:55:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wolfpack] [#9]
Dupe. WP

Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:55:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wolfpack] [#10]
Dupe. WP
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:59:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Weird.  kept getting an error when trying to submit reply
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 7:59:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Sounds like the next step before filing for bankruptcy.  The hook appears to be going deeper by requiring $500 ransom to keep whatever assets one may have accumulated (minus what was taken away already).  Not clear whether the FS-Bucks purchase of ammo, pro-shop goodies, etc. will require a cash match.  Class-action anyone?
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 8:07:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Gonna' mull it over a few days and monitor the reactions.  I see no mention of compensating those that bought into the vacation villa promotion.  A class-action suit won't surprise me and I'd bet bankruptcy will be the result very soon for his protection.
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 8:28:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Azygos] [#14]
It’s a clumsy exit strategy, but it seems likely.

The email rants about members not stepping up gives room to say the remaining legal bills are higher than the assets. They’ve already paid a lot of legal bills, they’ll say, but now they need to tighten their belts and have more support to survive.  

Throw in a little L Ron Hubbard philosophy in the emails berating members (4 levels of exchange) and demanding more money.

Class action suit. FS folds. Piazza and his now even wealthier attorneys move on. They all already got paid.

If he’s already sold, leased, or otherwise encumbered the land for FS, then that’s just another good middle finger to members.
Link Posted: 1/24/2022 12:47:18 AM EDT
[#15]
I bought my membership for $250 in 2010 or so. I paid two backgrounds $100)  and that’s it. I’ve attended a total of 6 classes.

If people like me are the ones that walk away, he hasn’t lost anything—he’ll save money by needing less instructors.

What I don’t get is the massive expansion with the other bank of ranges, and even the house at the entrance. They seem to be relatively new construction, yet he talks about 4 years of litigation.

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
Link Posted: 1/24/2022 12:02:58 PM EDT
[#16]
I've only attended a couple 4-day classes over the last 3 years, and have/had a diamond membership, but I'm done with them.  Berating us for not funding legal action due to his screw ups?  Yeah... Nice way to treat your membership.

Pound sand, Piazza.
Link Posted: 1/24/2022 3:40:33 PM EDT
[#17]
just got the voicemail haven't received any emails or snail mail in years.  I'm in about $350 and went to 1 class.  People were always saying it had to be some kind of scam and here we are the old bait and switch.
They're done, the amount of lawsuits will be staggering.  Anyone that gives them another dime at this point is a complete and udder buffoon should get a Christmas card from the lawyers.
Link Posted: 1/24/2022 4:32:58 PM EDT
[#18]
I'll preface this by saying, I'm a police officer and Piazza is no different that the subjects I contact constantly, who do something stupid but think it's my fault they are in trouble.

Just for that reason alone, I won't be continuing my membership under the new rules.

I've attended a few courses on certificates from Ebay, and was gifted a Commander-level membership from one of the people I bought a certificate from.

Once per year I would take two weeks off, take two four day courses, and spend time in Vegas in between.

The only money Front Sight saw from any of that was the $50 background checks and the $60 sunglasses I bought at the pro shop once, because I stepped on mine.

From the beginning I've believed his business model was unsustainable:  He's been giving away his means to make money to other people.

Imagine if Ford gave people who bought Fords the ability to give away or sell Fords to other people...  without even giving Ford a cut...   but Ford still had to build the car.

The training is OK, a bit outdated but fine for the vast majority of people...  better than the training most gun owners get, which is none.  It's sad that an easily accessible and inexpensive (if done intelligently) source of training is going to disappear, but he did it to himself.

I won't be paying the new fees, and I agree this is likely a scheme to wring as much cash out of members as possible before bankruptcy.
Link Posted: 1/24/2022 9:45:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cacafuego] [#19]
I've been a member since '08, '09. Went a lot for the first few years, then they changed the classes and the quality of the instructor cadre declined noticeably, and I stopped going so much. At some point they improved the classes, but not, as far as I saw, the instructors. But I've been there 30-ish times. (I've also trained elsewhere, with instructors you'll have heard of if you're into that.)

I will not be paying.

1. It's too much money. $500/year, plus $75/day - for two 2-day classes a year that's $800, and for that (maybe a bit more than that, $50 or $100) you can take two classes from well-known and much better instructors. You'd have to take 4 classes a year to start to get value, and you're still giving up quality of instruction. And that's before you buy ammo from Piazza (now required), for whatever he feels like charging. I suspect there will be few bargains.

2. In any event I don't believe that Piazza has any intention of keeping the place open as currently constituted. He cannot believe that he'll be able to get away with breaching contract with his (claimed) quarter of a million members. Also, the language he's used for the last few years - talking about the "adversary," quasi-religious stuff - now turned on the membership: Levels of exchange? Is that Hubbardism stuff? He's cast the members as the new adversary, to excuse his actions. He's washing his hands of us.

Everyone knows Piazza's marketing has always been as cringey as it could possibly be. I never read his cringey-ass e-mails wanting me to pony up $120K - A HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND FUCKING DOLLARS - for a faggoty sword and the chance to train privately with instructors whose only credential is they've taken some classes (less than I have, almost certainly) at Font Sight. So If he asked nicely for $50, I missed it, because why would I read his dumbass e-mail? I always thought he might try to get people to pay, despite the lifetime memberships, and if he'd gone about it reasonably I might have coughed up some $$. But he didn't go about it reasonably, he was a cunt about it, so he can eat all the dicks. If there's a way to recoup anything from him I'm in.

As someone mentioned there's been a lot of money sunk into improvements on the facility, and I fully expect it to re-emerge as a new legal entity, through bankruptcy or some such, and wiping away all the memberships. Selling to a shell corp that Piazza owns? Nothing will surprise me. I used to think the place was probably a way to launder money.

As someone said above, it was good while it lasted. I'll miss it. But I'm not sending Piazza another nickel.



Link Posted: 1/24/2022 9:54:28 PM EDT
[#20]
My free lifetime membership will expire the when the $50.00 isn't paid.
Link Posted: 1/25/2022 2:52:13 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deadmeat99:
$500/year to maintain your once "lifetime" membership
All kids classes cancelled
They stripped all bonuses and extra vouchers (gun rental, non-existent hotel stay, etc) from all accounts
All ammunition shot at Front Sight must now be purchased at Front Sight.
Front Sight Alaska closed

To take a class:
$25/day Staff fee
$25/day Facility fee
$25/day Liability Insurance fee (unless you can prove you carry $100K policy)

They're done, ladies and gents. I bet 95%+ of their membership walks away and doesn't look back. I know I am. If someone decides to get a class-action suit together, I'm there.
View Quote


Overall, this.

IMHO one of the big things keeping a lot of people around is the relatively low cost.

Additionally, I think cancelling the kids classes could have some especially negative effects on membership.  I was invited by family (decently sized group with young kids) to participate in the 4-day handgun course awhile back, and I noticed the kids classes seemed pretty full.  I would bet a lot of parents went to FS simply because they provided something to occupy the kiddos while mom and dad get to take a 2-4 day class.  Those people will potentially have a much harder time attending, or just won't at all.


Link Posted: 1/25/2022 11:21:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: chiz45] [#22]
At the last 2 day I attended, I’d estimate 1/3 of the 40 students came from CA, 1/3 from eastern states, and the rest from Vegas. It surprised me just how many people from the Midwest were there. I was attached to a MN family of 5—grandma, son, his wife, and their son and his wife. These folks were taking a 4 day and time in Vegas itself was limited to a day trip. Their entire trip centered around this class. I wouldn’t be surprised if this family took out a loan and paid for the high dollar memberships.

Having taken classes with NV trainers PFC and LMS, I was used to $150-$200/day for classes. How FS did it for so long without any additional contributions from us didn’t make sense. If they were getting referral fees from hotels or restaurants, that makes sense.

I took 2 2 day classes at FS in October, and a 5 hour class at PFC in December. I consider FS like range practice, and with PFC learning new things. Each outfit has their strengths and weaknesses, but I know who I’m spending future dollars with.
Link Posted: 1/25/2022 10:14:05 PM EDT
[#23]
This is a huge indicator the place is done. When they are having you pay for their instructor with the daily fee, a fee for the range, and a fee for the insurance, it shows they don't have the money to continue to operate.

I have a few memberships that will now be worthless. Oh well, it was good while it lasted. They still owe me 2 guns too!
Link Posted: 1/25/2022 11:19:38 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UV18:
.. They still owe me 2 guns too!
View Quote


I hope you saw that they’re just converting the value of those guns to account credits for you…
Link Posted: 1/26/2022 2:05:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chiz45:
I hope you saw that they’re just converting the value of those guns to account credits for you…
View Quote


Converting it into more fake Piazza Bucks that he can then change the terms for on a whim.

Why do I get the feeling he'll come out with a SUPER DUPER SEEKRIT OFFER FOR OUR MOST LOYAL FS PATRIOTS offer on Feb27th to try and lure in the 200000 members who haven't paid their $500 maintenance fee. It'll probably involve more fake Piazza Bucks.
Link Posted: 1/27/2022 8:55:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Deadmeat99] [#26]
What a charlatan, either he finally realized he was about to bankrupt the entire operation or it was all a big loyalty test:

Front Sight's Restructure on HOLD to Gain Input and Consensus from Members.

I would first like to thank the thousands of members, who upon seeing the email about Front Sight's restructure of our policies, procedures and fees, immediately purchased their Membership Maintenance Fees and sent us positive emails of understanding and support. These members truly showed their care, loyalty and support for Front Sight and I will never forget them. To THANK these members, who during a very challenging time, stepped up and made the decision to support Front Sight for the greater good, I am designating them as GOLD STAR MEMBERS.

To THANK these members, who during a very challenging time, stepped up and made the decision to support Front Sight for the greater good, I am designating them as GOLD STAR MEMBERS. Their Membership will remain the same level, but their account will have a gold star on it so the Concierge staff will know these members are the best of the best. I have also ordered very attractive gold star pins to wear on a lapel or hat, that these members will receive on their next visit, so Front Sight staff will recognize our GOLD STAR Members as the best of the best Front Sight members.

As an additional show of my thanks and gratitude for our GOLD STAR Members, I am placing 5-10 TIMES what you paid for your Membership Maintenance Fees into your F$ Bucks account

View Quote


I knew it, more fake Piazza bucks and a retraction of everything. Eat shit you scam artist.

Link Posted: 1/29/2022 12:31:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chiz45:


I hope you saw that they’re just converting the value of those guns to account credits for you…
View Quote


Well, the recant has me wondering. I better get on it now!
Link Posted: 1/29/2022 3:43:35 AM EDT
[#28]
Hahaha, a $0.39 pin and a bs emblem, all that for pouring even more money into the burning dumpster that is front sight.
Link Posted: 1/29/2022 1:45:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greyknight:
Hahaha, a $0.39 pin and a bs emblem, all that for pouring even more money into the burning dumpster that is front sight.
View Quote

Don't overlook the immense satisfaction of watching a good dumpster fire. That has to be worth something too.
Link Posted: 1/29/2022 1:59:17 PM EDT
[#30]
I bought a membership about 10 years ago and have never been. Funny thing is I’m probably going to retire in a few months and actually thought about going to some of these classes. Looks like that’s not going to happen now.
Link Posted: 1/29/2022 4:18:01 PM EDT
[#31]
I always thought it might be a good place to check out. Lots of friends have been there.

Too bad something like this turned into a wreck and will probably fold.
Link Posted: 1/29/2022 6:13:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Bohica!
Link Posted: 1/30/2022 12:16:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Yikes to everything I've heard about it going back years.  And a yeek thrown in too.
Link Posted: 1/31/2022 2:31:58 PM EDT
[#34]
I'm glad I was able to get the training I have received, with the money I have spent.  I think it worked out to about $68 per 4-day class I've taken.  Can't beat that.
Link Posted: 2/3/2022 9:36:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Back in '08, I thought about the doing "Lifetime" membership thing but only briefly. The 'ol gut feeling thing and bullshit detector were telling me to steer clear of this. I never signed up for anything they had to offer. Long time ago, I had to block all of the bullshit emails from Piazza, they ended their relentless email crap and gave up on me.

I pity those that got duped into signing up with these guys.

Link Posted: 2/3/2022 5:40:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 2/3/2022 9:02:09 PM EDT
[#37]
I supposed it all depends on when you got in (if you got in) and what "upgrades" you chose to do.  I did some.  $2200 in a membership and upgrades over the last 16 years.  32 classes in that time.  Definitely got my $ worth, even if it all falls apart now.
Link Posted: 2/4/2022 2:17:24 AM EDT
[#38]
I was doing the mental math too. $250 9/12 membership, + $100 in backgrounds = $350.

1 x 4 day
3 x 2 day
2 x 1 day private

I paid $350 or $400 for a 2 day rifle class through another group, so I feel that I got my money’s worth.
Link Posted: 2/9/2022 11:24:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Col_Sanders] [#39]
The whole business model seemed unsustainable to me.  Too many free memberships and free training?  Who could have seen that failing.  
Link Posted: 2/9/2022 1:42:54 PM EDT
[#40]
I have all the Front Sight emails going to a special folder because Piazza spams so much and the most recent email states that if you don't want to pay the $500 yearly fee, you can still keep your membership.  I guess I'm still a member for now.  I have a friend who paid the $500x2 for her and her husband (they are from California) and I hope she gets to attend classes this year after paying that.  Like many others have posted, I'm not putting more money into this program that looks like it's going away.  If fees are reasonable, I might take another class this year before Front Sight disappears for good.  The classes are fun and can be worth the daily fee, but I'm not paying an additional $500/yr for a place that could close up at any time.
Link Posted: 2/15/2022 2:36:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Since COVID I hadn't taken any classes out there & like so many others, I have Piazza's incessant emails go direct to spam folder.  

Wasn't really following this stuff until I read this thread. None of this surprises me but it does suck.  I've taken many classes out there over the years & always enjoyed most of each class of instruction as well as always made some nice acquaintances.

The Dr won't be getting a red cent of my money moving forward. Was great while it lasted.........
Link Posted: 5/27/2022 1:29:16 AM EDT
[#42]
For anyone still following this circus, Front Sight has declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and starting June 1st *ALL* students get charged $100/day for classes. Oh and your Piazza Bucks don't cover this fee.

Link Posted: 6/3/2022 12:13:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deadmeat99:
For anyone still following this circus, Front Sight has declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and starting June 1st *ALL* students get charged $100/day for classes. Oh and your Piazza Bucks don't cover this fee.

View Quote


Stick a fork in the place.

Again, it was good while it lasted.  

Link Posted: 6/3/2022 5:43:01 PM EDT
[#44]
A buddy from work gave me a membership. He's had a class scheduled for weeks. As of June 1, it's $100/day for a class.  If they add an annual fee I'll just let my membership lapse.  I'm moving out of state next week anyway.
Link Posted: 8/7/2022 12:32:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Just curious if anyone has been to FS since the changes?
Link Posted: 8/7/2022 1:03:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Grendelsbane:
Just curious if anyone has been to FS since the changes?
View Quote


I went to the 4 day rifle class back in June. Private class with 3 of us.  I only did 3 days since i was getting ready to move. Not sure if it was just our instructor or what but  it was pretty bad. We did the same 2 and three shot drills all day on a silhouette at 7, 15, and 25 yards with a couple 50 and 100 yards mixed in here and there.  All standing, except when we zeroed.  Burned through about 600 rounds. If i had paid the full retail price for that,  i would have been pissed.

The other guys said the other courses they did were better but that one sucked.
Link Posted: 8/7/2022 2:59:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Did you have to buy their ammo?
Link Posted: 8/7/2022 3:26:26 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chiz45:
Did you have to buy their ammo?
View Quote


No. I shot stuff i bought out in town.

My buddies did buy ammo there. M855 at 80 cents oer round iirc.  They used Piazza bucks.  Ammo bunker would only sell to you if you were taking a class that day and instructor had to go in and vouch for the amount you needed.
Link Posted: 8/7/2022 3:30:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 8/8/2022 9:29:52 AM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By HK-Angel:
Anybody here a member of Front Sight?  I have been a member for many years and taken lots of classes there (in Pahrump).  Everybody who joined paid a one time fee for what was supposed to be a lifetime but they just decided to make everyone pay $50/month in fees now, just to keep their membership, in addition to more fees for taking a class.  So, looks like I won't be a member any longer.  If you're a current member, are you going to pay the fees?
View Quote


first I have heard about this but, a older vet friend of mine wanted to give me his lifetime membership, but it seems they went downhill. are they increasing fee or some shit>
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