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Posted: 1/11/2005 10:32:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 10:34:18 PM EDT by Princeton]
According to an article in the Phila Daily News it was a guy caught with a .25 cal pistol in a coat pocket during a routine traffic stop.
A plea arrangement was already negotiated so the guy got 3 years probation on a felony firearms conviction. The judge also had the guy sign a paper stating he would relinquish all currently owned firearms within 10 days since having a felony firearms conviction he cannot now or in the future own any firearms.

What was really interesting was the guy has up until that point had no contact with the police. He had no prior arrests nor was he ever in trouble with the law.

That's just total bullshit as far as I'm concerned! Here is a guy that was legally allowed to purchase and own firearms and for one mistake he gets a felony conviction. And in case you're wondering, as far as I'm concerned his only mistake was not getting a CCW for which he was entitled. Now he can no longer own a firearm for personal protection as well as the protection of his family.


If he had been caught fishing without a license he would not be barred from fishing for life, would he? NO!


Without knowing the guy personally I can only assume that he was doing what he thought was prudent, protecting himself. He was carrying a firearm. Some might argue that had he taken the time to get a CCW then he could have avoided all this. But I disagree, he (and me and you reading this) shouldn't have to get a permit to do what we are born with the right to do.

The second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms and we have allowed ourselves to believe that we must first get a permit from the state to exercise that right.



Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:05:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Princeton:
The second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms and we have allowed ourselves to believe that we must first get a permit from the state to exercise that right.



The 2nd Amendment doesn't guarantee the right, it just is a written down version of our rights that exist.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:50:21 AM EDT
As a "law abiding citizen" I have a carry permit. It's the law plain and simple. Was the punishment unduly harsh with the current feelings on guns in Philly?
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 8:32:26 AM EDT
Perfect for a first case. He got what he deserved. Zero tollerance for firearm violations in Philadelphia now. What was he too lazy to get a permit?
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:05:44 AM EDT
Here is the story from the Daily News


Gun Court debuts without a bang

By THERESA CONROY

conroyt@phillynews.com

Aside from a few special spectators and the gaggle of news reporters in attendance, Gun Court opened yesterday much the way all other courtrooms did inside the Criminal Justice Center:


A court officer called the case list, attorneys requested continuances, trials were scheduled, lawyers exchanged documents, cops exchanged laughs, defendants groused in the gallery, relatives jostled for butt space on the benches, loud talkers were hushed, and at least one parent was asked to take his babbling baby outside.


Looking down on it all was Common Pleas Judge Jeffrey Minehart, who presides over the new court venture aimed at curtailing the rampant gun violence in the city.


Looking in from the jury and gallery were officials from the First Judicial District, the public defender's office and the District Attorney's Office.


By 11 a.m. - after the morning list was called twice and at least a dozen of the court's 400 cases were assigned trial dates - the very first Gun Court defendant stepped to the bar of the court with his attorney.


Joseph A. Washington, 48, told the judge he had made a stupid mistake when he stuffed a .25-caliber handgun into his jacket pocket for his car ride to work on Oct. 29.


The gun was found on Washington during a police traffic stop.


"I'm just trying to get it behind me," he said meekly of the arrest.


Washington pleaded guilty to a felony violation of the Uniform Firearms Act. Following a negotiated deal, Minehart sentenced Washington to three years' probation. He required Washington to sign a document promising to surrender all his firearms within 10 days and to attend any educational classes deemed necessary by his probation officer.


Washington's attorney, Jeremy Gelb, speculated that the case probably would have reached the same outcome in a nonspecialized courtroom.


"He's 48, never arrested. I think this really was an anomaly for Mr. Washington," he said.


Dan Walls, chief of the Defender Association's felony waiver unit, popped in and out of the room yesterday to keep tabs on the proceedings.


"It's only going to work if the rights of my innocent clients are protected," Walls said. "It will work if the emphasis is on rehabilitation whenever it's appropriate."


The jury is still out on whether Gun Court will rehabilitate defendants while protecting city residents from gun toters. (Only those whose most serious crime is a weapons violation will appear in the court. Those who commit other crimes with guns - such as murder and aggravated assault - will go before different judges.)


Professionals on both sides of the courtroom agree that much promise lies in the very effort of culling some gun offenses from the ever-churning system, offering specialized treatment and supervision to those convicted and placing one judge in charge of all.


"This is very smart prosecution," D.A. Lynne Abraham said last week at a press conference to announce the creation of Gun Court
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 1:37:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 1:43:52 PM EDT by clubsoda22]

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
Perfect for a first case. He got what he deserved. Zero tollerance for firearm violations in Philadelphia now. What was he too lazy to get a permit?



That's assuming he even knew there was a system to get such a permit.

I said this in your earlier post:

"If it were for people commiting crimes with guns as opposed to minor offences i would be all for it."

This case has proved my fears. Mr Washington was not holding up a convenience store with a gun, he was not threatening someone. He was carrying a gun without a permit, a non-violent crime that has cost this man his right to protect himself for life. This court is not stopping violent crime in the city.

We can dish out a felony conviction to Mr Washington but we can't do shit about the worst criminal in the city, John Street.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 2:46:37 PM EDT
One of the other cases was a guy entered a dance club and was told "no weapons". So he went outside and put his handgun in his girlfriends purse and in the club they went. The girlfriend went to pay for a drink and the bartender saw the gun called for security and they called the police and the guy was taken in. He was sentenced to a years probation and lost his carry permit.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 3:23:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
One of the other cases was a guy entered a dance club and was told "no weapons". So he went outside and put his handgun in his girlfriends purse and in the club they went. The girlfriend went to pay for a drink and the bartender saw the gun called for security and they called the police and the guy was taken in. He was sentenced to a years probation and lost his carry permit.



I thought "no weapons" signs only entitles the owner of the premises to ask you to leave. What was illegal about what he did? The only thing I can think of is that the girlfriend didn't have a carry permit.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 3:36:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 3:40:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lu380:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
One of the other cases was a guy entered a dance club and was told "no weapons". So he went outside and put his handgun in his girlfriends purse and in the club they went. The girlfriend went to pay for a drink and the bartender saw the gun called for security and they called the police and the guy was taken in. He was sentenced to a years probation and lost his carry permit.



I thought "no weapons" signs only entitles the owner of the premises to ask you to leave. What was illegal about what he did? The only thing I can think of is that the girlfriend didn't have a carry permit.


It wasn't only a sign he was frisked when entering and they told him he couldn't bring it in.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 3:41:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 3:46:44 PM EDT by mikepenn33]

Originally Posted By slidestop:
I'm somewhat torn between both the law and doing what you feel you need to do to protect yourself. Ok should have Mr Washington got a CCW , no doubt he should have. Stop for a minute and think about this. Most of you have CCW's ,now if you were turned down during your application for what ever reason they saw fit to deny you (for the sack of argument your a law biding citizen no records, with no mental deficiency) but they still deny you the CCW. What do you do now to protect yourself ? Still carry regardless or just go about your life hoping not to become a victim. I don't condone breaking the law. I'm just bringing up another side .


In Philly if you can buy a handgun you can get a permit to carry.


The charge was criminal tresspass.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 4:51:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:

Originally Posted By slidestop:
I'm somewhat torn between both the law and doing what you feel you need to do to protect yourself. Ok should have Mr Washington got a CCW , no doubt he should have. Stop for a minute and think about this. Most of you have CCW's ,now if you were turned down during your application for what ever reason they saw fit to deny you (for the sack of argument your a law biding citizen no records, with no mental deficiency) but they still deny you the CCW. What do you do now to protect yourself ? Still carry regardless or just go about your life hoping not to become a victim. I don't condone breaking the law. I'm just bringing up another side .


In Philly if you can buy a handgun you can get a permit to carry.


The charge was criminal tresspass.



If the charge was criminal trespass, why did the case wind up in the new Gun Court? The only gun-related charge I can think of would be the girlfriend getting slammed for not having a permit to carry.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 4:56:18 PM EDT
If it's not murder and there is a firearm involved this is were it goes.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:16:20 AM EDT
The problem is the court is not only punishing criminals, but people guilty of minor infractions. So Mr Washington had a gun on him, so this guy snuck his piece into a club. Did they do anything illegal? Yes. Did they do anything morally wrong? No. These people are not the ones causing gun crime in Philadelphia.

All i'm seeing is tough sentencing for petty bullshit violations of the Firearms Act.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:27:54 AM EDT

As a "law abiding citizen" I have a carry permit. It's the law plain and simple. Was the punishment unduly harsh with the current feelings on guns in Philly?




Perfect for a first case. He got what he deserved. Zero tollerance for firearm violations in Philadelphia now. What was he too lazy to get a permit?




I disagree with both of you on this issue. We as citizens of a free society shouldn't have to get permission (a permit) from the government to do what is our right to do and that is to protect ourselves and our families. He had no criminal background and that should have been enough!
Sure if he had taken the time to get a permit like you and I did then he wouldn't be in such a predicament but what I'm saying is that he shouldn't have had to get a permit (nor should we.)
This guy should have gotten a fine for not having a permit at best. I don't even agree with that but lets punish him for argument's sake.
Not a felony conviction that carries along with it a loss of his constitutional (God Given) rights!
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:29:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:
The problem is the court is not only punishing criminals, but people guilty of minor infractions. So Mr Washington had a gun on him, so this guy snuck his piece into a club. Did they do anything illegal? Yes. Did they do anything morally wrong? No. These people are not the ones causing gun crime in Philadelphia.

All i'm seeing is tough sentencing for petty bullshit violations of the Firearms Act.



I did hear there were cases for firearms theft and several ilegally owned cases
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 7:39:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Princeton:

As a "law abiding citizen" I have a carry permit. It's the law plain and simple. Was the punishment unduly harsh with the current feelings on guns in Philly?




Perfect for a first case. He got what he deserved. Zero tollerance for firearm violations in Philadelphia now. What was he too lazy to get a permit?




I disagree with both of you on this issue. We as citizens of a free society shouldn't have to get permission (a permit) from the government to do what is our right to do and that is to protect ourselves and our families. He had no criminal background and that should have been enough!
Sure if he had taken the time to get a permit like you and I did then he wouldn't be in such a predicament but what I'm saying is that he shouldn't have had to get a permit (nor should we.)
This guy should have gotten a fine for not having a permit at best. I don't even agree with that but lets punish him for argument's sake.
Not a felony conviction that carries along with it a loss of his constitutional (God Given) rights!



My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 8:20:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:


My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.



"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

I'll call your feelings and raise you with inalienable rights
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 8:26:45 AM EDT
Last time I checked, a body search isnt part of getting pulled over for a "traffic stop". So how did Mr. Washington end up loosing his rights to ever own a firearm? Did the police officer ask him if he had any weapons on him? If so, and Washington admitted he did, then the case would have been thrown out in ANY (read that ANY) court of law. He would have lost the firearm for sure, but NEVER would he have been convicted of a violent felony. So, the question begs, what did Washington do that allowed the police to find out he had a firearm on his person?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:16:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RAVYN:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:


My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.



"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

I'll call your feelings and raise you with inalienable rights



I live 2 blocks from where they are kept.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:18:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 9:21:03 AM EDT by mikepenn33]

Originally Posted By lockedandloaded:
Last time I checked, a body search isnt part of getting pulled over for a "traffic stop". So how did Mr. Washington end up loosing his rights to ever own a firearm? Did the police officer ask him if he had any weapons on him? If so, and Washington admitted he did, then the case would have been thrown out in ANY (read that ANY) court of law. He would have lost the firearm for sure, but NEVER would he have been convicted of a violent felony. So, the question begs, what did Washington do that allowed the police to find out he had a firearm on his person?



I don't think there are any misdemeaner firearm violations, are there ?

If he had to Plea who knows how bad it could have been,
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:25:51 AM EDT
It would be one thing if this was a small town. It just happens to be a city with more illegal firearms than people that live there.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:48:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:

Originally Posted By lockedandloaded:
Last time I checked, a body search isnt part of getting pulled over for a "traffic stop". So how did Mr. Washington end up loosing his rights to ever own a firearm? Did the police officer ask him if he had any weapons on him? If so, and Washington admitted he did, then the case would have been thrown out in ANY (read that ANY) court of law. He would have lost the firearm for sure, but NEVER would he have been convicted of a violent felony. So, the question begs, what did Washington do that allowed the police to find out he had a firearm on his person?



I don't think there are any misdemeaner firearm violations, are there ?

If he had to Plea who knows how bad it could have been,



actually most firearms violations are misdemeaners unless used in a crime of violence in PA.
You can find most of this in PA consolidated statutes title 18.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:50:08 AM EDT
Ok, thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:56:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
It would be one thing if this was a small town. It just happens to be a city with more illegal firearms than people that live there.



well,
I'm a constitutionalist at heart. Making redundant gun laws does nothing but harm the citizen. There are probably not many illegal guns in Philly...there are prolly criminals that own guns illegally. If you can prove that licensing will cause these perps to turn them in...I'll concede your point.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:04:55 AM EDT
Well you can't prove anything until you try. When you consider Philadelphia is the worst city for gun crimes they could have done something worse.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:11:45 AM EDT
There is also a ar15.com member here that is can't have firearms in his Philadelphia apartment building, it's in his lease
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:29:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
Well you can't prove anything until you try. When you consider Philadelphia is the worst city for gun crimes they could have done something worse.



Actually, Philly is 6th in cities over 100,000 people per FBI stats



Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:31:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
There is also a ar15.com member here that is can't have firearms in his Philadelphia apartment building, it's in his lease



well,
thats a private propery issue. Nothin ya can do about that unless you want to violate the lease.
On a personal note, I would bever be in Philly without being armed...even if the are only 6th in the nation.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:41:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RAVYN:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
Well you can't prove anything until you try. When you consider Philadelphia is the worst city for gun crimes they could have done something worse.



Actually, Philly is 6th in cities over 100,000 people per FBI stats





Considering Philly has 1.45 million people
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:50:03 AM EDT
I haven't seen numbers since 2001 but the percentage of shootings was 85%African Americans (being shot). So you're pretty safe if you stay in center city
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:50:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.



well, remind me never to trust you with my firearm "rights", since you don't think they exist.

Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:54:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
Perfect for a first case. He got what he deserved. Zero tollerance for firearm violations in Philadelphia now. What was he too lazy to get a permit?



thanks for tossing out those rights buddy

please feel free to give away yours, but keep your fucking hands off of mine.

TXL
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:55:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:

Originally Posted By RAVYN:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:


My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.



"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

I'll call your feelings and raise you with inalienable rights



I live 2 blocks from where they are kept.



but obviously have no clue about their meaning.

txl
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:55:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLewis:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
Perfect for a first case. He got what he deserved. Zero tollerance for firearm violations in Philadelphia now. What was he too lazy to get a permit?



thanks for tossing out those rights buddy

please feel free to give away yours, but keep your fucking hands off of mine.

TXL



Blah,Blah,Blah

There is a right way to do things and a wrong way. He picked the wrong way.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:02:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.



well, remind me never to trust you with my firearm "rights", since you don't think they exist.



I never said that
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:11:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.



well, remind me never to trust you with my firearm "rights", since you don't think they exist.



I never said that



basically, yes you did. I need a liscense to own a gun? fuck me.

Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:13:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 6:20:28 PM EDT by mikepenn33]

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
My feeling is you can't drive without a license, you shouldn't be able to own a gun without a license. The world is a different place since that was written and it would be great if we lived in a country where we didn't need all the checks and balances but if it was that kind of world we wouln't need to carry. Any violation will not be over looked,the feds are watching this and don't worry there are some big cases coming up. At last count there were over 400 cases and counting.



well, remind me never to trust you with my firearm "rights", since you don't think they exist.



I never said that



basically, yes you did. I need a liscense to own a gun? fuck me.




No thanks


You live in Oregon so don't worry about it.
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