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Posted: 9/28/2003 2:24:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2003 3:48:28 PM EDT by Dirk_Pitt]
Overall Team Results




Overall Team Details







Overall Individual Results



After closer review of the scorecards, additional errors were found in both the sniper part and overall team time that caused teams 13 and 18 to swap places 3rd and 4th. Team 13, FDCC owes you a 3rd place certificate.

Sorry for delay in posting...



Dirk
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 3:29:10 PM EDT
Hey Dirk, thanks for putting up the results. It's a dead link on the Overall Individual Results, can you fix it?
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 3:49:18 PM EDT
Sorry about that, fixed.

Dirk
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 12:26:10 PM EDT
FDCC bump...
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 4:29:27 AM EDT
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, errors? I had errors?
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 7:16:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By norman74:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, errors? I had errors?



I was wruu... I was wrogggg... oh hell I can't say it either. Actually it was a combination of the RO and you but 1 mistake out of 90 scorecards ain't bad!

[Note to self] Norman is hereby designated as the offical scorecard adder for FDCC 4th Anniversary[/note to self]

Dirk



Link Posted: 10/5/2003 6:21:49 PM EDT
I'm just glad to see that my team did better than the pros from dover, and that I shot my part better than their guy did his. And I didn't even cook the numbers on that one!
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 11:23:27 PM EDT
Dirk or Norman: The team scores seem to reflect such a complete and dominating victory; Team 8 seems to have outscored the median team score by nearly 300%. This is like finishing a marathon 45 minutes ahead of the pack. Is there anything to be learned from this? Are they all Ironman candidates? Or, more importantly,on this board,did they all have certain equipment. It would say alot if they all"happened" to have been Aimpoint shooters or say bull-pup guys. I'd be interested it what brand slings one uses to do this level of work. Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 4:34:53 AM EDT
I'd just say we put together a good team.

If you'll look closer at the scores, you'll see that we didn't have the best time in either the sniper or pistol COF. What you will also see is that we put together three very solid times, which combined gave us the win. When your shooting a team event, that's what it takes.

The FDCC has some very accomplished shooters; it was an "any given sunday" type of thing, and we just put it all together that particular day.

As for your questions on gear; having the right gear helps. Ed, our sniper was shooting a G&A Precision built SPR. Mark, our pistol shooter, was using one of his Para-Ordnance limited IPSC pistols. I was shooting carbine with an SWR suppressed Colt 634. I used a forward mounted Aimpoint M2 and no sling.

The fun part was watching Mark shoot his iron sighted 20" HBAR for the individual COF and smoke us all. Who says that you can't use a rifle for CQB?
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 4:53:28 AM EDT
I'd agree with everything Rabbit had to say.
It sounds like for one thing they were a team with a decent amount of shooting experience, particularly shooting against the clock. You really have to look at the scores that each individual member got to see why things wound up the way they did. There were some teams that were close to being in the running, but a sniper may have had equipment failure, or a pistol guy didn't walk the shoot house beforehand & didn't have the course memorized. In the case of my team, if my pistol guy hadn't capped so many good guys, we would have been in 13th place instead of 25th. No biggie.

I found that those that chose not to walk the shoot house, and treated it more like a real world scenario (where you wouldn't know the layout of good-guys to bad-guys beforehand) had slower times & more hits on innocents.

Also, since this whole thing is very informal, and everyone gets out of it what they want to, you have different methodologies of shooting it.
Some will take an IPSC type approach, which is essentially "win at all costs" and may run through the shoot house, not REALLY use cover, and take the walk-through to get an advantage.
Others will take the IDPA approach, which is no walk through, using cover as little as possible, and moving quickly.
Then you've got guys that are looking to hone their real-world skills, and will walk the course of fire very deliberately, make more reloads, forgo the walkthrough, and REALLY use cover.
Nothing wrong with any of the approaches, but they are three distinct mindsets at shoots like these.
I shoot IDPA once or twice a month, and some of our best shooters have some of the "worst" times. But if you watch them, they take their time in the scenarios, acting like there really is someone waiting around every corner to shoot them. They REALLY use cover too, not the % requirement that IDPA calls for.

Personally, I didn't mind my score too much. I honestly didn't really look at the scores. I went to this one as much to meet folks as I did to have fun. Meeting Dirk & Hawkeye (great guys btw), burrying the hatchet with Whitehorse, and drinking some beers the night before with whoever we could wrangle up made the trip worthwhile for me. Shooting was just icing on the cake. In all honesty, if shooting had been my only reason for making the trip I would have been sorely disapointed as there was TONS of standing around time. I enjoyed the hell out of the standing around time & meeting a great bunch of guys.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 4:14:52 AM EDT
Norm, you're right about the experience level of our team; we've got a lot of time on the gun and on the clock. Ed, our sniper and top gun, can play the same song with anything that has a trigger. He hasn't lost any IDPA or tactical rifle match that he entered this year. I really wish someone would beat him because I'm tired of trying. Mark, our pistol guy, is a ranked IHMSA shooter, shoots IDPA,IPSC, and is the local master of the turning target (ppc). I don't think Mark has lost a PPC match since we started shooting them. He is our most accurate gun (as evidenced by only head shots in the FDCC shoot house). Me, I'm just a scrub.

I'd have to disagree on the comment that "some of our best shooters have some of the worst times". The best shooters are always going to be faster and more accurate than everybody else no matter how you play the game.

Your right about having a good time. We're still talking about how much fun we had. You could tell the FDCC guys put alot of time and effort into making this a successfull event.

See you next year!
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:09:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
I'd have to disagree on the comment that "some of our best shooters have some of the worst times". The best shooters are always going to be faster and more accurate than everybody else no matter how you play the game.



Let me perhaps clarify that a bit. In my IDPA club, we have several shooters that have been to Gunsite & dozens of other training schools. These folks train like they'd fight. Their shots are dead accurate, they rarely have points down, but their times are slower. Why? Because they take their time, and treat the COF like a real-world scenario, not like a game. They aren't out looking for the best time or the best score, they're looking to enhance their real-world skills. You'll never catch them running through a scenario, walking the stages beforehand (technically against the rules in IDPA anyway) or taking head shots. Doing one or all of these three things will certainly improve their scores & times, but they're looking for something different.
Nothing wrong with either methodology really, it just depends on what you want to get out of it, and really why you own guns & shoot in general. I really only own guns for self defense purposes, and really only train/shoot with self defense in mind.
In a wild-west style duel, I'm sure a PPC guy would win, but on the streets, in the real world, I'll be the one ducking & weaving & shooting from REAL cover. Just different strokes for different folks.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 11:50:28 AM EDT
Rabbit and Norman: Thank you both for such comprehensive answers. I am really gaining some insights on these boards. Philosophically I am close to Norman's view. I am fortunate in being able to shoot, and work out w/ guns daily in complete privacy. I try hard not to let it be "fun", but improvement oriented. Most of my friends are shooters, but I never involve others in CQB type activity, because they don't view it right (for me), and because my approach is heavy on physical fitness and K-9 involvement. Thanks for your good will! Dan
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 1:12:38 PM EDT
Hey, I never said not to make it fun! It has to be fun, otherwise I wouldn't keep doing it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 1:36:42 PM EDT
Dan, glad to be of help. Let me offer another opinion. If you don't think it's "fun", you'll never be really good at it. It's the enjoyment in what you do that gives you the edge. My guys shoot because they love it, and it shows. We made the trip to Florida because of that reason; the FDCC match was going to have a lot of participants that shoot because they enjoy shooting. We've shot against all types of military and law enforcement, and to most of them, their guns are tools and shooting is a job. I'm not worried about beating those guys. I'm worried about the guy that practices, burns thousands of rounds, and maintains/upgrades his equipment because he loves to shoot. We practice this shit constantly, because we love to shoot.

Here's some more advise that you didn't ask for: Shoot everything, be a well rounded shooter. It makes you very comfortable behind the trigger and improves your speed and accuracy. My guys play all the games; IDPA, IPSC, PPC, CQB/Tactical, and even some Sporting Clays. They're just as comfortable shooting a round of trap or a small bore match as they are doing transition drills or shooting a three gun match.

Contrary to popular belief, "tactical" does not mean SLOW.


Link Posted: 10/16/2003 2:03:55 PM EDT
Berdan;
more free advice. Get to a school. I am hoping after the first of the year to get to Gunsite, as well as a couple of other schools. I am guessing the PR under your name means Puerto Rico? I don't see any reason why you couldn't scrape some cash together like me and get to Gunsite, or one of the classes put on by Massad Ayoob. Some links that might help

www.gunsite.com
www.ayoob.com/
www.thunderranchinc.com/

They can be expensive, but everything I've seen & heard says that they are well worth the money.
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