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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/10/2004 3:19:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 7:51:53 PM EST by Nosmik]
Ok, since I still have 21/2-3 years that I have to be stationed in this state, I decided to buy a FAB 10 for my .50 Beowulf and for plinking around with my other uppers. The lowest price would be $299 for a stripped lower.
Before buying it, any recommendations or last minute advice? I am going to install a Bushmaster trigger group kit, an ACE regular stock (the collapsible is for the other AR) and an G27 grip.
This lower will be for hunting and target shooting and my "normal" registered AR will the SHTF type.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 3:34:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Nosmik:
Ok, since I still have 21/2-3 years that I have to be stationed in this state, I decided to buy a FAB 10 for my .50 Beowulf and for plinking around with my other uppers. The lowest price would be $299 for a stripped lower.
Before buying it, any recommendations or last minute advice? I am going to install a Bushmaster trigger group kit, an ACE regular stock (the collapsible is for the other AR) and an G27 grip.
This lower will be for hunting and target shooting and my "normal" registered AR will the the SHTF type.



No last minute advice here. Mine works great - Wilson Chrome Moly 20", everything else is FN. The first 200rds or so through it were problematic. I had alot of FTF and FTE problems. Afterwards, it was mostly fine with various ammo, but not 100% reliable. Then I switced ammo. I have over 2000rds of XM193 through it with absolutely ZERO problems.

Have fun!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 1:42:06 AM EST
I think the suggested retail is $275...just FYI...

I have a FAB-10 and it was out of spec in a couple of places. The pistol grip mount "tab" was too thick, the buffer tube threading wasn't good and either the safety detent hole is off or the selector "tabs" weren't sanded down to the correct spec. Other than that, the finish isn't too great (it looks "plastic-y" and it scratches easily)....

Haven't fired my gun yet but it's sporting a Colt 6724 upper (what a dis-service to that upper but I don't have much choice) so we'll see how it does...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:11:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:53:32 AM EST
Master Chief, how are the 80% builds holding up?

V/R
FC1
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:25:53 PM EST
$299 bucks for a FAB 10? Man you're dealers are really screwing with you. Those things wholesale for about a 100 bucks less than $299. I would tell your dealers to take a hike at that price.

My advice to the service man to call the manufacturer of the FAB 10 directly and get as much advice as possible. The outfit that builds these things are a "Mom & Pop" type business and they really want to make things simple. I'm sure they would set you ASAP.

Patty
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:53:28 PM EST
I've talked to the Fab10 people, and they basically said "All of the dealers near you charge about $300." I don't think I've seen a Fab10 for less than $295 (new, unused) anywhere. Bah! I'd buy one this weekend if it didn't cost me $295. I'd probably buy two. It just really chaps my ass that a REAL stripped AR lower receiver only costs $90.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:00:38 PM EST
The FAB 10 people are so ready to start selling directly to indivduals and shipping through a transfer dealer. Give them a call and let them know. I think if enough people get together - they'll do it.

Patty
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 5:11:44 AM EST
I called them just the other day to try and purchase directly and they would not see to me. They told me that since I have several dealers in my area they will need to refer me over to them.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 6:02:46 AM EST
That really rips as they have told me a hundred times they want to sell direct. I guess they're worried about personal liability.

Good luck to you, you can always move to Oregon where we have a pre emptive law! ;)

Patty
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 8:38:05 AM EST
We should try to organize a small group buy. But I can't organize it because historically, whenever I have tried to organize anything, it's just gotten messed up. I don't want to be responsible for ruining everyone's day.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 6:57:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 7:01:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:29:50 PM EST
I'd be happy to help organize this. Just email me privately and I'll see what I can put together.

Patty
pattymcn@centurytel.net
http://www.fabten.com/Web%20Michael%20pictures%20088.jpg
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:32:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 11:44:44 AM EST by meateater]
nice dog!
i would definetly interested in one!let me know would like one before 50ban.


meat
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 5:42:58 PM EST
Paul,

...and you're manufacturing these lowers in CA??!!?!?!!
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:55:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
If anyone has a FAB-10 lower I'd sure like a picture of the top of the magazine well and any differences between it and a stock AR.



I've got one. If nobody kicks you a picture here soon, I'll snap a high res shot of mine and post it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:58:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 6:00:15 PM EST by spitkiss]
Have you seen these pictures of the Fab-10?

www.quarterbore.com/ar15m16/fab10.htm
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:06:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By TKoProductions:
Paul,

...and you're manufacturing these lowers in CA??!!?!?!!



Military Assault Weapons Permit
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 9:45:43 AM EST
Hi,new here (2nd post) and unfortunately i'm one of the ones without a ca registered pre AWB lower. I'm almost sure about getting a fab-10 and hope to find one at the cow palace show this weekend. My question is to other fab-10 owners:

How awkward is it to constantly open up the rear takedown pin for reloading? Does this outweigh the benefits and fun of shooting an AR? How long does it take to open up, load 10 rounds from a stripper clip, close back up?


thanks
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 11:06:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By spitkiss:
How awkward is it to constantly open up the rear takedown pin for reloading? Does this outweigh the benefits and fun of shooting an AR? How long does it take to open up, load 10 rounds from a stripper clip, close back up?



I average 11 seconds (pull the pin, open the rifle, slam 10 rounds in with a stripper, close it, chamber one). My personal best is 9 seconds.

You get used to it after a while, like anything else.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 3:21:29 PM EST
I really recommend the rear take down pin too. This puppy is awesome. SLV who makes the FAB 10 has the best one around that I've seen (granted no expert either!)

Patty
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:28:45 PM EST
Bought my FAB-10 today and heard an interesting rumor at the cow palace gun show that there's supposedly another rev of the fab-10 about to ship but that this version doesnt have the hole drilled for the stripper clip block and cartridges will only be loaded into the mag one by one by hand? Anyone know if there's any truth to this?

Link Posted: 9/26/2004 5:22:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 5:32:34 AM EST by Paul]
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 5:33:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 9:26:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 12:45:11 PM EST by Mike_Mills]
My questions regarding the FAB-10:

Is it possible to remove the fixed magazine from a FAB-10?

If yes, what then has to be done to convert the lower to accept detachable magazines? Clearly a magazine release mechanism is needed but is a bolt lock also needed?

Perhaps someone can discuss what's involved in this reconfiguration.

Does anyone sell complete rifles in 50 BMG using FAB-10's or other lowers like it?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:37:41 AM EST

Does anyone sell complete rifles in 50 BMG using FAB-10's or other owers like this?


Check fcsa.org in the vendor section.
A lot of times they use the DPMS single shot lower cause some people are having problems using the FAB 10. They seem to have problems with the mag lips.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 12:44:45 PM EST
I went there and reviewed about 20 web sites. I saw only one that sold complete rifles using an FAB-10 lower.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 4:18:13 PM EST
The only question I got is this. If I buy the Ferret50 or the ALS system using a regular lower, do I have to cover the magazine well (as a precaution using some sort of lid) or will the upper cover the well.
I was talking about this conversion at work and some of the guys asked me about this and now I am a bit confused. All the .50 BMG I've seen are being used with a single shot lower.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:38:21 AM EST
The rumor is true, I found out from the factory that they are getting ready to ship this product now without the hole drilled in it for the stripper clip. I asked if they changed it due to legal reasons but he said no that they are only improving the product. So with the new product you will have to load the rounds one at a time.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:28:25 AM EST
That's an improvement?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:18:47 AM EST
I'm glad now that i bought one of the older ones then. Now just have to wait 7 more days before i can pick it up.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:21:14 AM EST
Why would they want to make it harder to load, its already legal and im not aware of legislation that would make it illegal. I new to the market(and this forum) and was already looking to get one very soon, to my understanding they are basicly mil-spec components, and will accept any other mil-spec parts, ie uppers that would otherwise work
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:55:14 AM EST
If i remember what i heard correctly, the hole may have had something to do with the feeding problems that certain upppers were having.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:12:35 AM EST
When I talked to the factory they would not say why they got rid of it but I do know a shop around here that still has the old ones. Think I will go down today and get one just so I don't have to load one at a time. I also asked if they made any other improvments to the product and they replied as no.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:58:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By spitkiss:
If i remember what i heard correctly, the hole may have had something to do with the feeding problems that certain upppers were having.



The hole has nothing to do with the feeding problems.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:08:25 AM EST
my question is is it still LEGAL to have the fab if I took out the fixed mag and opened up the mag well so I could fit in a 20rd size mag that fits only 8 rds of .243wssm or .25wssm.....of course the mag will be rivited back and still using the hex screw......it'll look like a real AR then with the longer looking mag-but only fits 8 of the wssm rounds?????
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:36:11 AM EST
It would be illegal to alter the magazine well to accomodate a 20 round mag. even for looks only. It would be fine to figure out a way to attach a mag to the lower without modifying the well and believe me we're working on that. Best case scenero is to load and close the rifle and then snap the magazine onto the well housing so you have the look of a typical AR 15.

Patty McNary
www.fabten.com
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:54:23 AM EST
Opening up the magwell would not be illegal in itself as long as you permanently attached a fixed magazine of 10 rounds or less capacity. A fixed magazine of more than 10 rounds is considered an "assault weapon", just the same as a detachable magazine.

As long as that magazine could ONLY accept 10 rounds or less of your WSM/WSSM ammunition and NOT 20 rounds of .223 you would be ok. I don't really follow the WSM/WSSM cartridges but I don't think they require any modifications to the magazine which would halt you from putting 20 rounds of .223 in it. And because it would be a fixed magazine of more than 10 round capacity, it would be an "assault weapon" and illegal.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:21:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Opening up the magwell would not be illegal in itself as long as you permanently attached a fixed magazine of 10 rounds or less capacity. A fixed magazine of more than 10 rounds is considered an "assault weapon", just the same as a detachable magazine.


This is very incorrect, and will be illegal. Opening the magwell makes a FAB an AR. AR's are banned by name.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:22:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 5:37:37 PM EST by wyv3rn]

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Opening up the magwell would not be illegal in itself as long as you permanently attached a fixed magazine of 10 rounds or less capacity. A fixed magazine of more than 10 rounds is considered an "assault weapon", just the same as a detachable magazine.


This is very incorrect, and will be illegal. Opening the magwell makes a FAB an AR. AR's are banned by name.



No it doesn't. It's a FAB-10.

There are two main parts to the California assault weapons laws. The first is AW's banned by name. The second is a list of bans by features.

Under the ban by name there are many firearms listed, including the "AR15 series". In actuality this means the receivers of all these firearms are listed. It is not illegal to have an AK barrel and buttstock nor is it illegal to own an AR upper. The ban by name law law states you cannot convert an "assault weapon" to a non-assault weapon. Once an AW, always an AW.

The FAB-10 as it stands is NOT an AR because it did not start as an AR receiver. It is not named as an AR receiver and the lower receiver has never been completed to an AR receiver.

The second part of the assault weapons law is the ban by feature. The first part of the law states that an assault weapon is:

A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of a certain number of "features" it is an assault weapon. So for any of the stuff about flash hiders, folding stocks, pistol grips and yadda yadda to mean anything the firearm must first be:

A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle with the CAPACITY to ACCEPT a detachable magazine.

A detachable magazine is defined as follows:

Any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

The prerequisite for an assault weapon would be the CAPACITY to ACCEPT an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action, nor use of a tool being required.

ACCEPTING an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily requires a few things:
1. The ability to INSERT the ammunition feeding device the appropritate distance into the firearm. Too far in or not far enough and it doesn't work.
2. The ability to RETAIN the ammunition feeding device in such a way that the firearm can utilize that ammunition feeding device.

If you were to open up the magazine well, it still does not ACCEPT a "detachable magazine".

Even further.. if you pin and weld this magazine in place, it's going to require a whole lot more than A TOOL to be UNREADILY removed.

Compare the two finished products side by side and what do you have? Two lower receivers that must be loaded from the top by breaking open the firearm. You are going to require some major metal-cutting tools to get ANYWHERE close to being able to INSERT a detachable magazine and then you're back to needing some means of retaining it.

When you get down to what is blocking the magazine well it is semantics. A peice of steel, forged or machined into the part. Or a peice of aluminum or steel metal, pinned and welded in place. It's SEALED UP METAL. What if you were to cut the bottom of your FAB-10 out and then replace it with a peice of steel welded in place? Does it accept a detachable magazine? No.

As for the ban by name is it an "AR15 series"? Even though the FAB-10 has some similiarities in order for a lower receiver to be included in the "AR15 series" definition it must be THE SAME with only "minor differences" which include things like buttstocks, barrels, sights, etc.

Essentially, the AR15 receivers' CAPABILITIES are what define it, not what buttstock, sights, etc you slap on it. AR15 receivers have a 40-year history of being able to INSERT and RETAIN a "detachable magazine" and this is a defining characteristic of the AR15. A TRUE "AR15 series" rifle must be able to accept detachable magazines. Not being able to accept a detachable magazine is MORE than a "minor difference".

We must not also forget that a rifle with a fixed magazine of more than 10 rounds is also an assault weapon. So however your magazine is "fixed" inside the receiver it cannot hold more than 10 rounds. Don't think you can go slapping an 11+ rounder in there or you're a felon, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Now am I saying that you are completely safe from the DOJ should they decide to be overzelous? Are you immune from being charged with a crime and brought to trial? No.

But is opening up the magwell of the FAB-10 and fixing either a device or peice of metal in place in such a way as to make it accept 10 rounds or less of ammunition illegal to the letter of the law? No.

Is it likely the DA would win such a case should they choose to persue it? No.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:43:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 5:59:27 PM EST by wyv3rn]
Just to reiterate my post previous to this recent one... If your 10 (or less) round WSM/WSSM/6.8SPC/6.5Grendel/.499/.50BW/etc. magazines that you would be pinning/welding in place can accept MORE than 10 rounds of .223 ammunition you are in trouble. If they don't work with any other types of ammunition you would be ok.

Might want to take a look at the fixed magazine FAL thread as well. Pretty easy to return to an "assault weapon" with simple tools. Much more difficult to unpin and cut through welds. They'll be going after the fixed magazine FAL guys LONG before they come after FAB-10 guys who have opened up their magwells and pinned/welded a magazine in place for looks/different caliber/whatever. In the case of the fixed-magazine FAL the receiver is even the same as the banned by name FAL, only the magazine catch is modified. If the DOJ were feeling lucky the fixed 10-round FAL would probably be their safest bet for a conviction in court and even that probably doesn't have a good chance.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:54:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 8:56:11 PM EST by m98codered]
I really do think that it'll be legal too......since it'll only hold 8rds of .25 or 243wssm rounds and I think the follower for the wssm rounds is a bit different in design so I don't think I'll even hold the smaller .223 cases--since the wssm rounds are only going to be in single stack design not zig-zag design.....PLUS the mag is Rivited to the lower reciever
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:01:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 9:02:16 PM EST by pattymcn]
I think it would be illegal too and I think it would fall under the 81% or better rule. My suggestion would be to send your theory in writting to the DOJ and see what they say.

One thing I do know is that IF you alter the magazine well the warranty of the FAB 10 at the very least is null.

Best of luck to you. You can always move up here to Oregon - I used to complain about being limited to a 5 round magazine to shoot my buck. I can pop a 30 rounder in to waste a coyote though. Some how the powers to be think you have to be more "sporty" with deer than dogs!

Patty
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:34:30 PM EST
as much as id love to cut open the magwell on my fabten id rather not leave my weapon up to the varied interpretations of the CA DOJ.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:54:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 10:55:51 PM EST by M4-guy]
OK, how about this:

Remove the 10-round mag from a FAB10. Cut a small hole in the floor of the magwell to accomidate a .22 Ciener mag. The sheet metal housing on Ciener mag would have to be modified. Install the Ciener mag so it's fixed to the lower, as the 10-rd .223 mag was.

The lower still wouldn't be able to accept any detachable mags, and you could use a 30-rd Ciener mag (possessed before 2001) since the rifle is no longer a centerfire. You'd still have to lift the upper to load, but only 1/3 as often as for .223.

What do you think, legal?
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:26:46 AM EST
I am pretty sure that milling out the magwell on the fab10 makes it an AR. The ban goes by series, not name. There are MANY producers of AR receivers, and almost none go by "AR-15", because it is a protected name. Altering it to accept all parst of an AR15, at least I would believe so, would make it an AR-15 receiver. It's just like the 80% recievers. You can't change those into an AR-15 receiver with an attached magazine, it would be the same thing with a fab10.

And as you said, one an AW always an AW. IMMEDIATELY after you mill it out, and BEFORE you premanently attach the mag, there is a short moment where the rifle CAN accept detachable magazines. It turns into an AW and is ALWAYS an AW.



What if they made a fixed mag reciever with a TINY drilled hole for the mag release. You would NEED some sort of punch to release the mag then, so all you do is tape a push pin on your finger when you are shooting.

I wonder if that would work.....
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 5:20:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 5:24:52 AM EST by wyv3rn]
Ok guys. Read the text of the law. In order for the receiver to be an AR15 receiver it must be the same with only "minor differences" . "Minor differences" are declared to be things such as buttstocks, sights, grips, etc.

Anyone who thinks opening up the magwell makes it an AR obviously has never handled a REAL AR before. There is no provision for a magazine catch and just opening up the magwell is still far from ACCEPTING a detachable magazine. It does NOT make it an AR receiver, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Submitting it to the DOJ in writing is doing nothing more than asking for an OPINION. And anyone who writes the CA DOJ knows that no matter what you write them about you get the standard response back which is:

It "might" be illegal, it's up to your local DA to decide if they want to procecute. Well guess what guys? That's the SAME THING THE FAB-10 "letter of approval" says.

The DOJ does not decide what is legal and what is not, the legislature and the text of the law does that. The DOJ's job is to interpret the law and attempt to procecute people in accordance with the law. Then it is up to the judge and jury as to if the TEXT or INTENT of the law is being violated.

The 81% law? Nope. The FAB-10 is a completed receiver already and has infact been sold to you as such. An 80% lower doesn't have any of the holes drilled, etc. so the FAB-10 is already far beyond 80%.

If you really want an unbiased opinion. Pay the $50-300 and consult a lawyer for 1-2 hours. And if you want to write an official and ask for their opinion it would probably be more productive to ask your local DA, not the DOJ.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 5:30:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By sirbordsalot311:
as much as id love to cut open the magwell on my fabten id rather not leave my weapon up to the varied interpretations of the CA DOJ.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is your best reason for NOT doing it. If you are fearful of an overzealous (at times) DOJ or afraid of your local DA. Just because something is NOT ILLEGAL doesn't mean they disrupt your whole life for months and make you prove your innocence.

Their actual chances of getting a conviction would be next to nil.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 6:53:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 6:54:14 AM EST by Lon_Moer]
None of this is a new idea. Many people here have wanted to try those ideas before, and there have been inquiries to the CA-DOJ. This thread; 80% and Kalifornis inmates used to have a DOJ letter in the post that clearly descibed what was legal. Unfortunatly, I only kept the thread and not the document, because the letter, apparently, isn't being "hosted" any more.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:45:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 1:53:23 PM EST by wyv3rn]

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
None of this is a new idea. Many people here have wanted to try those ideas before, and there have been inquiries to the CA-DOJ. This thread; 80% and Kalifornis inmates used to have a DOJ letter in the post that clearly descibed what was legal. Unfortunatly, I only kept the thread and not the document, because the letter, apparently, isn't being "hosted" any more.



I have read that thread and I have read that letter. The subject matter was similar but it was NOT what we are describing here. They are trying to get detachable magazine capability by subverting the name part of the ban by printing 22LR on the receiver. Saying it's a 22LR receiver and then slapping a .223/5.56mm upper on it. The receiver IS the same as the "AR15 series" banned receiver AND it is still banned by the features list (detachable mag + pistol grip/fs/bayo lug/etc.). And then there are a few side sprout ideas, none of which are what we are talking about here with the FAB-10.

I invite anyone who owns an AR15 to take out their magazine catch (which won't even fit in a FAB-10) and let me know how well things go. What we are talking about will not make an AR15 series receiver by the named assault weapons list. Nor does it violate the ban-by-features text. There is no provision for a magazine catch. Detachable magazines are damn near worthless to an AR15 without a magazine catch.

Would I recommend people doing this? No, probably not as I am not willing to do it myself. But what was asked was is it legal.

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