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Posted: 8/19/2004 11:32:34 AM EST
Hope these two responses aren't indicative of a trend...
________________________

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are the basic fabric by which we as law abiding US Citizens Live. The 2nd Amendment is only one element of our system of freedoms.
I personally do not believe that restricting a firearm because of the way it looks is acceptable. POPGUNS Inc and I personally will continue to fight for our rights to firearms ownership and use.

Intellectually(sp) I understand that hundreds of thousands of the SKS/ AK style firearms are owned by law abiding citizens and will never see a crime scene. However, for a number of years I've had a personal internal moral conflict over the sales of this type of firearm. As retailers we are limited by civil liberty laws as to who we can refuse sales of products to.

Therefore for this reason effective 08-20-2004 POPGUNS will not longer stock SKS or AK style firearms. I'm sure that this decision may upset some of our customers, however I hope they will support our right to sale or not sell what we chose.

Thank You

Mike Hilton President POPGUNS Inc.

___________________

By Mary Beth Schneider
mary.beth.schneider@indystar.com
August 19, 2004

Don Davis has been telling TV audiences for years how he loves to sell guns -- but even he thinks the semiautomatic rifle used to kill an Indianapolis officer Wednesday and wound four others should be outlawed.

"They're terrible," said Davis, owner of Don's Guns, 3807 Lafayette Road.

And, he added, "I sell them like crazy."

In 1993, Davis said he would stop selling the weapons, which have military features allowing rapid, accurate firing. He burned 44 AK-47s in a pit to make his point.

Four years later, he began selling them again. He said politicians bowed to pressure from groups like the National Rifle Association to keep the weapons legal.

He said there was just too much demand for the AK-47, which sells for about $300 and the cheaper $150 knockoff, the SKS -- both of which are imported.

Police say an SKS was used to kill Patrolman Timothy "Jake" Laird early Wednesday.

"They're all legal, and we sell them every day to 18-year-olds," Davis said. "Isn't that terrible?"

Davis said they aren't used for hunting.

But they are used in crimes -- including the slayings of law-enforcement officers.

A study by the Violence Policy Center, a national nonprofit educational foundation based in Washington, found 41 officers, including three in Indiana, were killed in the line of duty from 1998 through 2001 with assault-style weapons such as the AK-47 and SKS.

Wendy Osborne, an FBI special agent for the Indianapolis office, said such rifles were used to kill 10 of the 52 officers slain nationwide in 2003 and five of the 32 officers slain this year as of July 31.

Statistics on how often the semiautomatic rifles are used in crimes couldn't be obtained from the FBI or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

But Mike Vergon, acting resident agent in charge of the Indianapolis ATF field office, said they are frequently used in crimes.

The assault-style weapons are banned in Gary and East Chicago. State Rep. Vernon Smith, D-Gary, said he sponsored the ordinance in the 1980s that outlawed them in Gary and has been trying for 12 years to persuade the Indiana General Assembly to follow that lead.

He doubts this latest shooting alone will change minds.

"The NRA and the gun proponents are a strong force," he said. "Unfortunately, it will take these tragic events, and maybe somebody shooting in the Statehouse, to make people understand we don't need to make these types of weapons available."

State Sen. Bob Meeks, R-LaGrange, served 25 years as an Indiana State Police trooper, retiring in 1981.

In his first reaction to the news of the shootings, he said he thought the AK-47 already was illegal in Indiana.

"It ought to be illegal," he said, referring to any assault-style weapon that can pierce an officer's bullet-proof vest. "I don't see any good reason to have one of them."

But Meeks said lawmakers shouldn't overreact by rushing laws onto the books.

He's a gun advocate who owns an M-1 rifle. Last session, he co-sponsored a bill, passed overwhelmingly and signed into law by Gov. Joe Kernan, to protect gun owners from being sued if their weapons are stolen and used in a crime.

Davis, for one, doesn't think Laird's killing will spur lawmakers to ban the weapons.

"Nah," he said. "They'll talk about it a couple of days. The next day they'll be talking about something else."

Call Star reporter Mary Beth Schneider at (317) 444-2772.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 1:21:38 PM EST

"It ought to be illegal," he said, referring to any assault-style weapon that can pierce an officer's bullet-proof vest. "I don't see any good reason to have one of them."


Heck, how is a 7.62X39 bullet any different than grandpappy's old hunting .30-06? This crap just burns me up.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 1:42:53 PM EST
Damn it I hate this CRAP! I will NEVER go in to POP Guns again, and I never went to Don's anyway. Please tell everyone that you know to BOYCOTT these establishments.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 1:50:15 PM EST
Hopefully these two will soon look back on this decision in the same light as the guy who changed coke's formula.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:32:48 PM EST
Mike Hilton making a "Moral" decision? WTF??? He still sells other rifles that are just as deadly as a SKS or AK. Talk about trying to appease the public. I hope he goes under, I always thought that his prices sucked ass anyway. I guess I'll have to shop at Bradis, Albros, or Dave's Guns in Whiteland. Why can't dealers realize that this shit only hurts their business. I won't even mention Elmore's, as he is one helluva rip-off artist!
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 4:19:40 PM EST
Well, this is about as worthy of a fire mission as I've ever seen. Two gun store owners against guns is about as sad a state of play as you can get.

I'm starting off by calling Mike Hilton and returning all of my range credit tokens chopped in half.

Anyone with me?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:08:03 PM EST
Hmm...

From the popguns.com bulletin board:


Well for the 1st time the local news misquoted me!

During the 1/2 hour interview I stated that legally we can no refuse to sell a firearm just because we do not like the looks of them ( AKA Gang banger types). Therefore after much internal moral struggle I decided not to stock the SKS and Ak47 type rifles. We will continue to sell all other high quality rifles as they at not the chose of the street punks. We will continue to order this type for our regular customer base on a one on one basis. In this way we are not left open to civil suit because some puke takes offense to our refusal to sell them one of the SKS or AK type rifles.. Further in the interview I stated that we 100% back the right of any person to buy,sell, own. possess this type as well as any other firearm. We do not believe that a firearm should be banned because of it's configuration. POPGUNS Inc and I will continue to fight for everyones right to own which ever firearm they chose. Just as it is our right to decide what is in inventory in our store. I had hoped that our regular custsomers would have asked 1st before assuming that the statements made by channel 13 was accurate. To those of you who emailed to voice your opinion before having the facts, that is your right, however do not expect a personal answer. If you wish to come in or call in person I will be happy to discuss this with you now that you have the facts.

I hope yo can understand our reasoning for now longer keeping the SKS and AK "Instock"!?

Mike Hilton President POPGUNS Inc.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:31:49 PM EST
Ok....sounds like we need to bust the news agencies balls over this one! I personally apologize to Mike for my remarks about what I read, but I still won't shop there.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:58:58 PM EST
And my question is, "where does it stop?"
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:47:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By burbanite:
And my question is, "where does it stop?"



Yeah that looks like a serious backpedal. But what happens after the next shooting, and the next?

"No, we don't stock any guns. But we'll order you one, if you're a regular customer."
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 7:53:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Riotgun:
Hmm...

From the popguns.com bulletin board:


Well for the 1st time the local news misquoted me!

During the 1/2 hour interview I stated that legally we can no refuse to sell a firearm just because we do not like the looks of them ( AKA Gang banger types). Therefore after much internal moral struggle I decided not to stock the SKS and Ak47 type rifles. We will continue to sell all other high quality rifles as they at not the chose of the street punks. We will continue to order this type for our regular customer base on a one on one basis. In this way we are not left open to civil suit because some puke takes offense to our refusal to sell them one of the SKS or AK type rifles.. Further in the interview I stated that we 100% back the right of any person to buy,sell, own. possess this type as well as any other firearm. We do not believe that a firearm should be banned because of it's configuration. POPGUNS Inc and I will continue to fight for everyones right to own which ever firearm they chose. Just as it is our right to decide what is in inventory in our store. I had hoped that our regular custsomers would have asked 1st before assuming that the statements made by channel 13 was accurate. To those of you who emailed to voice your opinion before having the facts, that is your right, however do not expect a personal answer. If you wish to come in or call in person I will be happy to discuss this with you now that you have the facts.

I hope yo can understand our reasoning for now longer keeping the SKS and AK "Instock"!?

Mike Hilton President POPGUNS Inc.




Still bullshit ! He caved and now he is trying to cover his ass.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:13:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 6:28:16 AM EST by Shooter521]
I'm pissed beyond words; unfortunately I must hold my tongue since I work for "the competition". I obviously don't buy guns from Pops, but I do shoot at their range on a regular basis... eh, make that used to shoot on their range...

PS - it's interesting to note that the original statement posted by Popguns on their bulletin board (which I included above), is now gone from there, as are a couple of the original not-very-nice replies. In its place is Mike's statement that he had been "misquoted by the news station" and that folks like us were replying "without having all the facts". Riiiight.

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:51:26 AM EST
My money is gone.!!!!
This is pure political CYA.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:10:10 AM EST


Police say an SKS was used to kill Patrolman Timothy "Jake" Laird early Wednesday.

"They're all legal, and we sell them every day to 18-year-olds," Davis said. "Isn't that terrible?"

Davis said they aren't used for hunting.


What does he know? Neighbor kid of a friend of mine in WI got his first deer with one last winter.


State Sen. Bob Meeks, R-LaGrange, served 25 years as an Indiana State Police trooper, retiring in 1981.

In his first reaction to the news of the shootings, he said he thought the AK-47 already was illegal in Indiana.

"It ought to be illegal," he said, referring to any assault-style weapon that can pierce an officer's bullet-proof vest. "I don't see any good reason to have one of them."

But Meeks said lawmakers shouldn't overreact by rushing laws onto the books.

He's a gun advocate who owns an M-1 rifle.


Uh, didn't he just say that there's no reason to own the very rifle he owns?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:40:40 PM EST
You know what cracks me up the most, or should I say pisses me off? I went into POPGUNS today on a recon mission, and you know what I saw!!! CHEAP LORCIN chrome handguns for sale. WTF Mike? you won't sell an SKS or a AK to a "Gangbanger" because of a MORAL CONFLICT?, but you will sell him a cheap handgun? I don't see the logic, as the cheap ass handgun is 90% more likely to be used in a crime. I don't get it guys, I just don't get it.

BTW, Mike was much more quiet than usual while I was there on my lunch break. Usually you can hear him talk over EVERYONE in the building.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:07:12 PM EST

Fuck Mike Hilton. He's the goddamn ripoff artist, not Russ Elmore. Russ is a good man. Period.

Oh, and fuck that lithping Frankenstein-looking motherfucker who works there, too. Cheesedicks.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:19:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 3:20:42 PM EST by CAR-15]
Maybe I just have the wrong impression of Russ. Based on your opinion QS, I will give him another try. The last time I was in his new shop, I couldn't look at anything because there were people sitting around everywhere. Is there a good time to go as to miss the crowd?

BTW QS, did you have a bad experience with POP Guns, or are you just pissed over this current issue?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:16:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAR-15:
Maybe I just have the wrong impression of Russ. Based on your opinion QS, I will give him another try. The last time I was in his new shop, I couldn't look at anything because there were people sitting around everywhere. Is there a good time to go as to miss the crowd?

BTW QS, did you have a bad experience with POP Guns, or are you just pissed over this current issue?



He tried to fuck me on a trade a few years ago, and was totally unapologetic about it. He is TOO expensive on guns, and doesn't deal worth a fuck...so this was just icing on the cake.

You tell me when you want to go down there, and I'll meet you down there. Russ is a good dude....there are often guys hanging around in there because it's a fun place to be. Give him a chance.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:50:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 5:39:56 AM EST by Riotgun]
Well, here's how I feel about Popguns.

Yes, their prices are a little high. But I don't mind spending a little more in a shop that I like. They usually have a pretty good selection, and they never have a problem letting me fingerfuck their guns. I get waited on pretty quickly, and they don't mind chatting about guns while I'm shopping. They usually deal with me on guns, taking a little off when I try to haggle. They are close to where I used to live, and the convenience was worth a little bit of a premium.

In the four years I've been here, I've spent in excess of $4000 there. Family and friends who I've taken and referred there have spent over $1000 there.

Amount I'm spending there after these antics:

[crickets] Chirp, chirp. [/crickets]

Now, here's how I feel about Don's:

If he was selling Armalites for a nickel a piece and including all the free beer you could drink, I still wouldn't step foot in his shop.

OK, maybe for that I would, but I wouldn't admit to it.

(spelling edit)
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:15:23 PM EST
I'm watching the progress of this thread with interest. I always liked to stop in a Pop's guns when I was in Indy. They have a pretty nice place and were always friendly. The prices are on the high side, but they did have some nice guns. I truly hope the president isn't caving in to the media.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:41:45 PM EST
QS, I will give Russ another chance, I'm just still kinda jaded about the Aimpoint flip up caps that he was selling as extras to the Aimpoint Comp itself. That kinda sucked.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 6:19:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAR-15:
QS, I will give Russ another chance, I'm just still kinda jaded about the Aimpoint flip up caps that he was selling as extras to the Aimpoint Comp itself. That kinda sucked.



I'd be very willing to bet that either a) they were extra caps or b) it was a used scope that didn't come in with caps or c) it was a model that didn't come with them. IIRC, the earlier Comp models didn't come with flipups. Anyhow, I personally guarantee you that he wouldn't do something like that for any shady reason.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:02:19 AM EST
Ok QS, I will take your word for it. I will be looking for a new handgun soon, and I will give him a chance. So if you talk to him, tell him to be X-tra nice!!! LOL!
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 3:43:28 PM EST
Personally, I have been buying guns from Albro's on South Emerson for many years. Paul Z supports a lot of the hunting organizations and also has some the best, if not the best prices in town. Give him a try. You want be disappointed.
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