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Posted: 6/12/2009 11:29:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 9:58:25 PM EST by chad9mm]
OK i don't understand putting on your ad that "we train rain or shine"then two days before the course calling all your students and saying "we might have to cancel the course due to rain,but we can get you into another class"..What they don't know is that people aren't willing to drive 3hrs for a maybe class!! I was prepared to shoot in the rain as advertised.Also i had already taken a $300 day off to be able to get up and get an early start the morning before to get everything ready..In addtion i've already purchased $300 worth of stuff for the class.(tactical light for glock,tactical flash light,Rain gear,misc)

I know as an instructor weather is something you can't control,but if you advertise rain or shine shooting you should stick to it..Anytime i have to cancel a class due to weather i give it to the students for free if they are willing to come back.

I just cant bring myself to head out to Ottawa,Ks for a class that may or may not happen..I have already lost $600 on this deal and have decided to cut my losses.


Just my thoughts


Link Posted: 6/12/2009 11:36:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:24:02 PM EST
the range is in a low area, probably enough water to restrict access to the range. Rain or shine only goes so far, at some point you begin to loose your students attention, and slipping and mud can get quite dangerous.

PTK
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:34:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By PolyTechKID:
the range is in a low area, probably enough water to restrict access to the range. Rain or shine only goes so far, at some point you begin to loose your students attention, and slipping and mud can get quite dangerous.

PTK


Believe us, we would know.

So, did they cancel, or did they just say if by chance shit get bad enough, we may need to forgo the class for safety sake?

There is a difference between not wanting to get wet and people slipping and sliding with loaded firearms.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:53:11 PM EST
They said it was very possible it would get cancelled..most of the tac ranges i've seen were pea graveled so i assumed it was..rain or shine to me means no matter what we shoot.If they have low setting land or grass and dirt range they shouldn't advertise "rain or shine"..I had been planning on this for two months and spent a good amount of money to prepare for it..I also wouldn't expect them to run an unsafe range either,but if you advertise rain or shine your range should be able to with stand the rain..You have to understand that most people won't head out on a three hour trip to something that isn't certain either...I don't live two blocks away its 160 miles from me..
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:08:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 1:09:55 PM EST by PantherArms762]
Originally Posted By chad9mm:
They said it was very possible it would get cancelled..most of the tac ranges i've seen were pea graveled so i assumed it was..rain or shine to me means no matter what we shoot.If they have low setting land or grass and dirt range they shouldn't advertise "rain or shine"..I had been planning on this for two months and spent a good amount of money to prepare for it..I also wouldn't expect them to run an unsafe range either,but if you advertise rain or shine your range should be able to with stand the rain..You have to understand that most people won't head out on a three hour trip to something that isn't certain either...I don't live two blocks away its 160 miles from me..


If it hasn't been canceled by now, it most likely won't be. I'm not even showing rain on our local forecast till late Sunday.

If you want a fancy range, you're not gonna spend $150 for the class. Calm down and go enjoy yourself. You'll be glad you did.

They're great guys and just want everyone to be safe.

See any frowns on these guys?

Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:22:14 PM EST
I had intended on heading to OMB to pick up the rest of my stuff before heading out this morning,but i didn't want to spend anymore money on something that wasn't for sure..I never said these
guys didn't have a good or fun course.I said i was told by them that it could be cancelled due to rain which is not consistent with their advertisement of their course..I assume you have money to burn and don't care if things are cancelled or not.Thats not the case with me...I would like nothing more than to attend but it to late for me..I only plan on things that are for sure.If the advertisement would have stated the course could be cancelled if it were to rain i would have signed up somewhere else..
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:51:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 1:51:52 PM EST by mydogsnameisruger]
I wish my "Gratis" training from Uncle Sam would have had rain delays.

Personally, i don't like wet weather shooting, and I wouldn't have paid to do it exclusivley, BUT, if I did pay for "rain or shine", then I excpect exactly that!, It's not my fault they built in a lowland swamp, or, maybe they should have a backup range, that can deal with such wet conditions.

I'd say the easiest thing for DVC to do, is make it a "weather permitting" event. At least patrons, could have a better idea of what was in store.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:12:37 PM EST
If you want pretty pea gravel ranges I'd just go ahead and save up for the trip to frontsite so you can be razzle-dazzled by the facilities. Its not a "square range", if that's what you're looking for you'll be dissapointed. Now if you're looking for good instruction at stelar prices, you'll find it at dvc, my recomendation is to roll up with whatever gear you have (everyday carry stuff would be the best, since that's what you're likely to use) and an open mind.

PTK
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:13:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 2:15:09 PM EST by scottMO]
I guess it's all in the way you interpret it. To me, Rain or Shine, means I may get wet, but I do not expect nor want them yo be training me in a monsoon either....

It's also Kansas. What if there are tornadoes?. That's not specifically mentioned, so I should expect them to still have the class?

I understand your concerns, but I think Lonnie and DVC always strive to ensure that they provide a positive learning envirnment.

and yes, I'm the fat guy in the above pic...
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:23:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By scottMO:

and yes, I'm the fat guy in the above pic...


You're gonna have to be more specific.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:27:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By PantherArms762:
Originally Posted By scottMO:

and yes, I'm the fat guy in the above pic...


You're gonna have to be more specific.



In the hat...
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:40:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 2:45:11 PM EST by mydogsnameisruger]
If you want pretty pea gravel ranges I'd just go ahead and save up for the trip to frontsite so you can be razzle-dazzled by the facilities

I don't believe he's asking for that. DVC's ad says rain or shine. They then call(which WAS courteous), to say they ay cancel if it rains.
Why advertise rain or shine, if you are going to possibly cancel?
Why not lease a backup range, that is better suited to "rainy days"

There course may cost only $150, but the charges incurred along the way add up quick, I can wholeheartedly see the validation in the OP's point. Who wants to GAMBLE on $600. Like I said, they should change their add to "weather permitting"
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:40:47 PM EST
Once again i didn't say they weren't unsafe or didn't put on a good class..I stated i assumed the course would go on regardless and had banked on the advertisement of rain or shine...It would be the same to the average guy having a denist appointment and the denist saying if its a nice day out i may play golf instead of cleaning your teeth..Point being i wasn't given a for sure answer,and unlike you guys i don't have alot of spare time to burn up driving 160 miles for nothing...I can't run my schedule on a half day notice thats why i booked the class two months in advance..Im sure they do a good job when the weather permits...they need to take the rain or shine out of their advertisement ASAP
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:07:36 PM EST
If you think rain is equal to the danger of a tornado you need to back to school...If one of my classes were cancelled due to weather which they have been before.I give it to the students for free...I don't expect that though..I'll just take a refund and go somewhere else that is more stable and don't have to cancel for weather purposes...
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:47:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By scottMO:
Originally Posted By PantherArms762:
Originally Posted By scottMO:

and yes, I'm the fat guy in the above pic...


You're gonna have to be more specific.



In the hat...


a little more...?
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 5:27:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By chad9mm:
If you think rain is equal to the danger of a tornado you need to back to school...If one of my classes were cancelled due to weather which they have been before.I give it to the students for free...I don't expect that though..I'll just take a refund and go somewhere else that is more stable and don't have to cancel for weather purposes...


Did you even make contact with DVC to discuss the weather with them?

Sounds like you weren't going into it with an open mind anyway, and you'd probably be disappointed. Next time just take the $600 you lost on the $150 class and just call up Dr. Piazza and he can hook you up with a free xd and a pga tour manicured range
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 5:45:31 PM EST
The last time my wife (Lady_MP-5) had to qualify it was during a heavy snowstorm. She asked the range officer "Why don't we reschedule or move to the indoor range?" He commented "Do you think on the street you are going to be able to chose if and when you are going to be in a firefight?"

I always thought he had a GREAT point/
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 5:59:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:08:45 PM EST by chad9mm]
hey polytech


i didnt ask for a perfect range i asked for them to stick to their advertising..If you advertise rain or shine your range should be able to withstand it.. You sure do sound offended...I guess in your profession or lack there of you are an expert on human behavior right? I put this post up for opinions on the content of the ad and what i was being told..Never said the guys sucked or anything..All phone calls to date with Brett have been pleasant and informative..In one of them he expressed frustration with availibilty of brass 9mm..I recently picked up 30k of Blazer brass and had intended on passing 15k on to him at my cost...I personaly can't drive 2-3 hrs to something that isn't going to happen for sure.

.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 6:24:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 6:41:07 PM EST by PolyTechKID]
So is that a personal threat? You gonna come down and tune me up face to face or somethihng? Just because you didn't get your "DVC sucks cause they said rain or shine on the web and now they may cancel" validation from me?!?!
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:04:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:09:53 PM EST by chad9mm]
I think you have to much time on your hands..Do you work at all? I posted for opinion not some negitive comments..You must be some kind of authority figure huh? The DVC guy Brett that i have dealt with is kinda cool,i seriosly doubt you guys are buddies...Go back to pickin on the freshman dude.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:07:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By chad9mm:

If you would like to meet up in person to discuss this in more detail i would be glad to meet you.I live near Kearney ,mo and can be most anywhere in Kc within 30min.


DON't DO IT!!! IT'S A TRAP!!!
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:11:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:13:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 7:17:13 PM EST by spectre556]
There's nothing I can think of that would be a better learning environment than slipping and sliding around in the mud with a dozen armed students Bottom line the instructors have to make the call as to what constitutes a safe environment to run the class. They have ran classes in the rain and snow, when it's deemed safe to do so I would assume. If for whatever reason they had doubts about the conditions for this class, they gave you a call with as much notice as possible. The rain or shine notification, to a sensible person reads "within the bounds of personal safety".

As for the no video taping... When I ran through the course we had several leo/mil guys who did not want there faces on camera. A good way to accomplish this is making sure only DVC staff were snapping pics.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:24:07 PM EST


Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:24:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:10:51 PM EST by chad9mm]
For the last time THEIR ADD SAID RAIN OR SHINE!!! So people assume its in an area were you can shoot in the rain..Do any of you guys understand english that are responding here? if i had know it was a grass and dirt range i would not have signed up for this time of the year.. The only thing your told iis what to bring,where it is,how much it costs,and that they shoot rain or shine..Go to the web page and read it yourself
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:33:24 PM EST
I agree about the post it turned shitty very quick
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:55:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:58:13 PM EST by spectre556]

Originally Posted By chad9mm:
For the last time THEIR ADD SAID RAIN OR SHINE!!! So people assume its in an area were you can shoot in the fucking rain..Do any of you guys understand english that are responding here? if i had know it was a grass and dirt range i would not have signed up for this time of the year.. The only thing your told iis what to bring,where it is,how much it costs,and that they shoot rain or shine..Go to the web page and read it yourself

Here is what my confirmation email looked like:

Any questions let me know other wise we will see you on Saturday.


'Hope' is Not a Course of Action, TRAIN

Brett Manifold
DVC Training Specialists
bamanifold@dvctraining.com
dvctraining.com
913-980-1500


Bottom line, they have held the course before in rain and or sleet. They had some concern for whatever reason this time and made the call to POSSIBLY postpone the course. Would you rather be put into an unsafe training environment? With a dozen strangers?

If you look at their schedule they also teach a CCW course at least once a month, in addition to the carbine course that was held not long ago. It's very possible that with the rains and all that traffic that it was a concern?

Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:09:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:11:43 PM EST by chad9mm]
You cant read huh? if it were a hard surface or gravel there would be no safety issue..This is what someone would assume if they advertise rain or shine..Do you understand now? I never said anything about wanting any specific enviroment at all..i stated it was supposed to be rain or shine and if advertised that way the range they choose to use should be able to handle it safely if it rains or shines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..It would be very simple to take some of that profit and buy some gravel if they choose to continue advertising rain or shine..Should be plenty of profit left after paying taxes on that income...I dont want to drive 2.5 hours and have to turn around and come home if it rains..
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:18:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By chad9mm:
For the last time THEIR ADD SAID RAIN OR SHINE!!! So people assume its in an area were you can shoot in the fucking rain..Do any of you guys understand english that are responding here? if i had know it was a grass and dirt range i would not have signed up for this time of the year.. The only thing your told iis what to bring,where it is,how much it costs,and that they shoot rain or shine..Go to the web page and read it yourself


Look dude, you're gonna feel the way you're gonna feel no matter what anyone says. From my side of the thread it appears you read the line in your email that said they may have to postpone if it looks like its gonna rain nonstop all weekend, and instead of being proactive and calling Brett or Lonnie, maybe asking what they meant, or if they thought the rain was gonna be a problem, or maybe wait till Thursday when the forecast is a little more accurate and call, YOU took it upon yourself to freak the fuck out and go full retard about how they fucked you and you are gonna kick and scream and not go. Try being a little more rational. They didn't cancel the course, YOU just decided to throw a fit and not go.

Either way, take a deep breath and calm down. In reality, someone with a temper like that and a habit of threatening random strangers on the internets to "discuss things in person" maybe shouldn't be carrying anyways.

YMMV
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:22:34 PM EST
It doesnt look like you are getting the support you were looking for when you first started this thread. But, there's no reason to start shitting on everyone who doesnt see it your way........

Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:27:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:53:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:12:46 PM EST by chad9mm]
I didnt freak out..My position is that if i go im not sure if i will get the whole class because they say it will be cancelled if it rains..If i show up and it rains the class will be cancelled..I dont want to waste anymore money on something that isn't for sure...you seem to keep getting past the point i would have no problem shooting in the rain..i would have liked nothing more than to show up and have a good time..But its very frustrating when someone tells you "show and we will see what happens".Maybe some peole don't have a life and feel no regret if they waste the day driving to a course that may not happen. .. ..i said they told me something completely different than what they advertised..I didnt threaten the guy i tried to make the point that he was over reacting a bit..I did talk to 'brett and he stated as i said before if it rains its over..All things aside their ad states rain or shine..
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 11:06:03 PM EST
First off, let me state that I'm one of the "Fat guys in a hat" in that picture. But I'm the shortest one!

Chad, I see your point and all I can say is honestly you should have gone to Lonnie or Brett and talked to them about it. There's no reason for you to even start this thread if you haven't done that first. At least give them a chance to correct what has been wronged. We shot in the rain, but there had been no one else "mudying" up the range before we got there and it was still hazardous and still one of the best times I've had in a long time. It's worth twice the price they charge and I'm sure we'll all be back together next year doing it again.

The reason they don't have pea gravel yet is because of funding. They are doing their best to run a zero debt business and they use profits to upgrade the range. Gravel and road conditions are on the top of their list of things to get done but they do not feel the need to go into debt to do it. They're smart guys.

Next, I think pretty much everyone in here saw your comments to Polytechkid as a threat. You called him an asshole first, called into question his work ethic and THEN asked for a face to face. I don't think any of us thought for a second you wanted to appologize, shake his hand and give him a hug. And for the record, Poly's work ethic is tops. He left a job that was running him into the ground and it wasn't an easy decision and one that his wife not only fully supported, but was wondering why he didn't do sooner and it's pretty childish to actually try to use it as an insult.

Lastly, if you show that photo of our group to any of the guys at DVC they will know us all and call us friends. We got to know them about as well as you can in two days. I seriously doubt they would make any of us Godfathers to their children, but we do consider the DVC guys personal friends. That's because we showed up with an open mind, showed them the respect they deserved and worked our butts off those two days and were seriously appreciative of what they gave us for the price they charged.

You have a valid complaint that should be taken up with DVC and not on an interwebs board.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:11:43 AM EST
Kinda sucks when you don't get your E-validation doesn't it?

Thanks for the backup TR
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:18:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:58:48 PM EST by spectre556]

Originally Posted By PantherArms762:
Originally Posted By chad9mm:
For the last time THEIR ADD SAID RAIN OR SHINE!!! So people assume its in an area were you can shoot in the fucking rain..Do any of you guys understand english that are responding here? if i had know it was a grass and dirt range i would not have signed up for this time of the year.. The only thing your told iis what to bring,where it is,how much it costs,and that they shoot rain or shine..Go to the web page and read it yourself


Look dude, you're gonna feel the way you're gonna feel no matter what anyone says. From my side of the thread it appears you read the line in your email that said they may have to postpone if it looks like its gonna rain nonstop all weekend, and instead of being proactive and calling Brett or Lonnie, maybe asking what they meant, or if they thought the rain was gonna be a problem, or maybe wait till Thursday when the forecast is a little more accurate and call, YOU took it upon yourself to freak the fuck out and go full retard about how they fucked you and you are gonna kick and scream and not go. Try being a little more rational. They didn't cancel the course, YOU just decided to throw a fit and not go.

Either way, take a deep breath and calm down. In reality, someone with a temper like that and a habit of threatening random strangers on the internets to "discuss things in person" maybe shouldn't be carrying anyways.

YMMV


You never go "full retard" everyone knows that...
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:41:55 AM EST
You haven't seen full retard yet...
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 12:31:06 PM EST
Jeez can't we all just be friends? it just doesn't set well with me loosing money on a deal i've waited 2 months for..I have no time to reschedule i work to much.Between Ford,three rental properties,and the training it doesn't leave much time for this kind of stuff...Thats why i signed up somewhere that was rain or shine so i would be able to go for sure..And once again i assumed the range was weather proof since it was advertised that way..I don't have alot of extra time like some people so i have to go where i can be productive..Instead of going to the course i'm starting the rehab on the fourth rental this weekend..The main point i tried to make is if you cant tell me for sure its gonna happen i've got other things to do..

Not everybodies postion's are the same so don't judge me for wanting to be productive with my time..
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 12:33:22 PM EST
The over use of the ellipsis in this thread is criminal.

This thread has run amuck.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 12:46:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 2:12:52 PM EST by mydogsnameisruger]
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 1:11:42 PM EST
I guess i figured out not to post here for advice on anymore binds i get into..People get so offened and jump to conclusions way to fast...No joke polytech Pinkerton govenment services are hiring security guards right now..Perfect profession for guys like us..Call the office downs on ward parkway and ask for Mitch..Tell him chad sent you
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 1:31:06 PM EST
Pinkerton can not handle my Lightning Bolt abilities.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 1:39:59 PM EST
maybe you can get a job as a delta operator then
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 2:03:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:32:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By UsernameTaken:
Pinkerton can not handle my Lightning Bolt abilities.


I think there were a few kids in my HS class that might be grand masters of the "lightning bolt"

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:09:02 PM EST
Now im stuck with 15k of extra 9mm that iwas going to let go to the dvc guys at my cost....Life long lesson learned..Get everything in writing and ask all questions twice
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:39:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 6:40:22 PM EST by PolyTechKID]
Originally Posted By chad9mm:
Now im stuck with 15k of extra 9mm that iwas going to let go to the dvc guys at my cost....Life long lesson learned..Get everything in writing and ask all questions twice


Man that sucks! Gonna be hard to move in a market so bloated with supply... EE's at the top of the HTF, doubt it would take long to move I'd buy some, but I don't have a job
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:03:23 PM EST
I sell everything at cost to friends and familiy,and dont sell to the general public....i wont sell to someone who is going to try and turn a profit off me,and screw someone else..So thats hard to do..I have to pretty much sell to people i know or ones that they know....Sorry about the asshole comment,but i tend to get bent out of shape when im getting screwed
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:10:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By chad9mm:
I guess i figured out not to post here for advice on anymore binds i get into..People get so offened and jump to conclusions way to fast...No joke polytech Pinkerton govenment services are hiring security guards right now..Perfect profession for guys like us..Call the office downs on ward parkway and ask for Mitch..Tell him chad sent you

Your thread didn't come across as being in a bind, you seemed pissed off that they might pull the class and came here to bitch about it. I totally understand time off and funds being an issue I really do. The first time I was scheduled for the class my father passed away, I literally called the guys at 0530 Saturday to let them know. They let me jump in on the next class and totally understood.

If you would have said you needed equipment to take the class, I'd bet everyone (DVC staff included) would have offered whatever they had to get you sqaured away. I dont know you and I still would if it meant you were able to run through the course. People got offended because they have trained with the DVC guys and know they are good folks.


Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:37:18 PM EST
Being a stranger to them i am not privilege to information about them or their practices..The only thing i was going off of was their advertisement,and the call that they made to me that was opposite of their information on the web page..So from the get go i was being mislead as far as im concerned...When i talked to them i wasn't offered a solution it was just stated that the course could be cancelled due to rain and if that happened they would figure something out..Never mention a refund or getting us into another class..And i have seen several people come here to bitch and it doesn't seem to be a problem..i would have had my own equipment purchased if i had been assured the class would go on..I do realize you can't control the weather..i advertise my classes as weather permiting for the range portion..some instuctors like Dutch advertise "we shoot rain or shine"and by God he does shoot rain or shine..The over all point i was trying to make is that i booked with them because i believed that the class would go on no matter if it rained or not..Other wise i would have booked later in the summer when there is a lot less chance of rain...Its the same as any other service that would be cancelled due to rain without disclosing it to you..

I had no idea what their range was like or what kind of surface it had..When i had talked to Brett three times before the course nothing was mention about rain issues,and the range..that would have been the prime time to mention it to a guy dont you think? Not two days before the course when a guy had already spent money and made extensive plans on it..I know its not a big deal to most,but it sure did screw up my whole weekend..I could have held a class and made money myself this weekend..Trust me i have learned my lesson with these type of things..I'll ask all questions twice and ask for it in writing..Im sure after all this it won't be easy to get my course fee back..I also never said these guys weren't professional,or good at what they do i simply believe they mislead me,and it didn't work out for the best..i had intended on heading out to have a good time and come back to my fellow 4,500 co-workers with a good report..i had several at work who wanted to put together classes...Now i have nothing to report.....Thanks for wasting your time responding to my stupid ass
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:53:09 PM EST
well finally checked my email tonight.......
well played chad

"I dont need validation i have paychecks for that...I'm sure you feel safe and very tough sitting behind your computer..I tried to make a point and get some advice on it..Your the one that took offense and started shit..Lets meet up and talk this out and be friends..you can even invite your internet buddies for protection
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-Email Generated From: AR15.Com "

you probably ought to shitcan this thread, that hole you're digging is getting kinda deep......
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