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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/4/2007 4:24:42 AM EST
cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_277083456.html
Dallas Robbery Gone Wrong Ends With 2 Dead
Attempted Robbery Turns Into Shootout At Dallas Shopping Center
Oct 4, 2007 7:33 am US/Central

(CBS 11 News) DALLAS A teen and a 19-year-old were shot and both later died when they approached a security guard sitting in his car in a Dallas shopping center.

According to reports, the security guard was approached by three people about midnight during his shift at a Golden Triangle Shopping Center, 2250 W. Red Bird Lane.

The security had an assault rifle and shot at the group. Two people were shot. One of them was taken to the hospital, where he later died.

Another one fled in a nearby vehicle and died when that car crashed.

A third suspect was arrested when he came back to the scene.

Police don't think the guard will face charges.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 5:53:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2007 7:20:56 AM EST by 41Fan]
I almost got run over by some armed robbers fleeing the scene of a robbery there once. I think having a good rifle was damned fine judgment, but I am curious about the law. Security Officers are commissioned to carry handguns the same way that CHLs are. They can get a rating for revolver or auto,(both). If they carry a shotgun or even have one at their post, they need a shotgun rating which is a simple qualification test in addition to the pistol. There is no rifle category that I am aware of.
The Board as it is called is under DPS. They have investigators that go around and write tickets or even arrest Officers for all kinds of stuff. They cannot carry pepper spray without a certification and they have been arresting people for that. You are supposed to have certification for handcuffs and a baton as well. If they can carry rifles without any certification it would be a pretty interesting development.

A little more info.

www.star-telegram.com/news/story/256689.html
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 8:05:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By 41Fan:
I almost got run over by some armed robbers fleeing the scene of a robbery there once. I think having a good rifle was damned fine judgment, but I am curious about the law. Security Officers are commissioned to carry handguns the same way that CHLs are. They can get a rating for revolver or auto,(both). If they carry a shotgun or even have one at their post, they need a shotgun rating which is a simple qualification test in addition to the pistol. There is no rifle category that I am aware of.
The Board as it is called is under DPS. They have investigators that go around and write tickets or even arrest Officers for all kinds of stuff. They cannot carry pepper spray without a certification and they have been arresting people for that. You are supposed to have certification for handcuffs and a baton as well. If they can carry rifles without any certification it would be a pretty interesting development.

A little more info.

www.star-telegram.com/news/story/256689.html


To clarify a little; Security Guards to NOT need to be certified to carry pepper spray. There is also NO requirement for baton or handcuff training either.

A look at the penal code tells us that a Security Guard in uniform can is exempt from Unlawful Carrying a Weapon if he possess a valid commission, is in a distinctive uniform, and the weapon is in plain view. That means he can lawfull carry a handgun, illegal knife or club.

Chapter 1702 of the Texas Occupations Code adds additional restrictions for handguns and shotguns. The Code states that the guard cannot carry a firearm unless he has been through the prescribed training, which includes handgun and shotgun training. No mention is made in 1702 of requiring rifle training to carry rifle.

So the Penal Code and Occupations Code do not prohibit the carry of a rifle, but the Texas Administrative Code, section 35.34 seems to;


Texas Administrative Code 35.34
(d) Commissioned security officers or personal protection officers shall carry only a firearm of the category with which they have been formally trained and of which training documentation is on file with the board. Firearm categories will be shown on the individual's registration card and will be:

(1) SA: any handgun, whether semi-automatic or not,

(2) NSA: handguns that are not semi-automatic,

(3) STG: any shotgun.


So it seems the PSB might have an issue with this officer. Will be interesting to see.

NOTE: Years ago, no mention was made of shotgun in the guard laws, so some companies were putting non-commissioned guards out with shotguns and ZERO training. The shotgun was added to prevent that.

The twist to this is the guard was not CARRYING the rifle, it was in his car.............
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 8:12:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By hrt4me:
cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_277083456.html
Dallas Robbery Gone Wrong Ends With 2 Dead
Attempted Robbery Turns Into Shootout At Dallas Shopping Center
Oct 4, 2007 7:33 am US/Central

(CBS 11 News) DALLAS A teen and a 19-year-old were shot and both later died when they approached a security guard sitting in his car in a Dallas shopping center.

According to reports, the security guard was approached by three people about midnight during his shift at a Golden Triangle Shopping Center, 2250 W. Red Bird Lane.

The security had an assault rifle and shot at the group. Two people were shot. One of them was taken to the hospital, where he later died.

Another one fled in a nearby vehicle and died when that car crashed.

A third suspect was arrested when he came back to the scene.

Police don't think the guard will face charges.


What a liberal, piece of shit article. It conviently leaves out that the poor, misunderstood children who had never done anything wrong were threatening the guard with a gun when they were savagely murdered.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 8:53:53 AM EST
[mallninja]I wonder if his plan included taking multiple .338 hits to the back.......[/mallninja]



Sorry, I couldent resist.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 11:18:11 AM EST
DMN did a little bit better job...

www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/100407dnmetshooting.138951a98.html


A parking lot security guard shot and killed two suspected robbers with an assault rifle Wednesday night in a strip mall near Executive Airport.

Police said the incident started around 11:30 p.m. when three men attempted to rob the security guard in the parking lot of the shopping center in the 2200 block of West Red Bird Lane.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 1:22:45 PM EST
Just heard it was an SKS.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 1:28:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2007 1:28:41 PM EST by AKJEFF]

Originally Posted By CQToverVmatch:
Just heard it was an SKS.



Yep-the ktvt link shows it! The poor children had jobs and the security guard was mistaken, they were not trying to rob him with loaded guns.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 6:01:44 PM EST
The Star-Telegram link says that it was a "semi-automatic SKS carbine" and that he was properly "licensed and authorized to carry that weapon".
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 5:44:34 AM EST
So AKA, not a felon. Awesome job media!
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:45:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Centuryhouse:
The Star-Telegram link says that it was a "semi-automatic SKS carbine" and that he was properly "licensed and authorized to carry that weapon".


Too bad he is not licensed to carry it. There is no licensing of rifles. Whether he was authorized is a matter of debate.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 9:45:42 AM EST
www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/100507dnmetguardshoot.2cdef6a.htmlhttp://



Guard kills 2 in robbery attempt in Red Bird

Third suspect is in custody; man shot pair with assault rifle

08:48 PM CDT on Thursday, October 4, 2007

By TANYA EISERER / The Dallas Morning News
teiserer@dallasnews.com

A security guard used an assault rifle to kill two robbery suspects at a Red Bird strip mall late Wednesday, police said.

Police say the guard grabbed his weapon when one of the men pointed a handgun at him.
Brandon Stewart
Brandon Stewart

Sergio Vann, the 19-year-old gun-wielding assailant, died at the scene late Wednesday. Detavias Davis, 17, who was driving the getaway car, died at a hospital.

A third suspect, Brandon Stewart, 18, was being held in the Dallas County Jail on a charge of aggravated robbery.

Police are looking into whether the trio may have been involved in other robberies.

Dedrick Howard, the 20-year-old security guard, declined to comment. His employer did not return a call seeking comment.

The incident happened about 11:30 p.m. Wednesday in the parking lot of a shopping center in the 2200 block of West Red Bird Lane.

Mr. Howard, a licensed security guard, told police that he was on duty, sitting in his vehicle and working on a laptop when he noticed a white Mitsubishi circling the parking lot.

The car parked two spaces away from him, police said. Two men, identified as Mr. Vann and Mr. Stewart, got out and ran toward Mr. Howard's car, police said.

"One kid asked him, 'Do you have change for a $20?' " said police Sgt. Ray Beaudreault, a homicide supervisor. "Of course, he didn't. The other kid pulled a gun and told him to get out of the car."

As Mr. Howard got out of the car, he grabbed an assault rifle from the passenger seat and fired several rounds. Mr. Vann was hit, and Mr. Stewart ran.

The getaway car's driver, identified as Mr. Davis, restarted the car, police said. Thinking the driver might have a weapon, Mr. Howard then shot at the car, striking Mr. Davis, police said.

As Mr. Davis fled, fatally wounded, he lost control of his car and it struck another vehicle, authorities said.

Police think Mr. Vann, who had the gun, tried to fire it at Mr. Howard because police found a round in the gun's chamber and two live rounds on the ground, Sgt. Beaudreault said.

"I think that's probably what saved the security guard's life, because he had time to fire his weapon before Sergio did," Sgt. Beaudreault said. "He didn't know how to operate the weapon."

Sgt. Beaudreault said he believes that, typically, armed security guards carry handguns and not assault rifles. "It's not your standard weapon," he said.

Mr. Howard fired 11 rounds from the assault rifle, police said.

Police say Mr. Stewart was arrested when he returned about 15 minutes later to retrieve his cellphone and jacket from the car. Mr. Stewart told detectives that he and his accomplices planned to rob Mr. Howard of his laptop, a police report said.

"Kids at that age need to be in school, getting a good education," said Sgt. Beaudreault. "Why they're out there robbing a security guard is beyond me. I don't really know what to make of it."

After the shooting, Mr. Vann's mother called and spoke with a detective. She told police that her son worked at Wal-Mart and that Wednesday was his day off.

"She said he was a good kid," Sgt. Beaudreault said.

Sgt. Beaudreault said the deaths of the two suspected robbers will be referred to a grand jury. But it is unlikely that a grand jury will indict Mr. Howard because state law allows a person to use deadly force to prevent being robbed.

State law also does not require that someone retreat before using deadly force to defend themselves in their homes, cars or places of business.

The Officer received his commission from the Board to carry a handgun and possibly a shotgun just 4 months ago. If anyone gives him any trouble, it will be the Texas Private Security Board. It should not be too big of a deal, but I bet he looses his license. Better than loosing his life. Rifle in car while off duty would be no problem at all. HMMM, maybe he was on a break.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 9:47:36 AM EST
Sks wouldnt be my first choice for a truck gun but hey wtvr works guess he's got the shorter model...
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 9:53:16 AM EST
11rnds out of an SKS? either he was using a detachable mag, or he over stuffed the 10rnd box. How do you over stuff an SKS anyways? Not like you can pull the mag out and +1 it...


Oh, and I almost forgot, an SKS isnt an assault rifle...
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:16:20 AM EST
too bad he couldn't have got the third turd when he came back, i believe the gene pool was cleaned that evening. i hope the guard has a good support system or a counselor to help him get through all of this because i have never shot at anyone but i imagine it is not a good feeling taking another mans life, piece of shit or not. i'm glad it turned out well for the guard.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:17:19 AM EST
just put an extended mag on the SKS.

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:57:21 PM EST
Headline would be a lot kewler if it said:

Mall Ninja kills thugs with Cold-War Era Relic
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:08:45 PM EST
(mallninja thoughts) at least it wasn't one of those unreliable MP-5's; he left the Bobcat 9mm at home for his wife to hold off the zombies.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:49:10 PM EST
I wonder why he didnt get the stinger missles out of the tacti-cool patrol golf cart?
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 3:56:30 PM EST
It would have been COOOOLER if the SKS still had the bayonet, and the guard killed those "thug life bitches" with the bayonet. Thats how gangstas roll.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 9:24:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Centuryhouse:
The Star-Telegram link says that it was a "semi-automatic SKS carbine" and that he was properly "licensed and authorized to carry that weapon".


Too bad he is not licensed to carry it. There is no licensing of rifles. Whether he was authorized is a matter of debate.


i dont think PSB can criminally prosecute this Security Officer if he gets no-billed, which he most likely will. the logic im thinking is that if a private citizen could lawfully carry the rifle and use deadly force in the same encounter, and a security officer is a citizen (not a peace officer), then why would the rules of engagement be different?

i suspect that the worst thing PSB could do is perform some sort of administrative sanction. however, seeing that there is no clear prohibition on a security officer carrying a long gun, i'd think the most they could do is administratively penalize the officer.

i really doubt they will go after the officer, but hey, that's just my opinion. it will be interesting to see how their policies change, if they do.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:54:45 PM EST
Sounds like a pretty damn good shoot to me.

Of course when I read the rifle was an SKS ... ......

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:43:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 3:44:10 PM EST by txinvestigator]

Originally Posted By spreadfirearms:

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Centuryhouse:
The Star-Telegram link says that it was a "semi-automatic SKS carbine" and that he was properly "licensed and authorized to carry that weapon".


Too bad he is not licensed to carry it. There is no licensing of rifles. Whether he was authorized is a matter of debate.


i dont think PSB can criminally prosecute this Security Officer if he gets no-billed, which he most likely will. the logic im thinking is that if a private citizen could lawfully carry the rifle and use deadly force in the same encounter, and a security officer is a citizen (not a peace officer), then why would the rules of engagement be different?

i suspect that the worst thing PSB could do is perform some sort of administrative sanction. however, seeing that there is no clear prohibition on a security officer carrying a long gun, i'd think the most they could do is administratively penalize the officer.
There is no specific prohibition against long guns, but the TAC states clearly that a guard can only carry a firearm for which they are commissioned, and the only ones allowed are semi-automatic handguns, handguns that are not semi-automatic, and shotguns. Since rifles are not permitted, they are not legal for a guard to carry. IMO, the question is "was the guard carrying the rifle if it was in his vehicle.


i really doubt they will go after the officer, but hey, that's just my opinion. it will be interesting to see how their policies change, if they do.


As a licensed manager AND company owner, I suspect they will.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 4:55:09 PM EST
Under what law would he be prosecuted for carrying a rifle?

And is the offense considered a misdemeanor or felony?
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:13:56 PM EST
This is my favorite line in the whole story.

"Police think Mr. Vann, who had the gun, tried to fire it at Mr. Howard because police found a round in the gun's chamber and two live rounds on the ground"


It must have been a jennings or some other crap little gun.

That sks works every time. - LOL
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:06:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By LuvThmGuns:

That sks works every time. - LOL


YEA! lol
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:08:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By 41Fan:

"She said he was a good kid," Sgt. Beaudreault said.



You knew it was coming.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:39:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Under what law would he be prosecuted for carrying a rifle?

And is the offense considered a misdemeanor or felony?


The Texas Occupations Code and Texas Administrative Code. It would be a misdemeanor.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:14:57 PM EST
My understanding is: anyone can carry a rifle in their vehicle in Texas. You don't need a permit, nor does it need be concealed.

If this is indeed the case, and the guard was in his own vehicle, I don't see how they can fuck him around for doing what any citizen is entitled to do...have a rifle in his rig.

I sure hope he gets no-billed!
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:18:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
My understanding is: anyone can carry a rifle in their vehicle in Texas. You don't need a permit, nor does it need be concealed.

If this is indeed the case, and the guard was in his own vehicle, I don't see how they can fuck him around for doing what any citizen is entitled to do...have a rifle in his rig.

I sure hope he gets no-billed!


A guard with a CHL cannot carry a handgun while on duty without a security commission, nor can a guard carry a shotgun while on duty without a commission and being certified to carry the shotgun. No different for a rifle.



Then I sure hope he was on break!
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:20:50 AM EST
Tx Investigator you usually have really good write ups and show complete understanding and research. On this article you over step and do not do complete research. If you read on in the sections you mention it states what exactly a security officer can and cannot carry in regards to OC, Baton, and A handgun. It does not give the security officer the ability and right to carry ANY illegal weapon. First and foremost, a commissioned or non-commissioned security officer with OC/pepper spray...if it is a size to be determined as OTHER than a personal defense size commercially available MUST have certification in order to have a justification to defense against it as an prohibited weapon. It is not a club, illegal knife or handgun. It is a chemical dispensing device. You are correct about a baton being a club and therefore not needing additional training however as with the handgun it MUST be in plain view (at certain locations)(for commissioned security officers) level 4 officers may have it concealed. If a non-commissioned security officer is carrying one at a prohibited location then they would be in violation. I only correct you in this as I know several members look to you for your advice and if they are security officers might misuse this advice and be cited accordingly. Now to the case in point. The rifle is not regulated by the private security bureau(PSB). Unless it specifically states they cannot carry it according to the PSB or the penal code(PC) then they do not do anything about it. Because they specifically mention handgun and shotgun use and training then those must be certified in in order to be regulated by them. Again, not trying to step on any toes just asking that you read a little further in the PC. Below are excerpts from the areas of extra reading for all in case the above makes no sense.

PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.

(3) a security officer commissioned by the Texas Board of Private
Investigators and Private Security Agencies if:
(A) the actor is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
(B) the firearm or club is in plain view; or
(4)* *(deleted by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 318.)
(5) a security officer who holds a personal protection authorization
under the Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies Act (Article

PC §46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(8) a chemical dispensing device;
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for the possession
of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a security officer
and has received training on the use of the chemical dispensing device
by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer
Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this subsection by
the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a commissioned security
officer as defined by Section 1702.002, Occupations Code, or a
noncommissioned security officer registered under Section 1702.221,
Occupations Code.
4413(29bb), Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes).
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:59:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 11:02:04 AM EST by txinvestigator]

Originally Posted By mattctx:
Tx Investigator you usually have really good write ups and show complete understanding and research. On this article you over step and do not do complete research. If you read on in the sections you mention it states what exactly a security officer can and cannot carry in regards to OC, Baton, and A handgun. It does not give the security officer the ability and right to carry ANY illegal weapon. First and foremost, a commissioned or non-commissioned security officer with OC/pepper spray...if it is a size to be determined as OTHER than a personal defense size commercially available MUST have certification in order to have a justification to defense against it as an prohibited weapon.


What is your point? I never said a guard could carry ANY sized OC he wanted. 41Fan wrote that guards had to be certified to carry OC. That is not a true statement. Any guard can carry OC. He cannot carry a Chemical Dispensing Device without being BOTH commissioned and certified.


It is not a club, illegal knife or handgun. It is a chemical dispensing device.
nothing gets past you.


You are correct about a baton being a club and therefore not needing additional training however as with the handgun it MUST be in plain view (at certain locations)(for commissioned security officers) level 4 officers may have it concealed.
Yep, where did I contradict that? And we were discussing GUARDS, not PPOs. And location is irrelevant.


If a non-commissioned security officer is carrying one at a prohibited location then they would be in violation.
Negative, a non-commissioned guard can not carry a baton, lest he be in violation of UCW; UNLESS, he is working at an institute of higher education AND has received specific training


I only correct you in this as I know several members look to you for your advice and if they are security officers might misuse this advice and be cited accordingly.
You have not "corrected" me on anything. Perhaps you clarified a point IN YOUR mind, but my posts here are accurate.


Now to the case in point. The rifle is not regulated by the private security bureau(PSB). Unless it specifically states they cannot carry it according to the PSB or the penal code(PC) then they do not do anything about it.
OK, I am going to try to keep this simple. I am a licensed manger. That means I have passed a test given by the state on the Occupations Code and the Administrative Code as it applies to the Security Occupations. Have you?


Because they specifically mention handgun and shotgun use and training then those must be certified in in order to be regulated by them. Again, not trying to step on any toes just asking that you read a little further in the PC.


Here is the law and full explanations;


Texas Occupations Code
§ 1702.161. SECURITY OFFICER COMMISSION REQUIRED. (a) An
individual may not accept employment as a security officer to carry
a firearm in the course and scope of the individual's duties unless
the individual holds a security officer commission


Clearly only commissioned officers can carry a firearm while on duty. Any firearm. No mention is made here of what type.




Texas Administrative Code 35.34
(d) Commissioned security officers or personal protection officers shall carry only a firearm of the category with which they have been formally trained and of which training documentation is on file with the board. Firearm categories will be shown on the individual's registration card and will be:

(1) SA: any handgun, whether semi-automatic or not,

(2) NSA: handguns that are not semi-automatic,

(3) STG: any shotgun.



Rifles are not on that list. Due to TOC 1702.161 only commissioned officers can carry firearms, and then only those authorized under TAC 35.34.

I don't just pull this stuff out of my ass to post. I either already KNOW the reference or I look it up prior to posting it.
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