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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/15/2005 9:55:49 PM EDT
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Hello there fellow TEAM MEMBERS !!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:13:20 PM EDT
Wahey!

That's ALL of the regular posters team members.

Fantastic.

Tell you, I've learnt so much from this website, it's definately worth continuing my subscription year on year...
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:31:39 PM EDT


Well done. and all on your own too, no pushing!

Welcome abaord, now you get to play over in Team GD as well!
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:46:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:


Well done. and all on your own too, no pushing!

Welcome abaord, now you get to play over in Team GD as well!



NO PUSHING !! I was practically pressganged into it, but it'll be worth it.

Have any of you been lucky enough to win anything in the prize draw ? ( are you sure the u.k. entries get put in ? )
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:20:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clayo:

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:


Well done. and all on your own too, no pushing!

Welcome abaord, now you get to play over in Team GD as well!



NO PUSHING !! I was practically pressganged into it, but it'll be worth it.

Have any of you been lucky enough to win anything in the prize draw ? ( are you sure the u.k. entries get put in ? )



Well done Steve. We now have a clean sweep (well,except for the Surefire guy )

Prize draw isn't ready yet. Hope I win something though

Mark
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:22:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clayo:

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:


Well done. and all on your own too, no pushing!

Welcome abaord, now you get to play over in Team GD as well!



NO PUSHING !! I was practically pressganged into it, but it'll be worth it.

Have any of you been lucky enough to win anything in the prize draw ? ( are you sure the u.k. entries get put in ? )



We should all get an even chance. There's so many prizes that one of us should win at least a bumper sticker.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:45:14 AM EDT
Argh, yes , but what if we win a rifle ?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:57:40 AM EDT
Then we ask the supplier to supply it with a non drilled barrel and not to send the bolt...

UK legal....
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:03:40 PM EDT
That'll do for me.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:16:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:
and not to send the bolt...

UK legal....



Why, it's not illegal
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:09:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:41:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By elucidate:
and not to send the bolt...

UK legal....



Why, it's not illegal



I was led to believe a US, semi auto type bolt has bits on it that our bolts do not have. I don't KNOW this as the Black rifle book is currently sitting 150 miles away.

Dave
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:43:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Trouble is they don't 'build' Section 1 AR-15's in the States, and IIRC, once it's been a 'Section 5' it can't be down converted to Section 1, Matt can answer that one better.
ANdy



They can build rifles we can have. You just need to ask them to build it without gas parts and not to drill the barrel. Thus is built as a section 1 rifle. I've done a lot of checking regarding this and ITAR recently as I intend to be working closely with a dealer over there and getting him to build my M4 clone and then picking it up and bringing it back at the end of this year when work send me to the US for a week.

Dave
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:20:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By elucidate:
Then we ask the supplier to supply it with a non drilled barrel and not to send the bolt...

UK legal....



Trouble is they don't 'build' Section 1 AR-15's in the States, and IIRC, once it's been a 'Section 5' it can't be down converted to Section 1, Matt can answer that one better.


ANdy



This has been argued 'upstairs' on several occations.

Current 'wisdom' says that if a rifle or component would be/have ever been Sect5 if it had ever been in the UK then it and all its components are considered Section5 in the eyes of the law and prohibited.

Now if all those same components were made into a rifle that would satisfy our laws as Sect1 then it can be importedno problem. If you have the slot available on your FAC then that can act as the import licence. Either that or get it shipped to an RFD. Just have to get the sender to apply or an export licence.

If the makers supply it with a barrel with no gas port then that should be OK for our purposes, the rest can be exactly as standard AR15 (whatever variant) as long as it meets our minimum lengths, ie 24" min overall and 12" min barrel, and no burst or FA trigger/hammer parts! (these are Sect5 but won't make any difference to our rifles' operation at all, except the 22 kits possibly)

I believe the bolts are the same for all AR types (.223/5.56), it is just the bolt carrier that changes in some varients, but in our case any carrier should be OK.

JMHO, so check before you get into the import business!

Matt
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:23:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:
I believe the bolts are the same for all AR types (.223/5.56), it is just the bolt carrier that changes in some varients, but in our case any carrier should be OK.

JMHO, so check before you get into the import business!

Matt



Cool, that's pretty much what I found out but I didn't know the exact differences with the bolts, as even the Americans have hissy fits if people have real M16 bolts and carriers in a semi auto gun, so I thought it safest to get the bolt in the UK.

Dave
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:24:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:


They can build rifles we can have. You just need to ask them to build it without gas parts and not to drill the barrel. Thus is built as a section 1 rifle. I've done a lot of checking regarding this and ITAR recently as I intend to be working closely with a dealer over there and getting him to build my M4 clone and then picking it up and bringing it back at the end of this year when work send me to the US for a week.

Dave



Dave,

You will need an export licence. Check with the State Dept or exporter to see if they can get one issued. The process can take several weeks, or even months.

Then it is just a case of getting the carrier (airline) to agree to take the rifle on board, and this will havet o be done before you turn up at the airport if you want to make the flight (speaking from experience, and ask streetfighter as he nearly got the K-Y jelly treatment on his return to the UK)
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:26:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 12:41:52 AM EDT by Scope-eye]

Originally Posted By elucidate:

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:
I believe the bolts are the same for all AR types (.223/5.56), it is just the bolt carrier that changes in some varients, but in our case any carrier should be OK.

JMHO, so check before you get into the import business!

Matt



Cool, that's pretty much what I found out but I didn't know the exact differences with the bolts, as even the Americans have hissy fits if people have real M16 bolts and carriers in a semi auto gun, so I thought it safest to get the bolt in the UK.

Dave



It's not the bolt but the bolt carrier they are on about. It's mainly about the size and shape of the rear of the carrier, I'll get some pics in a moment and show you.


ETA (as I'm not a post whore!) Excuse the quality of the picture as it's taken with my phone and not my stills camera.

(To the best of my knowldge) The upper carrier in the pic is a M16 bolt, not it has the long filled-in part at the rear and the enclosed firing pin.
The other one is an AR15 carrier, with a shorter piece at the rear and an exposed pin.

Some carriers (lightweight ones) will have no filled-in piece at the rear. There are other various designs but the points to note are the ones mentioned above.

Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:27:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:
You will need an export licence. Check with the State Dept or exporter to see if they can get one issued. The process can take several weeks, or even months.



Cool. Am working on that presently. Current situation is this guy has already send stuff to the Royal Marine Recon Platoon, so am currently investigating that avenue before getting my own export licence. (I still have my MOD 90).

Dave
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:41:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:
as even the Americans have hissy fits if people have real M16 bolts and carriers in a semi auto gun,

Dave



carriers yes, bolts no. The bolts are all the same.
BTW, guess what type of carriers Fat Bob uses?? That's right M16.
Now you can have all those funky parts here, including M16 carriers and trigger groups, it's just not necessary or advisable.

Have you given any thought as to how you're actually going to purchase and posess a firearm in the US when you go there?? It's not that straightforward.

Mark
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:56:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By elucidate:
as even the Americans have hissy fits if people have real M16 bolts and carriers in a semi auto gun,

Dave



carriers yes, bolts no. The bolts are all the same.
BTW, guess what type of carriers Fat Bob uses?? That's right M16.
Now you can have all those funky parts here, including M16 carriers and trigger groups, it's just not necessary or advisable.

Have you given any thought as to how you're actually going to purchase and posess a firearm in the US when you go there?? It's not that straightforward.

Mark



Fat Bob makes a lot of his own carriers now. I've got to disagree with you on the M16 trigger parts here, as they are controlled items and specifically designed for full-auto use. Best not to use them at all, as they won't affect your rifle's operation over here anyway.

'watching my own back' Matt
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:03:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
Have you given any thought as to how you're actually going to purchase and posess a firearm in the US when you go there?? It's not that straightforward.
Mark



That's the bit I'm currently working on. This is where the helpfulness of people like you will be paramount :-)

Dave
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:12:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By elucidate:
as even the Americans have hissy fits if people have real M16 bolts and carriers in a semi auto gun,

Dave



carriers yes, bolts no. The bolts are all the same.
BTW, guess what type of carriers Fat Bob uses?? That's right M16.
Now you can have all those funky parts here, including M16 carriers and trigger groups, it's just not necessary or advisable.

Have you given any thought as to how you're actually going to purchase and posess a firearm in the US when you go there?? It's not that straightforward.

Mark



Fat Bob makes a lot of his own carriers now. I've got to disagree with you on the M16 trigger parts here, as they are controlled items and specifically designed for full-auto use. Best not to use them at all, as they won't affect your rifle's operation over here anyway.

'watching my own back' Matt




Well then, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.
Yes, fatty does make his own carriers, that's academic, but they are of M16 design, ie full length at the back and shrouded firing pin..
Now as to triggers, as I said, it's un-necessary to have a M16 trigger, but it can't be illegal just because it's a full auto part. Sect 5 is Sect 5. Parts is parts. As we can't even have full auto anyway, their usefullness is redundant. Besides their extra position doesn't automatically turn the gun into a machine gun, any more than the original disconnector in a std AR trigger doesn't turn a straight pull into a self loader.
Remember, I've had the nightmare of forensics examinations carried out on my rifle, I'll dig the relevant letter out later and see what it says, but the FCC report did state that there should be no distinction regarding component parts, just as long as they were controlled at some level.
This could go on and on, so lets quit now with everyone agreeing that I'm right

Mark
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:15:38 AM EDT
Matt did say although that may be the case he thought it 'best not to use them' just in case.

I know another person involved with AR's who thinks the same way, whom is also an RFD. I think it may be just a case of self preservation, especially when you are an RFD.

Is there case law on this? I'd be wary if there isn't.

Better safe than sorry....

Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:18:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Remember, I've had the nightmare of forensics examinations carried out on my rifle,

Mark



You and me both,
but I bet I've got more search warrents here than you!
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:32:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 12:47:14 PM EDT
Here's a copy of the letter I received from the Home Office when my rifle was subject to Forensics examinations.

It eventually turned out that the Forensics people couldn't give the police the opinion they weren't looking for, and the fact that the 9th FCC report had just been published, which gave the official opinions regarding Component Parts. That was when they decided that there should be no distinction when it comes to component parts, just that they should be controlled at some level. And that level is the Firearms Licensing System.
Incidentally, it all stemmed from the contract to build the Apache Helicopters in the UK, and in particular, the 30mm chain gun.
The authorities had stated that all components of the chain gun could only be manufactured by registered and licensed weapons manufacturing companies. This was deemed unreasonable as certain companies who manufactured parts for the system weren't even in the weapons business, ie Reynolds Chains, who make the chain drive.

Therefore I got my rifle back and never had any more problems

Mark
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:04:29 PM EDT
Thats cool.

Thanks for that. Learn something new everyday and all that...
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:43:29 PM EDT


The 5th paragraph says it all. Although the 9th FCC report made the distinction of common component parts, the parts for an M16 (full-auto and burst fire control) are not common parts for the AR15 as well. These parts are exclusively used on the (what would be) Sect5 firearm, (the M16 bolt carriers could possibly cause problems as well if 'they'were out to get you). Also they are not 'small common items, such as screws, pins and springs' that would have a use outside of the firearms business, and these parts were deemed to be uncontrolled at any level.

Now it is also true that the opinion of the FSS and the FCC are not law and only a court can decide what is legal or not (but will take the FSS's and FCC's opinions into account). It would be better to not even go there.

AFAIK, there is no case law on this issue, and I don't want to make it.
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