Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
9/16/2019 10:09:13 PM
Posted: 3/25/2009 3:32:38 AM EDT
1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting
By ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH
jlebovich@MiamiHerald.com
One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.

Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.

A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.

The customer and robber exchanged fire.

The robber was shot dead at the scene.

The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.

At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 5:44:42 AM EDT
I wonder if there is any security camera footage of this one?

Mindset carried the day, multiple gunshot wounds and still dispatched the bad guy.
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 6:27:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Mindset carried the day, multiple gunshot wounds and still dispatched the bad guy.


I might have to disagree to some extent on this one. Not about the mindset, but about the choice of when and when not to start shooting. Granted, the "good guy" came out alive, and the bad guy is dead. However, the good guy is now full of holes, and will likely suffer the effects for the rest of his life.

And no, I wasn't there so I don't know what the situation was like, but I don't know that I would necessarily just whip it out and start shooting if I was witness to a robbery such as this one. The burger joint is undoubtedly insured against loss. While I certainly don't condone armed robbery, I might be hesitant to stick my neck out for a corporation. The best course of action might have been to keep one's head down and one's eyes open and be the best witness possible, and let the police do their thing after the fact.

Don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to the use of force when necessary. But to kill a guy over stealing a couple hundred dollars is not a small thing either.

The point at which my attitude changes on this is when it appears people are in danger. Again, I wasn't there, so I don't know. How was the guy acting? Did the armed citizen believe the robber was going to start shooting at the diners or employees? Was the criminal acting irrational, like he intended to shoot someone? Or was it a "stick 'em up - grab the money - run for it" type situation.

If it appears that people are in danger, than yes - start shooting. But be smart about it. Wait until the guy's attention is elsewhere and then shoot the SOB in the back of the head. Cowardly - maybe. if you want to call it that. Smart - you bet. Keep in mind, you are not necessarily trying to kill the guy. You are trying to stop the threat - right now. If he happens to die, that is an unfortunate side-effect. But in this case it seems the bad guy may have been able to continue shooting after taking hits from the good guy. Good example of shooting the guy, but not stopping the threat immediately.

Link Posted: 3/25/2009 8:20:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2009 8:21:35 AM EDT by MouseGun87]
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Mindset carried the day, multiple gunshot wounds and still dispatched the bad guy.


I might have to disagree to some extent on this one. Not about the mindset, but about the choice of when and when not to start shooting. Granted, the "good guy" came out alive, and the bad guy is dead. However, the good guy is now full of holes, and will likely suffer the effects for the rest of his life.

And no, I wasn't there so I don't know what the situation was like, but I don't know that I would necessarily just whip it out and start shooting if I was witness to a robbery such as this one. The burger joint is undoubtedly insured against loss. While I certainly don't condone armed robbery, I might be hesitant to stick my neck out for a corporation. The best course of action might have been to keep one's head down and one's eyes open and be the best witness possible, and let the police do their thing after the fact.

Don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to the use of force when necessary. But to kill a guy over stealing a couple hundred dollars is not a small thing either.

The point at which my attitude changes on this is when it appears people are in danger. Again, I wasn't there, so I don't know. How was the guy acting? Did the armed citizen believe the robber was going to start shooting at the diners or employees? Was the criminal acting irrational, like he intended to shoot someone? Or was it a "stick 'em up - grab the money - run for it" type situation.

If it appears that people are in danger, than yes - start shooting. But be smart about it. Wait until the guy's attention is elsewhere and then shoot the SOB in the back of the head. Cowardly - maybe. if you want to call it that. Smart - you bet. Keep in mind, you are not necessarily trying to kill the guy. You are trying to stop the threat - right now. If he happens to die, that is an unfortunate side-effect. But in this case it seems the bad guy may have been able to continue shooting after taking hits from the good guy. Good example of shooting the guy, but not stopping the threat immediately.



+1

After reading the article, my wife and I spoke about this. What would we do if we were in a place while robbery is in progress?
Both of us agree to remain in our seat, get the ccw piece(s) out and ready for action, but keep it out of sight.
Kids will slowly duck under the table. We will not do anything until:

1. Bad guys tell people to move to a certain location (say the restroom or kitchen). OR
2. Bad guys tell people to lay on the floor, face down. OR
3. Bad guys start to shoot at people, or begin to point a gun at us.

If any one of the conditions above is met ..... we'll use the ccw piece as it is meant to be used.
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 10:09:24 AM EDT
There is more to this story.....like the customer started arguing with the robber before gunfire was exchanged

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/966133.html
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 11:25:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Mindset carried the day, multiple gunshot wounds and still dispatched the bad guy.


I might have to disagree to some extent on this one. Not about the mindset, but about the choice of when and when not to start shooting. Granted, the "good guy" came out alive, and the bad guy is dead. However, the good guy is now full of holes, and will likely suffer the effects for the rest of his life.

And no, I wasn't there so I don't know what the situation was like, but I don't know that I would necessarily just whip it out and start shooting if I was witness to a robbery such as this one. The burger joint is undoubtedly insured against loss. While I certainly don't condone armed robbery, I might be hesitant to stick my neck out for a corporation. The best course of action might have been to keep one's head down and one's eyes open and be the best witness possible, and let the police do their thing after the fact.

Don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to the use of force when necessary. But to kill a guy over stealing a couple hundred dollars is not a small thing either.

The point at which my attitude changes on this is when it appears people are in danger. Again, I wasn't there, so I don't know. How was the guy acting? Did the armed citizen believe the robber was going to start shooting at the diners or employees? Was the criminal acting irrational, like he intended to shoot someone? Or was it a "stick 'em up - grab the money - run for it" type situation.

If it appears that people are in danger, than yes - start shooting. But be smart about it. Wait until the guy's attention is elsewhere and then shoot the SOB in the back of the head. Cowardly - maybe. if you want to call it that. Smart - you bet. Keep in mind, you are not necessarily trying to kill the guy. You are trying to stop the threat - right now. If he happens to die, that is an unfortunate side-effect. But in this case it seems the bad guy may have been able to continue shooting after taking hits from the good guy. Good example of shooting the guy, but not stopping the threat immediately.



So you quoted me to disagree but not disagree with my statement? My statement is solely about the mindset to win the fight...
Has nothing at all to do with the fact that apparently there was a Gap in his OODA Loop...

He did not seek cover he stood and delivered... THAT is why he got shot... Granted we don't know the entire truth here, Article says he argued with the perp... We don't KNOW what led up to the bullet tossing... I am guessing that he was alone and didn't have family to worry about. His actions drew the attention of the baddy which drew the baddy away from others... Did he observe the firearms safety rules? I am suspecting so since no one else was shot, Did he instigate the shoot? Probably, What did he do after the first bullet? Who FIRED the First Bullet?? What happened then? That is why I would like to see security camera footage... Could be interesting to see what REALLY happened.

I won't say he was correct in his actions. His decision making matrix went all to hell but, he still survived... That is when the Mindset came into the picture...

I will take a WAG here and say the following, I believe it ocurred like this, Perp entered the building and approached the counter, Hero observed this happening and tried to get a good mental picture of the perp, perp observes that he is being scrutinized and turns and threatens Hero, Hero snaps back at the perp who then threatens Hero's life, Hero reaches for his CCW, as he unholsters it, the perp gets antsy as Thieves are apt to do and again threatens Hero, Hero produces his CCW clearly and Perp decides to drop the hammer, Hero takes a not immediately life threatening hit, continues his presentation without taking cover and probably gets off a shot and takes a second bullet, Perp not exercising good judgement also takes additional hits but Hero is a shooter so he does a fair job of shooting Perp, who probably gets off another shot on the way down but Hero keeps his head and shoots perp a few more times... Thus ending Perps Criminal Career DRT... But HERO is wounded too, Bullet wounds Hurt like a sonuvabitch ask me how I know... continuing to take the fight to the perp while being shot is mindset... Like I say a gap in his OODA-Loop but otherwise he did OK.

For those unaware of the OODA-Loop it is Observe Orient Decide Act you do it all the time you just don't realize it has a name!!!

Could also be Observe Over react Destroy Appologize...
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 1:22:55 PM EDT
I don't think the robber should be killed. He should just have his hand cut off.
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 6:26:42 PM EDT
I have to agree, we were not there. If it was a simple robbery, were the robber was going to use a gun to intimidate and grab some fast cash (only thing fast now days at a fast food restaurant) and run. This is not a time to put your neck on the chopping block both physically or legally. But as someone mentioned, if it looks like he is going to shoot someone, then I would have to act. I could not stand by and let someone come to harm from some scum bag.

Sounds like the good guy, did about 3 or 4 things wrong. Shot at the bad guy without cover. Argued with the bad guy provoking a confrontation. Have to ask, who or what was behind the bad guy? Could a stray shot from the good guy have hurt or killed someone else?

Although good to hear that another perp has been taken out of the gene pool. But one hell of a cost to the defender.

Max
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 9:59:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AFSOC:

Could also be Observe Over react Destroy Appologize...


Link Posted: 3/26/2009 6:58:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2009 7:11:20 PM EDT by AFSOC]
Well the story is broken. And it turns out that I know the "Hero" somewhat through another board.

BY JOSE PAGLIERY
jpagliery@MiamiHerald.com
Miami police released the names of those involved in the Burger King shootout Tuesday that ended with a dead armed robber and the seriously-wounded customer who shot him.

John Landers, 45, was the customer who walked up to the gun-wielding masked robber, 18-year-old Johnny Jean-Baptiste, when the restaurant's clerk was being robbed at 4 p.m. Tuesday.
According to police, Jean-Baptiste wore a ski mask when he walked into the Burger King at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard armed with a gun. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early. Jean-Baptiste then approached the counter, pointed his tiny semiautomatic Bryco .380 towards the restaurant's employees and demanded money.

That's when Landers, armed with a concealed weapons permit and his 9mm Glock 19, asked Jean-Baptiste to put the gun down, according to the police report.
Jean-Baptiste refused and began firing his gun and Landers shot back, police reported.

Within seconds, Landers had been shot in his chest, shoulder and arm –– and Jean-Baptiste lay dead on the restaurant floor, according to police.

According to police, Jean-Baptiste entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money. Within seconds, Landers eyed him and the two started arguing.

Jean-Baptiste fell to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Landers, who was shot several times, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

After the shootings, police divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years, said at the time. ``It is scary.''

The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood –– featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Miami Herald staff writer Robert Samuels contributed to this story.


SO- He asked the Dipshit to put the gun down, the Dipshit fired first, Wildly with a POS Jennings/Bryco fookin 380... Hit John 3 times, Chest Arm and Shoulder He apparently hit the dipshit COM with two... AFTER absorbing 3 from said Dipshit...

The Gap in his OODA LOOP was when he told the idiot to put the gun down, he should have just Drawn the G19 and plugged the POS.

Good Shoot... Those who disagree well that is fine. Typical.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:08:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:10:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:12:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 7:13:14 AM EDT by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:22:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
I thought the proper technique for a bar/restaurant gun fight was to flip over the particle-board/veneer table and use it for cover.


It would probably be sufficient to stop a 380 from a Jennings or Bryco ...
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:25:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Well the story is broken. And it turns out that I know the "Hero" somewhat through another board.

BY JOSE PAGLIERY
jpagliery@MiamiHerald.com
Miami police released the names of those involved in the Burger King shootout Tuesday that ended with a dead armed robber and the seriously-wounded customer who shot him.

John Landers, 45, was the customer who walked up to the gun-wielding masked robber, 18-year-old Johnny Jean-Baptiste, when the restaurant's clerk was being robbed at 4 p.m. Tuesday.
According to police, Jean-Baptiste wore a ski mask when he walked into the Burger King at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard armed with a gun. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early. Jean-Baptiste then approached the counter, pointed his tiny semiautomatic Bryco .380 towards the restaurant's employees and demanded money.

That's when Landers, armed with a concealed weapons permit and his 9mm Glock 19, asked Jean-Baptiste to put the gun down, according to the police report.
Jean-Baptiste refused and began firing his gun and Landers shot back, police reported.

Within seconds, Landers had been shot in his chest, shoulder and arm –– and Jean-Baptiste lay dead on the restaurant floor, according to police.

According to police, Jean-Baptiste entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money. Within seconds, Landers eyed him and the two started arguing.

Jean-Baptiste fell to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Landers, who was shot several times, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

After the shootings, police divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years, said at the time. ``It is scary.''

The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood –– featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Miami Herald staff writer Robert Samuels contributed to this story.


SO- He asked the Dipshit to put the gun down, the Dipshit fired first, Wildly with a POS Jennings/Bryco fookin 380... Hit John 3 times, Chest Arm and Shoulder He apparently hit the dipshit COM with two... AFTER absorbing 3 from said Dipshit...

The Gap in his OODA LOOP was when he told the idiot to put the gun down, he should have just Drawn the G19 and plugged the POS.

Good Shoot... Those who disagree well that is fine. Typical.


In this situation, I would not interfere. But if I were to interfere, I would have had my G19 aimed and ready to go BOOM at the bad guy before telling him to drop it. IMHO Mr. Landers was too nice when he asked the bad guy to put it down without having his G19 out first.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:39:31 AM EDT
One more bad guy we'll never have to worry about. PISS ON HIM


Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:24:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MouseGun87:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
-snip-
The Gap in his OODA LOOP was when he told the idiot to put the gun down, he should have just Drawn the G19 and plugged the POS.

Good Shoot... Those who disagree well that is fine. Typical.


In this situation, I would not interfere. But if I were to interfere, I would have had my G19 aimed and ready to go BOOM at the bad guy before telling him to drop it. IMHO Mr. Landers was too nice when he asked the bad guy to put it down without having his G19 out first.


THIS...but i doubt the Hero will make the mistake again! the word Nice and Criminal DO NOT belong in the same sentence, ever. Just my opinion

Good shoot, i'm glad there is one less bad guy to worry about
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 9:21:04 AM EDT
Wasn't there a mall shooting within the last couple of years (in Omaha, I think) where the CCW holder intervened and got a shot to the spine from the bad guy's SKS for his trouble?

Another instance where it's time to either start shooting or keep your head down.

In the aftermath of a shooting if the prosecutor (or the family in a civil suit) claims that the CCW bystander jumped the gun (pun intended) when he started shooting, here are two instances that Mr. CCW can point to as to why he didn't try to talk the criminal down. There is either an immediate threat to life or there is not. If that threat is there, one is limited in the actions that they can take. ie. either stop the threat right now or get down and take cover. The time for talking is likely past.

Of course no two situations are the same, and one has to attempt to apply some common sense while making a split-second life & death decision. Hopefully none of us are ever put into that situation.

And again - in the instance of the Burger King holdup, I'm all for letting the guy rob the place and get away. I'll be the best witness that I can. When it appears that the bad guy is going to go from intimidating people with his gun to shooting people, that is the time to act.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:16:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:18:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 2:18:41 PM EDT
The guy was a member of LF.net. Here is the thread about him.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 4:08:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CanteTinza:
The guy was a member of LF.net. Here is the thread about him.


Unless you are a member over at LF you can't read the thread... If you sign up follow the rules or be prepared to be SQUASHED like a bug and used like a tennisball by the regulars
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 9:11:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By CanteTinza:
The guy was a member of LF.net. Here is the thread about him.


Unless you are a member over at LF you can't read the thread... If you sign up follow the rules or be prepared to be SQUASHED like a bug and used like a tennisball by the regulars


Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that.
Top Top