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12/6/2019 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 2/1/2007 9:22:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2007 7:37:39 AM EST by medicmandan]
Link Posted: 2/1/2007 11:38:08 AM EST
State Law says that it is legal for a permit holder to carry on campus. I didn't see that in his summary. They want to change the law to make it illegal. It is BS and doesn't make anyone safer.
Link Posted: 2/1/2007 11:44:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/1/2007 11:45:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/1/2007 1:59:20 PM EST
I resent the hell out of the President of the U going public with this before the text is available. I sent email to the contact listed in the email that went out from Young and got an out of office reply. The person taking emails will not be back until next week. Go figure!!

I will call my Senator and Rep but I need to know WTF is in the bill!!

How the F$%! can the U be for a bill that is not written yet?? Or is it written and Bell is being a piece of shit and not wanting to disclose it until the last minute.

I have to give the U some credit for at least trying to change the law instead of just ignoring it. However wrong they may be!! Although I have to wonder if this bill does not pass will they go back to ignoring state law?

Steve

Link Posted: 2/1/2007 2:58:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/1/2007 5:48:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/1/2007 6:02:56 PM EST by Shrike37]

Originally Posted By medicmandan:

Originally Posted By atomicferret:
State Law says that it is legal for a permit holder to carry on campus. I didn't see that in his summary. They want to change the law to make it illegal. It is BS and doesn't make anyone safer.


But he says they will feel safer and that's all that matters.


Will someone please explain to me how you would feel safer if ONLY the bad guys had guns? If someone is willing to go to the extreme and break the law by shooting someone, how in the world are we supposed to think that he would decide against it because it was illegal to bring the gun to school? "OH NO! They are going to add 5 years to my two consecutive life sentences for going on a shooting spree and killing 4 people on campus because I illegally concealed my gun!"

However, if one wanted to make the argument that having no guns on campus would mean there would be a less chance for an accidental shooting, how many people have accidentally been shot on campus? If they really wanted to feel safer, they should ban all automobiles on campus. Automobile accidents injure WAY more people on campus than shooting accidents. You would think these hippies would have already tried to do this because cars are causing global warming...

I don't agree with everything Michael Savage says, but he hit the nail right on the head when he says, "Liberalism is a mental disorder."
Link Posted: 2/1/2007 6:46:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/1/2007 7:37:27 PM EST
I worry that if the U gets its exemption, then the teacher's union will get CC in schools banned.

The church got their exemption; luckily this plague of mushy thinking has not spread any farther (yet).
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 6:31:17 AM EST
Tribune article on it
Linky
Legislation: Deal on guns is drawn up
U. president says bill on campus safety is 'best option available'
By Sheena McFarland
and Nicole Stricker
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 02/02/2007 01:50:24 AM MST


Lawmakers and higher-education officials appear to have agreed on a bill that would enable universities to regulate guns in student dormitories and faculty and staff offices and put an end to a protracted legal battle over guns on campus.
Sen. Gregory Bell, R-Fruit Heights, on Thursday confirmed he will sponsor SB251, which was not yet available to the public.
But University of Utah President Michael Young has seen it and characterized it as "the best option available to us."
If the bill passes, the U., which has led the fight for gun restrictions on campuses, will drop its federal lawsuit against the state, he said.
"Our satisfaction level is sufficient to not pursue'' federal remedies, Young said. "I don't think it's optimal for state agencies to solve our differences through litigation."
Most universities had policies banning guns before a 2004 Utah law allowed those holding concealed weapons permits to carry guns on campuses and in other previously protected areas. The U. sued over the law and eventually lost in the Utah Supreme Court last fall.
In a Thursday letter to U. faculty, students and staff, Young acknowledged that "the bill is not all that we hoped for," but added that concessions regarding dorms and student and faculty offices "reflect the current legal and political realities."
While the U.
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could pursue further action in the federal courts, "a favorable outcome is not at all assured," Young wrote, emphasizing the bill may be the best route for ensuring safety on campus.
"Coming to some common ground on this issue is important if we are to move forward."
The bill is the result of meetings between higher education officials, legislative leaders and lawmakers representing gun-rights interests.
They met during several weeks and Bell says they crafted language that will survive legislative scrutiny. He said the bill has a "good chance" of passing and that legislative leaders have been supportive.
The legislation does face challenges.
"I'm not comfortable with it yet," Rep. Curtis Oda, R-Clearfield, said after glancing through a draft Thursday.
Clark Aposhian, chairman of Utah's Department of Public Safety Concealed Carry Review Board, disagrees with the bill's entire premise.
"Until any entity including universities can show me an actual problem and then show me how banning firearms would solve that problem, I'm not inclined to support any type of a ban," he said.
Young remains hopeful.
"The negotiations proceeded on a very amicable basis," Young said. "I think we achieved something very useful in that we can assure parents, faculty and staff that [the U.] is a safe, compatible environment."
---
* SHEENA MCFARLAND can be contacted at smcfarland@sltrib.com or 801-257-8619.
---
* NICOLE STRICKER can be contacted at nstricker@sltrib.com or 801-257-8999.
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 6:51:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/2/2007 6:54:03 AM EST by 24ksports]
Remember the lobster in the pot on the stove - it started as a steam bath. Email your senators and house reps. - you can make a difference.
http://www.utah.gov/government/contactgov.html
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 6:56:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 1:44:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 4:10:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
Received a reply back from my Senator today:


Thank you for your comments.


If thats all he said, its utter horse shit.
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 4:21:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/2/2007 10:16:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2007 2:10:06 PM EST by Gibbles]
Bah, all this crap is probably just an extra credit assignment for debate or some other crap, some of those hippy teachers really get off on this stuff. A guy in the group of people I went rabbit hunting with once was a teacher or a teachers aid (I found it hard to get a straight answer but in the end I just did not care) was very anti gun for a guy shooting at rabbits, He sure disliked my AK, that I brought for some after rabbit hunt fun.
Guy always reminded me of Brainy smurf growing up (If you don’t know he is an annoying know it all.) and he was always doing something profoundly stupid in scout outtings.
Although after scorning me about owning such weapons he sure seemed to have fun with my 92FS.

For some reason when I hear them complaining about CCW’s I think of him trying to build a bridge across a stream with sticks and then falling in when the sticks snap when he is trying to cross.
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 11:08:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 12:53:26 PM EST
The section about not letting people room with those who have concealed weapons permits is... strange.
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 1:09:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 5:26:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By medicmandan:

Originally Posted By Jorg:
The section about not letting people room with those who have concealed weapons permits is... strange.


I would equate it to discrimination.


Seperate but equal ring a bell?? Will CWP holders get there own drinking fountains?

For a place that claims to be big on tolerance it is one of the least tolerant places!!


Steve
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 6:17:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 6:18:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By utahcybercowboy:

Originally Posted By medicmandan:

Originally Posted By Jorg:
The section about not letting people room with those who have concealed weapons permits is... strange.


I would equate it to discrimination.


Seperate but equal ring a bell?? Will CWP holders get there own drinking fountains?

For a place that claims to be big on tolerance it is one of the least tolerant places!!


Steve


Reading that, I cant make sense of it. Seems poorly written... or maybe my leagalese is getting rusty.
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 6:22:08 PM EST
Reading the bill doesn't it look like the individual staff/faculty member would have to request to be a gun free office?

Citizens are definitely never safe when the legislature is in session.

Link Posted: 2/6/2007 6:26:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/6/2007 6:31:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By utahcybercowboy:
Reading the bill doesn't it look like the individual staff/faculty member would have to request to be a gun free office?

Citizens are definitely never safe when the legislature is in session.



The really silly thing about all this, is that everyone would be safer if carrying concealed wasnt an issue. No handling of firearms in the "secure storage area" equates to no negligent discharges, and the crooks cant steal the guns if they dont know who is carrying them, or where they are stored. They wouldnt know which offices contained armed facutly, and which were unarmed. Putting up a sign saying "NO GUNS" is the same as saying "Crime welcome here"

Criminals fear armed citizens... not the laws they consistently break.



Link Posted: 2/7/2007 8:19:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/7/2007 12:49:07 PM EST
This is infuriating.
I also work at a state school in Utah.

Guys, PLEASE contact YOUR senators, as well as the senators on the rules committee:

Senator Bill Hickman, Chairman (Washington County) bhickman@utahsenate.org
Senator Peter Knudson (Box Elder, Tooele, Cache County) pkundson@utahsenate.org Home (435) 753-0043
Senator Chris Buttars (Salt Lake County) dcbuttars@utahsenate.org Home (801)561-0535
Senator Gregory Bell (Davis County) gbell@utahsenate.org (cell) 801-971-2001
Senator Darin Peterson (central Utah counties) dpeterson@utahsenate.org
Senator Gene Davis (Salt Lake County) gdavis@utahsenate.org Home (801) 484-9428
Senator Ed Mayne (Salt Lake County) emayne@utahsenate.org Home (801) 968-7756

Fax number for all Senators at the Capitol: 801-326-1475
Senate switchboard at the Capitol: 801-538-1035


Link Posted: 2/7/2007 12:50:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2007 7:33:43 AM EST by Primos]
Here is most of the text I included in my email.




I have a problem with SB251 (the Higher Education Concealed Firearms Restrictions) that is currently in the Rules Committee.
I have had a concealed firearm permit for a couple years, and frequently carry my weapon (legally) to the school. There have never been any problems with this.

Far from making campuses safer, this bill only disarms the good guys, like me, and makes campuses more attractive to criminals.
If allowed to impose any restrictions at all, the colleges will manipulate this rule to create a de facto campus-wide ban on LEGALLY carried self defense weapons.

There have never been any situations where a permit holder has caused harm with his weapon on a Utah campus.
In fact, I believe that allowing permit holders to carry on Utah public school grounds helps reduce (even a little bit) the risk of a REAL school shooting.
We both know that there is no such thing as "gun-free school zones". Criminals already break laws that prohibit rape and murder.
What makes us think that they will abide new laws? This bill disarms the WRONG people!

PLEASE oppose this bill. Keep it in the rules committee. Kill this legislation.
This is NOT a compromise. Permit holders lose everything, and gain nothing in this proposed legislation.

I would appreciate a response with your position on this.
Please don't allow good people to be disarmed.

Sincerely,

____________

Link Posted: 2/7/2007 12:52:21 PM EST
This is the email I received from the Utah Shooting Sports Council:



Utah Shooting Sports Council URGENT ACTION ALERT February 4, 2007
-- Immediate action required- Contact Senate Rules Committee to OPPOSE SB 251

***************
IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED

With the University of Utah threatening to resume their lawsuit in federal court, some Legislators are eager to give in to the University’s demand for authority to impose a campus gun ban. This will cover ALL of Utah’s state owned higher education facilities, not just the University of Utah!

Their previous ban (declared illegal by the Utah Supreme Court) applied only to University staff and students, but now they want to expand their control to ALL PERMIT HOLDERS who enter University property for any reason!

Existing laws cover violent criminal acts, threatening others with weapons, and restrict carrying concealed weapons by anyone but permit holders. The U’s President Young even admits this in his February 1, 2007 email, available at http://UtahShootingSports.com/ 07feb1.u.email.htm

Permit holders are all at least 21 years old, with a clean criminal record, are not drug addicts or mental cases, have had training, passed a FBI background check, and have their background checked again every single day! Permit holders are at least as law abiding as police officers and legislators, so they are not a threat to anyone at the Universities. It is absurd that the Universities, or the Legislature are discussing bans on permit holders!

Senator Greg Bell’s SB 251 (Higher Education- Concealed Firearm Restrictions) was finally released today. You can read the full text at http://le.utah.gov/~2007/bills/sbillint/sb0251.htm

This bill will allow Universities to make rules banning legally carried self defense guns from the office of a faculty or staff member. This could be twisted to apply to virtually any classroom, lab, locker room, janitorial closet, student aid office, library or other place on campus claimed to be an “office.” Theoretically, “reasonably proximate secure storage facilities” would be required, but that provision is wide open for abuse by having them several buildings away, if they bother to install them at all. It also will make known the identity of people who legally carry self defense weapons as they use these facilities. Criminals will never comply with such a requirement, just permit holders!

This bill will also allow rules that “allow residents to have only roommates who are not permit holders”. This can be an excuse to force permit holders into high priced singles, or exclude them from campus housing entirely. Imagine the outrage if they tried to exclude people based on race, religion or sexual orientation instead of being a law abiding permit holder!


ACTION REQUIRED- DO THIS NOW!!!

PLEASE CONTACT THE FOLLOWING MEMBERS OF THE RULES COMMITTEE IMMEDIATELY BY PHONE, FAX OR EMAIL. (Please be polite and do not call after 9:00 PM)

Senator Bill Hickman, Chairman (Washington County) bhickman@utahsenate.org
Senator Peter Knudson (Box Elder, Tooele, Cache County) pkundson@utahsenate.org Home (435) 753-0043
Senator Chris Buttars (Salt Lake County) dcbuttars@utahsenate.org Home (801)561-0535
Senator Gregory Bell (Davis County) gbell@utahsenate.org (cell) 801-971-2001
Senator Darin Peterson (central Utah counties) dpeterson@utahsenate.org
Senator Gene Davis (Salt Lake County) gdavis@utahsenate.org Home (801) 484-9428
Senator Ed Mayne (Salt Lake County) emayne@utahsenate.org Home (801) 968-7756

Fax number for all Senators at the Capitol: 801-326-1475
Senate switchboard at the Capitol: 801-538-1035

SUGGESTED FAX/ PHONE MESSAGE/ EMAIL:
- - - - - - - - - - -
Subject: OPPOSE SB 251 (Higher Education Concealed Firearms Restrictions)
Dear Senator ___________ [insert name]

I urge you to hold SB 251 (Higher Education Concealed Firearms Restrictions) in the Rules Committee.

1. This bill is a waste of the Legislature’s valuable time. It proposes unworkable solutions to non-existent problems! This does nothing to improve “campus safety.”
2. Contrary to the fears of some academics, permit holders have proven themselves to be law abiding, non-violent citizens. Laws are already on the books against violent crimes by them, or anyone else with a gun.
3. University offices neither need nor deserve more restrictions on permit holders than any other state office, many dealing with far more contentious issues than academic discussions. If there is a threat, it is not permit holders!
4. Implied threats from the University of Utah to resume federal lawsuits are reprehensible, and Legislators should not be intimidated by them.
5. Far from making campuses safer, this bill only disarms the good guys, making campuses more attractive to criminals.
6. If allowed to impose any restrictions at all, the Universities will manipulate their rules to create a de facto campus-wide ban on LEGALLY carried self defense weapons.

Please hold SB 251 in Rules, and use your valuable time on bills dealing with real problems and real solutions.

Sincerely,
[your name here]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Link Posted: 2/7/2007 8:38:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
In the Trib today:

www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5173565


Lawmaker proposes new campus gun restrictions
Owner-activists say the bill discriminates against a minority
By Sheena McFarland
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 02/07/2007 12:15:08 AM MST

The Legislature on Tuesday made public a bill that would enable universities to restrict guns on campus, and portions of the measure have gun rights advocates alleging discrimination.
SB251, sponsored by Sen. Greg Bell, R-Fruit Heights, would allow campuses to let faculty members decide if they want to allow guns in their private offices. It also would allow dormitory residents to choose not to have roommates who carry concealed weapons.
"There is no reason for a segregated dorm system. That would not be tolerated by any other minority," said Charles Hardy, public policy director for Gunowners of Utah (GOUtah). "Bigotry against minorities is very ugly, and at the University of Utah, gun owners are a minority. They should be afforded the same protections that are given to any other minority."
He also is concerned the bill may cause concealed weapon permit holders to lose the anonymity Utah law guarantees them.
The list of concealed weapons permit holders in Utah is secret, and Hardy said attempts by schools to identify concealed-weapons carriers when making room assignments would only worsen "discrimination and retaliation."
"The choice to own a gun is intensely personal, especially at a place such as the U. where there is such a social stigma," he said.
Bell said that while his bill doesn't specify how schools will determine who holds permits, he imagines they would ask students whether they want to reside with permit holders. Those who say "no" would room together, and permit holders would not be identified.
"It would only be a self-declaration," Bell said. "Permit holders wouldn't be required to fill anything out. Permit holders would not be known."
Many dorm residents are not even eligible for concealed weapons permits. To obtain a permit in Utah, a person must be 21 years old.
The U.'s Housing and Residential Education department oversees 2,300 beds, and about half of those are filled by freshmen, most of whom are younger than 21, said Peggy Shultz, manager for the U.'s Residence Services. However, the other half vary in age to as old as 84, she said.
For some students, even a single gun in residence halls or anywhere else on campus is too many.
"I feel better not having guns on campus," said Brittany English, a U. psychology senior. "Knowing people have guns and could lose their tempers scares me. Something could happen."
Bell, though, insists his bill is a "logical" solution, and said he believes the bill will pass. He expects opposition to diminish after people carefully read the legislation, which represents a compromise between pro-gun legislators and higher education officials.
The U., like other universities in the state, had a policy prohibiting guns on campus before a 2004 Utah law eliminated the restrictions. The U. sued over the law and eventually lost in the Utah Supreme Court last fall.
A federal lawsuit remains active, but U. President Michael Young last week said the U. will drop the lawsuit if Bell's bill passes.
---
* SHEENA McFARLAND can be contacted at smcfarland@sltrib.com or 801-257-8619.

SB251 would:

* Allow faculty members to allow or disallow guns in their offices
* Require faculty members to post signs stating whether guns are allowed
* Require secure storage areas for concealed weapons near faculty offices
* Allow students living in residency halls to choose not to have a concealed weapons permit holder as a roommate
* Make carrying a concealed weapon into an area designated as off limits to guns a misdemeanor offense



The part in red is wrong, it has been legal to carry on campus since '95. the school was in violation of the law with their policy. The Supreme Court clarified this. Don't let anyone tell you different.

I am going to call the hill tomorrow.
Link Posted: 2/13/2007 3:11:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2007 5:37:55 PM EST by Hatchet36]
Well... Those retards in the committee have voted to send SB 251 to the floor as is. One of them argued that it would be better for us to pass the bill instead of having the UofU win their case in the federal court.

I think everyone from the public who testified were all against it. I thank all of those who were able to be at the meeting and show their opposition to the bill. I think one of you even got up to testify.

One of these jokers after hearing that no one testified in favor of the bill said: "You know you have a good bill when everyone opposes it. Ha ha ha..."

These two were the only ones to vote against it, as far as I could tell from the live audio feed.

Sen. Lyle W. Hillyard
Sen. Mark B. Madsen

le.utah.gov/asp/interim/Commit.asp?Year=2007&Com=SSTJLC


Angry39
Link Posted: 2/13/2007 10:16:59 PM EST
I was there, wearing my U pistol Hoodie...I didn't testify because many already had. Not a single teacher or student showed up to support the bill, there were at least 30 of us there to oppose it. I don't think some of those senators heard a single thing that was said, and many good points were presented.

Hatchet, which were you?
Link Posted: 2/14/2007 4:56:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2007 4:59:23 AM EST by Hatchet36]
I was 3hrs south listening to the meeting live on the internet. I wish I could have been there in person. From listening to the senators after the people testified, it sure seemed like they had already sided with the UofU. They didn't hear a word from the public like you said atomicferret.
Link Posted: 2/14/2007 6:27:49 AM EST
height=8
Those retards in the committee have voted to send SB 251 to the floor as is.


height=8
From listening to the senators after the people testified, it sure seemed like they had already sided with the UofU.


I'm sure this had nothing to do with the fact that the chair of the committee is none other than the bill's sponsor and U of U Law School alum, Gregory S. Bell
Link Posted: 2/14/2007 7:46:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/14/2007 8:15:56 AM EST
I was the big, balding, guy with a goatee, in a blue suit that testified. I'm the one that brought up Trolley Square, their signs, and how the 2002 Appalacian Law School shooting was carried out in a faculty office, and stopped by two armed students.

We had an excellent showing. 24 people testified, and it was all good stuff.

We knew going in that we were more than likely going to lose this meeting. In fact I was stunned that we got Hillyard.

But we poked so damn many legal, moral, and tactical holes into this bill, that will now be discussed on the Senate floor. What you need to do now is contact your senators directly. Call them on the phone.

Be polite. Bring up the following issues.

-faculty office not defined. (anything that has a chair in it)
-reasonable proximate lockers not defined (1,000 meters away probably sounds reasonable to the U)
-There is no penalty for the U if they dont' install lockers. They still haven't installed lockers for the "secure meeting room" they got last session.
-The law is poorly written, in such a way that this could be a violation of the secure facilities clause, and could be a potential felony.
-The U already allows students to get different roomates for ANY reason. Singleing out CW people is unnceccesary.
-It is illegal for BCI to publish a list of CCW holders, so the U would have to force people to self declare.
-so faculty has no guns in their offices? So who protects students from faculty? There have been female students raped and sexually assaulted by faculty and staff in offices.
-this is a defacto ban, because the U will make it so hard to comply with that students will leave their guns home.
-concealed carry holsters are not designed for convenience, they are designed for comfort. Forcing students to draw, safe, and reholster their guns, everytime they move around campus is a safety issue.
-Concealed means concealed. Students will be forced to give up their anonymity by going into these locker rooms.

Those are some of the points brought up in the meeting last night. Now go and HAMMER your senators.



Link Posted: 2/14/2007 8:23:14 AM EST
And here we are in the news: http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_5223644
Link Posted: 2/15/2007 7:13:27 PM EST
That was a really good read it sounded like the anti's had nothing good to say in defense. (Do they ever?)
Link Posted: 2/19/2007 7:39:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 2:28:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 2:45:55 PM EST by Jorg]
http://le.utah.gov/~2007/status/sbillsta/sb0251.001s.txt

This appears to mean it passed?

I don't know what "PASSAGE 2 & 3 UNDER SUSP. RULES" means, but it sounds like it passed.

ETA: It has passed and requires one more reading before going to the house. Time to contact our house representatives.

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_051185724.html
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 2:51:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 3:04:03 PM EST by medicmandan]
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 3:18:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 12:59:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 1:00:25 PM EST by utahcybercowboy]
So we will have to unarm(if this passes the house) to enter certain offices and everyone will know that I am packing. What would happen if I just open carried? What would the law be on this? My understanding is that open carry with a permit is legal. So why can't I open carry on the U? After all it would just be me exercising my second and first amendment rights at the same time!


Steve

eta: If open carry on the U is legal it would be worth open carry just to watch the liberals have a coronary. Of course they would be back next year trying to shut this down.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:30:40 AM EST
I heard on the radio this morming that they stipped the dorm provisions. What remains of the bill passed the Senate but will most likely die in the house.

It sounded like the bills letting employees keep their weapons in their cars at work and not letting inns ban guns will pass.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:26:12 AM EST
Don't be so sure it will die in the house. I'm not hearing good vibes from there right now. Beat up on this thing as much as you can, and please, for the love of John Moses Browning, call your rep!
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 4:23:58 PM EST
I cannot believe that this horseshit is still dragging on and on and on and on and on and on...

I left there a year and half ago and came to Virginia. Why is it so hard for them to get it through their thick skulls that it is none of their business. Why is it so hard for the educational establishment to live and let live, the free exchange of ideas, et al. No, they have to dictate everyone's lives in their little world.
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