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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/5/2006 9:24:16 PM EDT
I've been looking at these new Yugo M70AB underfolding AK's that Century Arms just started selleing. Well, just a word of advice to anyone looking at one. When the rifle is in the folded position, it measures 25.75". That's only .25" shorter than 26" and according to Michigan law, that is considered a short barreled rifle and is illegal. I've seen a couple of dealers selling these and I doubt they know any better. I'd just hate to see some one get popped by the ATF or something with a gun they think to be 100% legal when it's not.

OK, that's my PSA for the night.

Kris
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:28:19 AM EDT
Is that with a brake? and was it measured from muzzle to reciever or muzzle to hand grip?
I was going to order one of those in the next month or two so that info is nice to have.

Thanks, Duane
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:01:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dsobczak0942:
Is that with a brake? and was it measured from muzzle to reciever or muzzle to hand grip?
I was going to order one of those in the next month or two so that info is nice to have.

Thanks, Duane



With the stock folded, we measured from the back of the receiver to the tip of the slant brake. It came in just under the legal limit. I saw one from Sherridan Arms in Saginaw, and they had welded a small brake onto the muzzle to just get it over that legal limit, but out of about 5 dealers or so, they were the first I've seen to do that. Either way, it still has to be registered as a pistol since it's under 30".

Kris
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:54:12 PM EDT
While it would have to be registered as a pistol in Michigan being under 30 inches (I think all underfolder AK's fit that mold) AFAIK, it can be made over the 26 inch minimum via a screw on brake of some sort (the AK74 style would definitely bring it over). AFAIK there is no Michigan requirement that it be wekded/blind pinned, etc.... that would be coming from Federal requirements of a rifle with a barrel under 16 inches having a welded/pinned device on the end to bring it over 16 inch.

So, it seems to me (though I am certainly not a lawyer) that one could buy a muzzel device, send it to the out of state source for the weapon, asking them to screw it on prior to sending the weapon into the state. Seems like that'd be perfectly legal. Any thought on this guys?

T Bone (Detroit).
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:58:02 PM EDT
As long as the muzzle device is permanantly attached, it is legal. The problem is not with the barrel length, but with the OAL of the rifle when folded. That is what brings it under tha 26" minimum. The thing I'm seeing is dealers in Michigan selling these factory stock with the slant brake not permanantly attached. Even with the slant brake, it's not big enough. I'd just really hate to see some one get in trouble over this stupid Michigan law.

Kris
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:07:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 6:08:32 PM EDT by TBoneDetroit]

The problem is not with the barrel length, but with the OAL of the rifle when folded. That is what brings it under tha 26" minimum.


I understood that, but was making a point that that's the way many sell 14 inch barrels with permanently attached brakes etc. to get them to pass the Federal standards of barrel length. Also that I didn't think it was required for the 26 inch Michigan minimum.


As long as the muzzle device is permanantly attached, it is legal.


What is your source for that? It was my understanding that this is not required by Michigan law.


I'd just really hate to see some one get in trouble over this stupid Michigan law.


Couldn't agree more!


T Bone (Detroit).
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:11:00 PM EDT
Does not have to be welded
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:43:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 5:13:38 AM EDT by SOCOMguy]
I went and got one of these registered at Oakland County and asked them if they had a problem with the OAL and to ask the State police about it.

They said they measure from the farthest distance which would be the front of muzzle (brake removed) and the end of the pistol grip (on a AK this is the furthest point back). I forgot what it measured, like 27 or 28 inches or something but it was totally fine.

No worries!! Oakland County and State Police guaranteed!

EDITED TO AD:

Just to recap, the gun in question has to have at least a 16inch barrel if it has a folding or collapsing stock and fall between an OAL of between 26 and 30 inches to be a pistol.

On a different gun like the bushmaster carbon-15, the barrel can be less than 16 inches but the gun cannot have a buttstock and must be less than 30 inches OAL to be a pistol.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:56:51 AM EDT
My PS90 has a 16" barrel, and the overall length is 26.3", so it's a MI Pistol / Federal rifle.
Your barrel MUST be 16" at the very least.
OAL for a long gun is 30" or more.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:15:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SOCOMguy:
I went and got one of these registered at Oakland County and asked them if they had a problem with the OAL and to ask the State police about it.

They said they measure from the farthest distance which would be the front of muzzle (brake removed) and the end of the pistol grip (on a AK this is the furthest point back). I forgot what it measured, like 27 or 28 inches or something but it was totally fine.

No worries!! Oakland County and State Police guaranteed!

EDITED TO AD:

Just to recap, the gun in question has to have at least a 16inch barrel if it has a folding or collapsing stock and fall between an OAL of between 26 and 30 inches to be a pistol.

On a different gun like the bushmaster carbon-15, the barrel can be less than 16 inches but the gun cannot have a buttstock and must be less than 30 inches OAL to be a pistol.



I didn't even think to measure the grip. The design on it sticks out past the back of the receiver and probably gives it that little bit more that it needs. Good observation!! This will help me with my Yugo M70AB build. Thanks for pointing that out.

Kris
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:29:19 AM EDT
I don't believe the muzzle brake needs to be welded to include it in the OAL. I don't see anything in the law saying sow. If the brake doesn’t count the pistol gripe wouldn't either! Very confusing subject, I haven't seen any proof either way.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:35:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RodMI:
I don't believe the muzzle brake needs to be welded to include it in the OAL. I don't see anything in the law saying sow. If the brake doesn’t count the pistol gripe wouldn't either! Very confusing subject, I haven't seen any proof either way.



IIRC, I did read that it had to be permanantly attached. I don't have the law in front of me, so I could be wrong. The way they look at it is if the brake can be removed, you would easily have a fireable SBR or whatever (in their eyes at least) Whereas the pistol grip is kinda needed to fire the rifle. That is the way I understood it. But again, I could be wrong, so don't quote me on it.

Kris
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:22:01 PM EDT
Wel, I'm dealing with memory here too, but as I recall, the place you are getting the permanently attached idea (for the muzzle brake) is from the Federal law, which is why I referenced it above. I've never seen any law that indicates a muzzle device must be permanently attached to meet Michigan's minimum length standards. I guess we need to research the laws, I was kinda hoping one of you who thought it DID need to be so would point out that law.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:12:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:
Wel, I'm dealing with memory here too, but as I recall, the place you are getting the permanently attached idea (for the muzzle brake) is from the Federal law, which is why I referenced it above. I've never seen any law that indicates a muzzle device must be permanently attached to meet Michigan's minimum length standards. I guess we need to research the laws, I was kinda hoping one of you who thought it DID need to be so would point out that law.



I'll have to read up on that. If they did leave that out from the wording of the law, that may be a good loophole in MI's dumb pistol law.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:10:39 AM EDT
So where's the best place to ask about an underfolder? I'm going to school in the UP and originally from MN so didn't have to worry about the stupid pistol law. I have 2 Yugo underfolder kits I would like to buy but not gonna chance it if it's considered a pistol.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:29:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Weasel_Master:
So where's the best place to ask about an underfolder? I'm going to school in the UP and originally from MN so didn't have to worry about the stupid pistol law. I have 2 Yugo underfolder kits I would like to buy but not gonna chance it if it's considered a pistol.



There is no doubt that if it is under 30" folded, it has to be registered as a pistol. That doesn't mean that you can't have a stock on it though. As long as it is at least 26" folded and has a minimum 16" barrel, it is a rifle that has to be registered as a pistol. I know it's kinda confusing, but that's just how it works.

Kris
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:48:55 PM EDT
But a pistol cannot have a stock on it right? As well, being a MN resident I wouldn't be able to transfer my reciever to me in MI as a pistol. Am I shit out of luck?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:06:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 4:09:19 PM EDT by RodMI]

Originally Posted By Weasel_Master:
But a pistol cannot have a stock on it right? As well, being a MN resident I wouldn't be able to transfer my reciever to me in MI as a pistol. Am I shit out of luck?



Yes it's a violation of federal law to have a pistol with a stock. But registering a folding stock AK betwean 26 and 30 inches as a pistol in Michigan is ok. Is it possible to get this stupid law changed to reflect the federal law?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:38:31 AM EDT
Can I register my reciever as a pistol in MI if I'm a MN resident? As well, when I move back to MN is my now registered pistol illegal because it's a pistol with a stock?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 5:17:06 AM EDT
I talked to the Sergeant of the Houghton police yesterday. Spent 15 minutes talking and know no more than I did before. He pretty much told me it has to be registered as a pistol if under 30". As well, cannot be less than 26". I told him this before we started talking but he pulled out the law book to see where I was getting the numbers. He said he didn't see a reason why it wouldn't be ok. He said he'd let me know if he heard anything different. He also told me to call the ATF and find out. They deal with federal laws not local right? So they wouldn't know either?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:35:46 AM EDT
LEO's god bless 'em, are not always up on the laws. I wouldn't bother with ATF, but it's your call.

Not having a shoulder stock on a pistol (that'd make it an NFA weapon) is a federal law, and has nothing to do with Michigans requirement of registering a rifle/shotgun between 26 and 30 inches as a pistol. If you are living here, by law, it must be registered. This will not put you in violation of the federal law. It will also not affect the weapon's status back in your home state.

As to transferring the weapon to yourself, that is not (technically) what you are doing. It is the same as moving here with any other handgun (I know, I know...) where registration is concerned.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:14:24 AM EDT
So I can buy the underfolder reciever here in MI. Build the rifle (or as MI sees it, a pistol) and then register it and be fine and dandy?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:27:24 AM EDT
Didn't know you were building, but that should have no bearing on this. To be sure, I am meeting with a gunsmith later today anyway, he builds tons of AK's. I'll verify this with him.

Let's not confuse the issue by calling it a pistol (even though the state of Michigan confuses the issue, by treating it as one, even they don't refer to it as one with the exception of the green "safety inspection" card).

And yes, as long as you register it in Michigan as a pistol, you will be good to go.

WARNING: Do not confuse this with federal laws! You still cannot put a shoulder stock on something the feds consider a pistol, or a short barrel on something the feds cosider a rifle. Just because Michigan registers it as a pistol does not make it so in the eyes of the feds! To do so would be in violation of the NFA. Not a good place to be!
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 2:34:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 2:36:27 PM EDT by TBoneDetroit]
Spoke to my FFL/AK builder tonight. He tells me he sometimes suggests guys take the receiver into the police station before building and ask to register it as a pistol prior to even building it. You can tell them what you intend to build on it at that time. They may turn you away, in which case you simply complete the build and return to register (underfolder to be registered would fall between 26 and 30 inches overall, measured at the farthest point, typically on a folding AK from the tip of the muzzel device to the bottom of the grip). He also tells me he's known of certain municipalities to look the other way if the overall measurement is say, 25 and 7/8 inches. Wouldn't count on that though...

Again a caution here..... Just because Michigan registers the receiver as a pistol, does NOT mean you can build an actual AK pistol on just any receiver. The feds have specific guidelines which must be met to build something that falls into their definition of a pistol (AK's can be done, but not on just any AK receiver).

I now return you to your normally scheduled governmental confusion......
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:50:09 AM EDT
I printed off some pages from the gun laws on the MSP website. There is something in there that follows somewhat this problem. It is a letter about a rifle, shotgun, and UZI legalities with folding stocks. One of them had an OAL around 27" when folded and above 30" when open. Going to meet with the Sergeant today again and get this clarified. What is the OAL folded for a Yugo?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:52:37 AM EDT
I met with the Sergeant today. I brought in the info I printed off and showed him the part that pertained to my concerns. He said I can own it and verified it with the MSP headquarters. HOWEVER, it is considered a pistol (already known). Being I am a MN resident, I can't register it (submit it for a safety insection) in MI if I buy the reciever here since I am not a resident. He pointed out on the safety inspection sheet that you must be a resident of MI. So now it seems my only option is have the recievers sent to MN and I'll have to drive and get them transfered to me there. Not a huge deal I guess.

The Sergeant then told to me to call the County Prosecuter's Office and make sure I can bring it in to MI. I said students from MN bring their pistols here and don't need to register them (submit them for a safety check). I asked if it would be the same situation for me. He said that I shoulnd't need to register it as any pistol doesn't need to be registered unless you are a resident of MI. He told me to double check with the County Prosecuter though as he would be the one to make the final call for prosecution. As far as I see it, I'm in the clear as long as I buy it in MN. I will be able to assemble the rifle here in MI since the reciever will be transfered through MN. The reciever is the only part regulated so the assembly of the parts kit shouldn't matter.

I told the Sergeant I would be buying it. I did not tell him I intend to build it as I thought he might become less than helpfull.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:44:22 AM EDT
I spoke with the Houghton County Chief Prosecuting Attorney today. He said I should buy the recievers in MN to avoid any hassles. He said I can bring them here and have no trouble. He said that if a DNR officer sees me with a folding stock in the woods they confiscate first and ask questions later. He said even if I have the paperwork that I bought them in MN I'll end up going through a hassle to get it back. Seems pretty stupid to me.

The next step for me is how do I get the overall length to above 26" folded? I was maybe thinking of finding a Yugo grenade attachment and putting it on. Any thoughts or ideas?
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