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Posted: 9/23/2003 4:34:55 AM EDT
I was at the lapeer pit a few weeks ago and ran into a C&R Liscense holder that was shooting a M16 among other older weapons. I am very interested in acquiring a C&R liscense so I can sink all of my hard earned cash into evil full auto guns. Actually, I am interested in the M3A1 grease gun. Is this gun considered a C&R? What age does a gun have to be to be classified as a C&R? Does anyone have any links or suggestions for more info? Grease Gun prices? .....? Thanks for any advise.

p.s. Live W/in 3miles of the "Pit" and will try to make this weekends clean up effort. I would hate to see this area shut down. The local DNR is now spying on shooters to see who is leaving all the trash. Take what you bring!!!!!!!! Don't ruin it for the world.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 5:47:35 PM EDT
luke2,

To get your c&r licence all you need to do is download the forms from the ATF, fill them out and give them a check for thirty dollars with the forms. also you need to send a letter to the local sherrif saying you are applying for a c&r licence.then after a month goes by you will get a form to fill out stating that you are a U.S. citizen, after you mail that your licence will come in about a month.


M10


Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:28:40 PM EDT
This is where I got all the information when I applied, www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=21b086b6ac428c56deec112a559e5bd7&threadid=33083

I was able to download the necessary forms from there. It is really easy to get the license. The hard part is trying not to blow all your money on all those old but great guns.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:28:44 AM EDT
OK, well first you can send in the citizenship form with the application and save yourself a month. All the ATF froms that can be duplicated are available on www.subguns.com under "Danbrews Forms" They are fillable PDF's.

M3 and M3A1 are both C&R guns if original WWII production and were registered prior to the machine gun ban of 86 or "Firearms Owners Protection Act".....interesting name, wonder how we are being protected by this....anyway....
Expect to pay in excess of $10,000 yes that is TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS, it is one of the more pricy C&R subguns.

Generally, 50 years old is the criteria....there are exceptions such as M1 Thompson made in West Hurley NY in the 1980's and the Tipman .22 belt fed minature Browning's.

C&R License is easy to get but the sign off for the Form 4, that is the registration paper for the purchase of the machine gun, can be a bitch.....ad Lumpy is finding out. Your chief law enforcement officer of your area must "Sign Off" on it......sometimes they don't like to.

Good Luck....start saving your pennies!
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:57:35 AM EDT
What would be the most economical C&R sub gun to get into?
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 4:42:28 PM EDT
the cheapest c&r full auto gun I have see are the reising like lumpy223 is going to get,or a sten.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:08:23 PM EDT
Yep, Reising is the cheapest C&R gun at around $2500 if I remember correctly but ammo and mags are not cheap. There are not many do-dads or parts for them either. Next in line is a toss-up. Used to be a Sten MKII but they are pushing $4000 now if you can find one and well....they aren't much to look at. My personal favorite is a Smith & Wesson Model 76. Mags are dirt cheap right now...$5 and they look modern and run good. Factory parts are non-existant but there is a guy that makes parts for them.

Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:49:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gordie48001:
Yep, Reising is the cheapest C&R gun at around $2500 if I remember correctly but ammo and mags are not cheap. There are not many do-dads or parts for them either. Next in line is a toss-up. Used to be a Sten MKII but they are pushing $4000 now if you can find one and well....they aren't much to look at. My personal favorite is a Smith & Wesson Model 76. Mags are dirt cheap right now...$5 and they look modern and run good. Factory parts are non-existant but there is a guy that makes parts for them.




So, what's the process?

Let's say I have a C&R, do I just find a C&R subgun for sale and then get the paperwork from ATF upon paying? Do I get the paperwork first and then go shopping? What is the seller's respopnsibility?
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 6:58:13 AM EDT
monkeyman......check out my post in this thread www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=14&t=171220
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 5:22:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2003 5:40:05 AM EDT by monkeyman]
Thanks Lumpy, sorry for all the BS you had to go through. I formed a corp once when I did some consulting. It is pretty easy in Michigan, just fill out some forms from the Dept of Commerce and then a DBA with the local county clerk. MI is a corp friendly state. The problem with a corp is that you have to file income tax returns just for the corp even if you don't make any money, and you have to list yourself as an employee of your own corp on your own tax return. It is a bit easier to do today because of tax software like Turbo Tax but it is still a pain to go through all the paperwork every year.

I am pretty sure my local Police Chief would not sign for a machine gun since they won't even sign for a CCW.

I understand that if one can't get a local CLEO, then the county prosecutor could sign and if not them then the ATF would get a federal judge to sign for you.

Also don't underestimate the power of politics. The police chief works for the city, ie. the mayor and/or the city council. Light a fire under a council member about the chief shirking his responsibility and often times they can get results.

Sometimes this can be done by writing a letter to the mayor, chief and city council explaining that you have been given the run around for 6 weeks or so. It makes them look bad. Or bring it up in a council meeting. Ours are on cable tv and the council hates looking like incompentants on TV.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 10:22:38 AM EDT
Well I finally picked up my unsigned forms from the city exactly 6 weeks after I dropped them off. I figured "what the hell" and called the Sheriff back. I told him who I was and that I had taken my forms to the city where they sat for 6 weeks and asked him if he would reconsider signing them. He said yes. I stopped the forming of my corporation and the paperwork is now in the mail on it's way to the ATF. With any luck, maybe I will have my gun by Christmas.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 10:55:12 AM EDT
Lumpy, I am ready to go for it. Got the C&R, some dough and am just looking for some sort of a gun. I am thinking Reising, S&W 76 or some such. If you know of a source let me know.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 1:34:12 PM EDT
lumpy, monkeyman, and to all who replied, thanks for the info. From some of the talk, sounds like the Mayor of the city can help push paper work through. This will help in that my Father-out-law is now the Lapeer city Mayor. I'll be getting the correct forms to the Sherrif soon.
By the way, was at the pit a few weekends ago and witnessed an awesome display of guns. Didn't do any shooting. Just stood around for a few minutes. Wished i knew who was who. any way,if SBR's and silencers are not legal in Mich., how do you go about owning a silenced, short barreled MP5? Or a full-auto UZI? I would go through a lot of trouble to own a UMP. This USC(HK)is great, but it's not the real thing. Where as, i would be sleeping and cuddling with a UMP. Of cours i'd have to because my wife will probably leave me if i spend that kind of money on a gun. Are there ways around these hindering laws? Leagally of course.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:33:01 PM EDT
Unfortunately silencers are not allowed to us in Michigan. The only short barrel rifle you can have has to be a C&R and you have to have the license. Frankly, I am really suprised we can have the full autos.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 6:35:20 PM EDT
Are any M-16's C&R? or do you have to go with a Costa Mesa AR-18?

I see Reisings for sale at Knob Creek and Lomont has some nice C&R guns too. But expensive.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 8:13:31 PM EDT

Are any M-16's C&R?


Yes. This is from the ATF list......


Armalite AR-15, Model 601,.223 cal., mfd. by Colt. Must be marked "Armalite."


The last one I saw for sale was I believe $13,000.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 7:07:34 AM EDT
Lumpy, if silencers and SBR's are not allowed in Mi, than i'm assuming the guys with the MP5/silenced, full auto, shootin at the Lapeer pit, were "special" guys? If so, how do i become one of those "special" guys? There's got to be a way.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 7:17:48 AM EDT
I really dont know. Maybe they were L.E. out playing with their goodies? I don't know what the rules are for manufacturers & class 2 dealers in Michigan. Maybe they were dealers. I was simply basing my answers on what is allowed to holders of the C&R FFL. I guess we need to have Dr Bones check in here, he should be able to answer those kinds of questions.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 8:36:21 AM EDT
thanks for the info lump. i'll stick to the C&R for now. i'll be looking for "dr. bones". i'm really curious how "some" people can have these bad toys and most of us can't. i'd be willing to sign up with the local L.E. just to hold one of those bad boys. The laws suck, but if you can't beat em, join em.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 12:02:31 PM EDT
I think some of those guys are class 3 dealers.

BTW, in looking around I found a C&R Thompson for $12K, which seemed pretty reasonable. Also found a C&R sten gun for $4K.(Didn't they cost like $6.00 to make during WWII?) I see the only advantage of a sten is the gobs of cheap parts and mags available for them.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:03:49 PM EDT
I recently completed my C&R paperwork. I've had some chats with the local LEOs, and did some up front work to make sure that NFA purchases will go smoothly. The only thing they seemed to be worried about in Sterling Heights was me upgrading to a dealer license and someday having zoning problems if I attempt to run a business out of my house.

Anyone you see shooting anything off the C&R list in Michigan is one of the following:

1. Law Enforcement (not likely, they have private places)
2. Out of state with travel paperwork approved by the ATF (unlikely unless you're at a large gathering)
3. 01FFL (dealer) or 02FFL (manufacturer) or perhaps a few others paying the yearly SOT to allow them to deal in NFA product.

3 is probably what you would see. It's a touchy route for the purposes of collection -- paying the SOT under a FFL for the purposes of enhancing your personal collection is a felony, so you need to have some transfers happening periodically, so that's you are officially 'in business'. However, I meet more Class III dealers who want toys than those working to sell them. It's not uncommon and a grey area of sorts that many people participate in. I have not heard of a problem for anyone.

For the cost of an M16 transferrable vs. a C&R eligible M16, you will obviously save money on the transfer-allowed non C&R gun. However, you'll pay for the FFL, you'll have to pay (I think) $500/yr for the SOT, you technically start a business, so you have to be zoned properly, you should have a business phone, web site, etc., file quarterly taxes, etc. After a few years, you would have saved yourself the hassle if you just forked out the cash for the Model 01.

However, if you want an MP5 or anything groovy along those lines, that is your only route.

If what you want is on the C&R list, do yourself a favor and stick with the C&R.

All my opinions! Feel free to correct, I have enough knowledge to be dangerous, and I've been caught being wrong...

-Dan
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 8:41:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 8:44:54 AM EDT by monkeyman]
I had an FFL in Sterling Hts for 20 years, though I just gave it up in June of this year. Got a C&R instead. About 6 years ago I had trouble with ATF renewing it because of zoning laws. It took me 18 months but the city finally changed the laws to allow mail order and computerized retailers to sell from their homes. This of course pertained to FFLs as well and my license arrived within a week.

The downside to a home based FFL is having to get a sales tax license, file buisness tax returns, and complying with all the rules and regulations. etc. Since you agreed to abide by all state, federal and local laws to get your license, not complying isn't simply a violation of the ordinances it is a violation of federal law.

Has anyone had any experience with Sheriff Hackel signing off on NFA weapons in Macomb County? His dad when sheriff, was pretty open about CCWs and such.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 2:53:48 PM EDT
Hey monkeyman.......

Did you ever get the e-mail (or maybe it was an IM) with a list of guns that I sent you?
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 6:22:55 PM EDT
Lumpy, yes I did, thanks. Some were already sold, I am still looking.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 4:57:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2003 5:00:58 AM EDT by gordie48001]
Hey Lumpy, that suppressed MP5 is Jim D's (Dr. Bones), he got his 01 FFL and is a SOT now so he can have all the regular transferrable stuff. Jim's side kick Keith and the other guy that is out there Phil all have an 01 and SOT. The UZI is Keith's and Phil has a pre-sample 1919a4 on transfer. I'm still just a lowly C&R, my city says no to the 01 FFL.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:52:51 AM EDT
Anybody try sending a letter to the CLEO in advance to clue him in on the signature requirement? I would think a letter explaining the process in advance might help grease the skids a bit.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 11:10:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2003 11:11:15 AM EDT by gordie48001]
Yep, a buddy called ahead on his form 4 and it went pretty well. He is a regular in the PD though and knows everyone in the office so that probably had much to do with it. I believe that was in Shelby Twp.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:42:45 AM EDT
I talked with the Sherriffs Dept. before I sent the money out for my gun. I was told "bring the paperwork in and we should be able to accommodate you, no problem".

The problem I had was a political one. Once the Sherriff saw I was a city resident, he said I had to take it to the city.

It took me 2 months to finally get a signature but I got it. My advice would be to make sure the Sherriff knows in advance exactly where you live if he agrees beforehand to sign. I was this close >< to having to form a corporation.

monkeyman.....you find something you are interested in yet?
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 6:38:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy223:


monkeyman.....you find something you are interested in yet?



I'm interesting in lots of things, rationalizing the cost is something else. I really would like either a sten or a S&W 76 because of the cost of the ammo, but I've backed off to re-evaluate.

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