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Posted: 9/29/2005 7:21:32 AM EDT
Does anyone know if I must have the C&R pistol shipped to a 01 FFL dealer even if I have a 03 FFL (C&R)?

I.e.

I live in MI, have a 03 FFL (C&R license) and want to buy a C&R Luger online from a vendor that has my 03 FFL on file.

Can they ship the Luger directly to me?
If so, do I need a purchase permit from the CLEO?
If so, how do I fill out the seller section? Am I selling it to myself?

I understand registration is still required if I want to shoot the pistol at a range?

Michigan State Police was totally useless in answering my questions.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 8:11:13 AM EDT
I'm not a lawyer, so all of this is strictly opinion.

First of all, they will (or should) ship it directly to you.

Second, If you do register it, you can fill it out as tho you are selling it to yourself.

Third, regarding the need to register it....


S 28.422 License To purchase, carry, or transport pistol.

Sec 2
(7)"This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale or barter, or exchange of pistols kept solely as relics, curios, or antiques not made for modern ammunition or permanantly deactivated..."



Here is how I see it....

The law says you don't need a permit to purchase for the 'sale or barter, or exchange of pistols kept SOLELY as relics, curios or antiques..

That means if you buy, barter, or exchange a pistol that is to be kept as only a curio or relic you don't need a green card. Once you shoot it, it is clear that it was not purchased to be a curio or relic but rather a firearm that would require safety inspection.

This backs up what the MSP told me when I inquired about it. Basically they see it as if you purchase one of these 'curios' its a curio, not a firearm that is intended for use. Once you shoot it, you no longer have a curio but rather a firearm.

Its somewhat confusing, but what you have to remember is that there is a difference between what MI law refers to as a curio:

Noun

* S: (n) curio, curiosity, oddity, oddment, peculiarity, rarity (something unusual -- perhaps worthy of collecting)

and a list of guns the ATF maintains are curios and relics. Michigan doesn't care what the ATF says per se. They see it as a decision of whether you are purchasing a curio or you are purchasing a pistol (regardless of how old it is) eventhough the same item shows up on your doorstep.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 8:17:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 8:17:52 AM EDT by metroplex]
I despise the concept of registration but would not have a problem registering it. I do plan to shoot it.
I'm concerned that I would need to obtain a license to purchase prior to receiving the pistol. From what everyone seems to hav edone is just have the C&R pistol shipped to your door, then take it to the CLEO for registration.

They will probably make me fill out a license to purchase and cough up the $5 on the spot, then register the pistol, does this sound about right? As long as I don't have to go to a FFL for this, I'll be satisfied.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 9:00:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 9:01:32 AM EDT by bump0x]

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I despise the concept of registration but would not have a problem registering it. I do plan to shoot it.
I'm concerned that I would need to obtain a license to purchase prior to receiving the pistol. From what everyone seems to hav edone is just have the C&R pistol shipped to your door, then take it to the CLEO for registration.

They will probably make me fill out a license to purchase and cough up the $5 on the spot, then register the pistol, does this sound about right? As long as I don't have to go to a FFL for this, I'll be satisfied.



You can do it too ways. Depends on what your local PD is like.... Some people buy the pistol from the wholesaler, receive it, walk into the PD with the pistol and take care of everything then and there.

Other people make two trips. They go in, get a permit to purchase, go home and fill it all out, and return to the PD for 'safety inspection'. If you think your PD might flip out because you walk in the door with a pistol you never got a permit to purchase for, then go the two trip route.

Regardless of method, you don't need to get the permit to purchase beforehand, but you can if you want. /shrug
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 10:59:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 11:01:20 AM EDT by scoutmaster]
bump0x

Did you get my return IM?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 12:23:49 PM EDT
You can receive the pistol just cant shoot it until its registerd.....I also thought that their was a form you could fill out and just send it in, but I could be completely wrong with that. Also if you take the pistol to the PD to register it and get your green card, I would also take a copy of myy 03 FFL with just in case they want to know how you got the gun with out a green card.

Ant
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 7:06:27 AM EDT
Update:

I talked to Debra Smith from MSP (517-322-5548) regarding this issue.
According to her, a license to purchase (aka purchase permit) IS required for all pistols (unless it is exempt: made on/before 1898) even if you have a C&R license.

So for instance, you want a CZ-52 and you have a C&R license.
You must first obtain the license to purchase and mail it to the seller/vendor along with a copy of your C&R and have them fill out the rest and mail it back to you along with the pistol. Then you'd get the pistol registered as usual.

Now here's the interesting question:
What happens if I don't bother with the purchase permit? Well, according to Debra, the registering agency (aka CLEO) may confiscate the pistol because it was obtained "illegally" under Michigan law, or they may require you to fill out the permit on the spot.

My CLEO now charges $5 for purchase permits. Registration is still "free"
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:27:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Update:

I talked to Debra Smith from MSP (517-322-5548) regarding this issue.
According to her, a license to purchase (aka purchase permit) IS required for all pistols (unless it is exempt: made on/before 1898) even if you have a C&R license.

So for instance, you want a CZ-52 and you have a C&R license.
You must first obtain the license to purchase and mail it to the seller/vendor along with a copy of your C&R and have them fill out the rest and mail it back to you along with the pistol. Then you'd get the pistol registered as usual.

Now here's the interesting question:
What happens if I don't bother with the purchase permit? Well, according to Debra, the registering agency (aka CLEO) may confiscate the pistol because it was obtained "illegally" under Michigan law, or they may require you to fill out the permit on the spot.

My CLEO now charges $5 for purchase permits. Registration is still "free" hinking.gif



Are you purchasing the pistol from a MI dealer or from out of state? If out of state, a green purchase card isn't going to make a difference to the seller is it? All they are going to need is a copy of your C&R FFL, right? You should call back and talk to Sissy. I can almost guarantee that you will get a significantly different answer.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:39:46 AM EDT
I told her the vendor was out of state (Internet), and she said unless the C&R pistol falls under an exempt pistol, the license to purchase (permit) is still needed.

It doesn't make sense, and it will take about 4-5 days on average to ship out the Purchase permit and to get the pistol w/ the completed permit back to your house. That's cutting it close...
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:13:52 AM EDT
Something still sounds off to me. A MI purchase permit is meaningless to an out-of-state dealer. That is what your C&R FFL is for. You need to get a CPL and be done with the hassle of purchase permits and the various fees some agencies charge for them.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:25:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 10:29:24 AM EDT by metroplex]
I called her again and asked regarding (specifically this time) out of state purchases.

Her response was that State Law still requires a license to purchase unless the pistol is exempt, regardless of whether it is an in-state or out-of-state purchase.

What this seems to mean is that even if you have a C&R, you still need to get a permit beforehand, mail it to the vendor, have them ship it signed along with the pistol to your house, and you must bring the permit + pistol to the CLEO for registration.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:42:44 AM EDT
When you get the permit I would ship it second day air and have the seller fill it out. Being that it is a pistol he will have to ship it via next day air. Make sure he knows to ship it promptly and you should be good to get it done within the ten days.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:31:58 AM EDT
That just adds up the cost... I'd rather spend a little more and just get a new pistol if there is so much hassle involved.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:51:24 PM EDT
Are there any other C&R dealers around that can chime in? Once you add in the cost and inconvenience of getting the purchase permit and air shipping things back and forth, you would probably be much better off just having it shipped into a regular FFL dealer and paying a $15 transfer fee.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 4:18:33 AM EDT
You can fill out the form RI-10 Permit to Purchase yourself.
The real importance of that form is that you record all of the information accurately and the YOUR signature is notarized.
The seller doesn't sign it. He just fills in the blanks. Do it yourself.
Since the seller is out of state, he doesn't need a copy. Throw the seller copy out.
No need to make this more complex than it has to be.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 4:43:03 AM EDT
I see what you're saying and that is what I asked the MSP, if I could fill out the seller portion myself. Her response was no, it must be sent to the actual seller of the pistol.

It seems to me that there is no uniform understanding of this law, so it'll be loosely interpreted. It will take only 1 person who interprets it the "wrong" way to screw up your day.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 1:50:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 1:56:50 PM EDT by JDemond]
The C&R license, is an FFL license. The only difference is, you can only buy guns that are 50 years old or older, or on the BATF C&R list. Also you can't use the license to conduct business.

You don't think Michigan makes regular FFL's sent out a purchase permit, do you?
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 4:09:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JDemond:
The C&R license, is an FFL license. The only difference is, you can only buy guns that are 50 years old or older, or on the BATF C&R list. Also you can't use the license to conduct business.

You don't think Michigan makes regular FFL's sent out a purchase permit, do you?



01 FFLs do not fall under this requirement because of the nature of their business/license.

Michigan does not give a rat's ass what the BATFE considers a C&R. Michigan's idea of an antique firearm is one that is made on or before 1898.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 8:15:12 PM EDT
If that pistol is just for a collection you dont need a Permit since it's just going to stay in a safe or cabinet and you have it logged in your bound book....if you want to shoot it then you will have to register it. PERIOD!

I would stop posting on this section about this and I would go and ask at a C&R forum and they will set you straight.....since their will be folks from MI that will walk you through the process!

BTW if a 01 FFL buys a pistol to sell than no pistol permit, but if he is going to use it for personal use than permit is needed.....Dont call the MSP since you have some clerk answering the phone, hell if it is even a LEO they dont even know all the rules! Since I bet if you had a CCW and got pulled over with a Underfolder AK loaded in your vehicle they would try and take you to jail, since the wouldn't know that it was considerd a Pistol

Ant
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:08:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 4:08:57 AM EDT by metroplex]
Hi!

1). I posted this in the C&R Forum and got ZERO bites.
2). Debra Smith is THE firearms person to talk to at MSP. She is not a desk clerk.
3). A 03 FFL (C&R) is not a license to conduct business, therefore under MI law, you're buying a C&R pistol for the purpose of collecting/shooting (this is how it appears to be interpreted) so you must obtain a permit unless the pistol is exempt or you have a CCW. That is how it appears to be interpreted at MSP. She even mentioned that if I had it shipped to my house (under BATFE regs its "OK") w/o getting a permit, it would have been obtained "illegally" under MI law.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 11:51:54 AM EDT
Here's the thread in the C&R forum if you want to chime in:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=14&t=188544
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 2:51:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Hi!

1). I posted this in the C&R Forum and got ZERO bites.
2). Debra Smith is THE firearms person to talk to at MSP. She is not a desk clerk.
3). A 03 FFL (C&R) is not a license to conduct business, therefore under MI law, you're buying a C&R pistol for the purpose of collecting/shooting (this is how it appears to be interpreted) so you must obtain a permit unless the pistol is exempt or you have a CCW. That is how it appears to be interpreted at MSP. She even mentioned that if I had it shipped to my house (under BATFE regs its "OK") w/o getting a permit, it would have been obtained "illegally" under MI law. hinking.gif




I`m an 01/FFL in mi. ,heres what you do, you can get the pistol on your C&R and if you dont intend to shoot it then it does not have to be registered, if you want to register it, get a purchase permitt from your local PD, the buyer would be the seller also, which is you, take the purchase permitt, your C&R lic and your pistol to the PD, they`ll be confused at first but they`ll figure it out
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:22:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By roach46:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Hi!

1). I posted this in the C&R Forum and got ZERO bites.
2). Debra Smith is THE firearms person to talk to at MSP. She is not a desk clerk.
3). A 03 FFL (C&R) is not a license to conduct business, therefore under MI law, you're buying a C&R pistol for the purpose of collecting/shooting (this is how it appears to be interpreted) so you must obtain a permit unless the pistol is exempt or you have a CCW. That is how it appears to be interpreted at MSP. She even mentioned that if I had it shipped to my house (under BATFE regs its "OK") w/o getting a permit, it would have been obtained "illegally" under MI law.




I`m an 01/FFL in mi. ,heres what you do, you can get the pistol on your C&R and if you dont intend to shoot it then it does not have to be registered, if you want to register it, get a purchase permitt from your local PD, the buyer would be the seller also, which is you, take the purchase permitt, your C&R lic and your pistol to the PD, they`ll be confused at first but they`ll figure it out



I'd use the above approach... The LEO's are just as confused as you or more. Act like you know what you are doing and no problems will arrise.

When they changed the law to require the registering of black powder pistols in MI, I took my 1860 Colt to the local station and had to walk them through the sequence of events that caused me to have an unregistered pistol that I was now trying to register.

Similarly, there was a member here who registered his colapsible stock AK-47 as a pistol so he could legally carry it under his CCW. The lawmakers in their wisdom had declared rifles under a certian length in MI were pistols. He walked the police through the proceedure that followed the letter of the law. Now he has a rifle he can carry as a CCW even though MI CCW was intended to only apply to pistols.

Kent
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 7:09:26 PM EDT
The C&R only allows you to receive the pistol in commerce directly. Nothing more. It is not a license to do business whatsoever. Now that you can get the pistol deliverd to your door under your license, that takes care of the delivery part. The next question is what does state law say about its possession. It says you must obtain a permit to purchase and a safety inspection. So err on the smart side. Go get the permit to purchase and then order the pistol. When you get it, log it into you bound book and keep the dealers copy of the green permit in you book. Take the other two copys of the permit and the pistol encased to your PD and let them do the safety inspection and issue you the green card. You are the seller and the buyer. Carry a copy of your C&R license if they don't know what to do. But don't just keep the gun and say its a curio. The MSP are right on the law as far as possession of a pistol is concerned. Noone likes it, but you will like being the test case even less.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 8:05:02 PM EDT
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