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Posted: 9/17/2009 12:03:59 PM EST
Im from NJ and i have a Nj firearm identification card but i would like to purchase an AR in WV or PA. has anyone done this?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:13:05 PM EST
You can. Be sure it's NJ legal first.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:21:20 PM EST
the ars im looking at have colapsable stocks. is it illegal for me to purchase one from pa with a colapsable stock and not bring it to nj and just pin the stock before i bring it back to nj?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:23:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
You can. Be sure it's NJ legal first.

There is nothing (except an ill-informed FFL) to prevent you from buying an non-ban-compliant AR elsewhere, just don't bring it into a ban state or risk going to prison.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:25:14 PM EST
The AR must be in New Jersey legal configuration before it comes into the state. You can buy it, but don't bring it across the border until it is post ban. There can't be a flash hider, if you have a muzzle brake or comp it needs to be permanently installed, the bayonet lug must be removed, the mag can't hold more than 15 rounds, and the stock must be fixed. If you can do all this before coming back to NJ, go for it.

If I am wrong, somebody chime in.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:22:00 PM EST
DO yourself a favor first. Find a NJ FFL that is willing to make a pre-ban into a post ban configuration. That way if you find one you really like that might be pre-ban, you can have the dealer do what is necessary to make it NJ compliant before he gives it to you. It beats the hell out of going on a scavenger hunt in a state that mostly carries pre-ban weapons.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:25:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
The AR must be in New Jersey legal configuration before it comes into the state. You can buy it, but don't bring it across the border until it is post ban. There can't be a flash hider, if you have a muzzle brake or comp it needs to be permanently installed, the bayonet lug must be removed, the mag can't hold more than 15 rounds, and the stock must be fixed. If you can do all this before coming back to NJ, go for it.

If I am wrong, somebody chime in.


Most dealers wont let you buy a pre ban out of state unless they converted it themselves before selling it to you. They cant trust someone who says "oh ill make sure i convert it before i cross the border" because if they dont and they get caught, they will trace it back to where they bought it from and that dealers gets into a whole lot of trouble.

But shit if the dealer sells it to you as preban........

Alot of out of state dealers DO NOT know NJ laws. Ive met ALOT of dealers from CT, DE, VA etc who would have sold me prebans. I had to explain to them what our situation was and they were like huh? WTF?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:01:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 7:07:29 PM EST by 240shwag]
Originally Posted By ZEROTHOMAS:
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
The AR must be in New Jersey legal configuration before it comes into the state. You can buy it, but don't bring it across the border until it is post ban. There can't be a flash hider, if you have a muzzle brake or comp it needs to be permanently installed, the bayonet lug must be removed, the mag can't hold more than 15 rounds, and the stock must be fixed. If you can do all this before coming back to NJ, go for it.

If I am wrong, somebody chime in.


Most dealers wont let you buy a pre ban out of state unless they converted it themselves before selling it to you. They cant trust someone who says "oh ill make sure i convert it before i cross the border" because if they dont and they get caught, they will trace it back to where they bought it from and that dealers gets into a whole lot of trouble.

But shit if the dealer sells it to you as preban........

Alot of out of state dealers DO NOT know NJ laws. Ive met ALOT of dealers from CT, DE, VA etc who would have sold me prebans. I had to explain to them what our situation was and they were like huh? WTF?


I wouldn't put much faith in this. Its at the dealers discretion. The purchaser of the firearm is in control of staying within the law, not the dealer in a state where everything was perfectly legal. If that were true, then getting a collasable stock, a front sight with a bayonet lug, and a flash hider shipped to NJ in the same box would be impossible. Your telling me the dealer selling those items is going to be jailed for mailing them to me if I construct an "assault weapon" from them?

For instance. Lets say I live in NJ and own a property in FL. I could buy a preban AR in FL with a NJ drivers liscense to prove my age and identity and keep the firearm at my property in FL. That seems well within the law to me and so would converting the firearm to abide NJ laws if I ever wanted to bring it back.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:28:04 PM EST
I believe it would be illegal for a PA FFL to sell a pre-ban AR to an NJ resident, because 18 USC 922(b)(3) states that a licensee (FFL) may transfer a rifle or shotgun to a non-licensee resident of any other state, so long as the "sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both states". It further states that it is assumed the FFL doing the transfer knows the laws of both states.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:54:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tom488:
I believe it would be illegal for a PA FFL to sell a pre-ban AR to an NJ resident, because 18 USC 922(b)(3) states that a licensee (FFL) may transfer a rifle or shotgun to a non-licensee resident of any other state, so long as the "sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both states". It further states that it is assumed the FFL doing the transfer knows the laws of both states.



The FFL only needs to abide by the laws of the 2 states regarding the sale, which deals with the qualifications of the buyer.
The legality of the possession of the firearm in the buyer's home state is not a concern of the selling FFL.
That one's on the buyer when he crosses the border back into his home state.

The NJ statutes do not say what you cannot buy, just what you cannot possess in NJ
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:54:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 9:01:40 PM EST by 240shwag]
I read a lttle more at 922 and it seems he is right. BATF transportation laws get in the way of this and make it illegal.

922 is not written like that though. Only things you CANNOT do are on there and the exceptions.

Here is an exert from it;

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a
place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of
business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not
apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a
resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's
place of business is located if the transferee meets in person
with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale,
delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of
sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer
or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph,
in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual
knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both
States).



Its pretty much cut and dry after you read it like seventeen times. The only way you could aquire an AR type firearm from an out of state FFL, is if that FFL read and understood all of NJ firearms laws and agreed that it is indeed legal. I believe I saw an exception there for frames and receivers, but I didn't read much of it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 2:20:26 AM EST
Nothing for nothing but why go through all that crap when you can just buy a PRNJ legal AR here and be done with it?
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 2:29:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By njJoniGuy:

The FFL only needs to abide by the laws of the 2 states regarding the sale, which deals with the qualifications of the buyer.
The legality of the possession of the firearm in the buyer's home state is not a concern of the selling FFL.
That one's on the buyer when he crosses the border back into his home state.

The NJ statutes do not say what you cannot buy, just what you cannot possess in NJ

+100
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:05:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By njJoniGuy:
Originally Posted By Tom488:
I believe it would be illegal for a PA FFL to sell a pre-ban AR to an NJ resident, because 18 USC 922(b)(3) states that a licensee (FFL) may transfer a rifle or shotgun to a non-licensee resident of any other state, so long as the "sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both states". It further states that it is assumed the FFL doing the transfer knows the laws of both states.



The FFL only needs to abide by the laws of the 2 states regarding the sale, which deals with the qualifications of the buyer.
The legality of the possession of the firearm in the buyer's home state is not a concern of the selling FFL.
That one's on the buyer when he crosses the border back into his home state.

The NJ statutes do not say what you cannot buy, just what you cannot possess in NJ


Exactly.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:09:43 AM EST
If you go to a reputable dealer they will guide you. Depending on where you are in NJ I'd recommend a trip to Tanners Sport Center in Jamison, PA. All knowledgable guys, and no attitudes. I bought my Post-Ban Bushmaster from them at a fair price when everyone else was marking them up through the roof.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:20:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 3:26:04 AM EST by 240shwag]
Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By njJoniGuy:

The FFL only needs to abide by the laws of the 2 states regarding the sale, which deals with the qualifications of the buyer.
The legality of the possession of the firearm in the buyer's home state is not a concern of the selling FFL.
That one's on the buyer when he crosses the border back into his home state.

The NJ statutes do not say what you cannot buy, just what you cannot possess in NJ

+100


-100, according to the BATF. Your an FFL too man...

I could see if it has a target crown and a gas block but a collapsable stock. Just bring a drill and a roll pin.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 3:39:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By 240shwag:
.............. (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States).

Its pretty much cut and dry after you read it like seventeen times . The only way you could aquire an AR type firearm from an out of state FFL, is if that FFL read and understood all of NJ firearms laws and agreed that it is indeed legal. I believe I saw an exception there for frames and receivers, but I didn't read much of it.

Where does it say that the dealer must be sure that the possession in your home state is legal.

Do you agree that you as a NJ resident can own firearms that are not legal to possess in NJ? You must keep them out-of-state? Well, how do you exactly acquire them?
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 4:30:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 4:44:04 AM EST by 240shwag]
Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By 240shwag:
.............. (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States).

Its pretty much cut and dry after you read it like seventeen times. The only way you could aquire an AR type firearm from an out of state FFL, is if that FFL read and understood all of NJ firearms laws and agreed that it is indeed legal. I believe I saw an exception there for frames and receivers, but I didn't read much of it.

Where does it say that the dealer must be sure that the possession in your home state is legal.

Do you agree that you as a NJ resident can own firearms that are not legal to possess in NJ? You must keep them out-of-state? Well, how do you exactly acquire them?


An FFL in NJ cannot sell a banned weapon to a NJ resident. That would be a NJ state law correct? Read the part in the quotations.

I really think we need to make some phone calls or send some letters to the ATF.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 4:47:31 AM EST
Where does it say that the dealer must be sure that the possession in your home state is legal.

Where it says the sale, delivery, and receipt must comply with the laws of both states. I'm interpreting "receipt" as "possession".
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 4:55:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 5:02:35 AM EST by 240shwag]
Originally Posted By Tom488:
Where does it say that the dealer must be sure that the possession in your home state is legal.

Where it says the sale, delivery, and receipt must comply with the laws of both states. I'm interpreting "receipt" as "possession".


Not to mention that "sale" generally means "dispose" or to change posession. If you were to buy something and not receive anything, well thats not much of a sale now is it?

Thats why you have to show your FFID card and make the dealer fill out a NJ certificate of eligibility when buying out of state, so long as it complies with NJ AWB and the firearms are transported properly. I have heard of this before.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 7:19:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By ZEROTHOMAS:
DO yourself a favor first. Find a NJ FFL that is willing to make a pre-ban into a post ban configuration. That way if you find one you really like that might be pre-ban, you can have the dealer do what is necessary to make it NJ compliant before he gives it to you. It beats the hell out of going on a scavenger hunt in a state that mostly carries pre-ban weapons.


Fully agree with this.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 8:33:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By 240shwag:

An FFL in NJ cannot sell a banned weapon to a NJ resident. That would be a NJ state law correct? Read the part in the quotations.

I really think we need to make some phone calls or send some letters to the ATF.
Correct, because the possession would be illegal in NJ. There would be no illegal possession in the other state that this thread is all about.

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 9:12:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By 240shwag:

An FFL in NJ cannot sell a banned weapon to a NJ resident. That would be a NJ state law correct? Read the part in the quotations.

I really think we need to make some phone calls or send some letters to the ATF.
Correct, because the possession would be illegal in NJ. There would be no illegal possession in the other state that this thread is all about.



True, however, if you cannot prove to the FFL you have a residence in the state your buying it from, what exactly would one be doing with the firearm when you went back home(figuring nothing would be converted). Thats what makes this illegal.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 10:51:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By 240shwag:
Originally Posted By PK90:

Originally Posted By 240shwag:

An FFL in NJ cannot sell a banned weapon to a NJ resident. That would be a NJ state law correct? Read the part in the quotations.

I really think we need to make some phone calls or send some letters to the ATF.
Correct, because the possession would be illegal in NJ. There would be no illegal possession in the other state that this thread is all about.



True, however, if you cannot prove to the FFL you have a residence in the state your buying it from, what exactly would one be doing with the firearm when you went back home(figuring nothing would be converted). Thats what makes this illegal.


....perhaps leave it at my camp in Bradford county Pa. along with my 30rd mags, bayonet lug, fun switch,flash hider and the shoulder thingy that goes up. Just sayin' Have a great weekend boys!!!


RG

Link Posted: 9/19/2009 7:15:09 AM EST
Sounds to me like everyone has their own interpretation to this question

PK90 has never given me a wrong answer and his along with a few others makes sense to me! Hey if you don't feel comfortable don't buy it. I'm sure someone else will be happy to purchase it for their own collection
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 9:12:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By xtreme327:
Sounds to me like everyone has their own interpretation to this question

PK90 has never given me a wrong answer and his along with a few others makes sense to me! Hey if you don't feel comfortable don't buy it. I'm sure someone else will be happy to purchase it for their own collection


Theres a first time for everything compadre.
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