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Posted: 12/12/2016 12:38:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2016 12:38:49 PM EST by Lancelot]
I think with the new Calif. Assault Weapon/Compliant Rifle laws going into effect next year, maybe there should be a topic on Compliant and what that means legal wise (as far as can be determined at this time). I have been looking into different types of stocks, grips, etc. Have a couple on order because it is not clear which ones will pass the states muster. And, these days that is important. What do you out there think?
Link Posted: 12/6/2016 8:03:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/6/2016 8:05:00 AM EST by Hollywood_Shooter]
There haven't been any test cases, so there is no way of knowing what the CADOJ will be appeased by...with the exception of a few grip or stock manufacturers that actually have a DOJ compliance letter.

If you search around on here, there are already a number of threads (several started by me) discussing these issues.   There are also very lengthy threads on this subject over at CALGUNS.net

Meanwhile, if you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to take a stab at them.  I have half a dozen featureless builds.
Link Posted: 12/6/2016 7:37:42 PM EST
I have ordered a couple of grips, one is basically what looks like a pistol grip cut off at the bottom of the trigger guard. So, you can get your thumb in place almost like a pistol grip, except there is nothing to grab except the web of your hand and the trigger finger fits. I can not see how they can call it a pistol grip as nothing extends below the trigger guard. Only if they declare the thumb is now in a dangerous location.
The other grip is angled at I think is a 40 degree angle, so they "think" it can not be declared a pistol grip. Have not received either yet, will have to see.
Link Posted: 12/6/2016 9:19:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/6/2016 9:21:57 PM EST by Hollywood_Shooter]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
I have ordered a couple of grips, one is basically what looks like a pistol grip cut off at the bottom of the trigger guard. So, you can get your thumb in place almost like a pistol grip, except there is nothing to grab except the web of your hand and the trigger finger fits. I can not see how they can call it a pistol grip as nothing extends below the trigger guard. Only if they declare the thumb is now in a dangerous location.
The other grip is angled at I think is a 40 degree angle, so they "think" it can not be declared a pistol grip. Have not received either yet, will have to see.
View Quote

Yup...I've seen both of those.  I forget what the short stubby one is called.  If it's the one I'm thinking about it has kind of like a camera flash hot shoe attachment so if you're in a free state you can slide the remainder of the grip into it?  But the swept back one sounds like you got the 'monsterman grip', which is also nice.   I went with home made kydex fins wrapped around standard grips.  Yes, it is below the trigger guard, but there is no way to use a "webbed" grip, hence no way to use it as a "pistol grip".  As for it being conspicuously below the trigger guard ...well...if the day comes, my lawyer will argue what is and what is not conspicuous.


Knifekits.com, a site sponsor here, will sell you a 12"x12" sheet of black kydex for a few bucks.  You can make two wrap fins from 1-sheet.  It's far more cost effective if you have a lot of rifles to make featureless.
Link Posted: 12/6/2016 10:30:13 PM EST
One grip is from Ledesma Arms, the other is from support@sbproductsinc.com. I only need one to be legal in Cali. and seem to be user friendly. I have held the hard wrap around thing, but just can not seem to get into it. Of course, if it is the only option besides moving.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 1:02:34 AM EST
I just got the grip that looks like a standard pistol grip, cut off at the bottom of the trigger guard. Even though it does not extend down like a pistol grip it allows a grip not too far off from the standard one. Have not shot with it, but expect it to work pretty well. Now have to wait to see what the Kalifornia DOJ tries to do to it.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 1:27:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
One grip is from Ledesma Arms, the other is from support@sbproductsinc.com. I only need one to be legal in Cali. and seem to be user friendly. I have held the hard wrap around thing, but just can not seem to get into it. Of course, if it is the only option besides moving.
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OK -- neither of those are the ones I was thinking about.   I had seen the spur before, but hadn't heard of Ledesma Arms.  Whatever floats your boat is fine with me, as long as you don't have to register.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 5:04:49 PM EST
Oh, I still have to register each AR, just do want to have them registered as an assault weapon. So, I will have to register them as a featureless rifle. One other thing is what ever a specific (by serial#) rifle is classified as, it has to stay that way forever, in any state. So, if one is classed as a featureless rifle and then one moves to a state that allows AR's, it can not be changed back to the original AR status.
The spur seems pretty neat, just not as much of a grip, but pretty close to the old AR feeling. I installed ambi. selectors because I was thinking I would have to go with one of the webbed things, but the spur allows the thumb to operate just like it always did. I think I will go back to the stock way again because the selector on the right side brushes against my trigger finger. Still have one more possible solution to arrive, but unless it is fantastic think I will stay with the spur.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 7:25:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/8/2016 7:26:23 PM EST by Hollywood_Shooter]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
Oh, I still have to register each AR, just do want to have them registered as an assault weapon. So, I will have to register them as a featureless rifle. One other thing is what ever a specific (by serial#) rifle is classified as, it has to stay that way forever, in any state. So, if one is classed as a featureless rifle and then one moves to a state that allows AR's, it can not be changed back to the original AR status.
The spur seems pretty neat, just not as much of a grip, but pretty close to the old AR feeling. I installed ambi. selectors because I was thinking I would have to go with one of the webbed things, but the spur allows the thumb to operate just like it always did. I think I will go back to the stock way again because the selector on the right side brushes against my trigger finger. Still have one more possible solution to arrive, but unless it is fantastic think I will stay with the spur.
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I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure where you're getting this information, and I think you're misinformed.

Are these rifles built from 80% lowers?  If not, there is no need for any further registration of a featureless rifle in CA.   Further, I have never heard, read, or otherwise been made aware that once a rifle is made featureless in CA, it can't go back to a full featured rifle in a free state.  Are you confusing the non-conversion of a pistol lower to a rifle lower with featureless builds?  If so, these are separate issues.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 11:38:15 PM EST
I am not missing out on details. on Calif. DOJ law changes on Jan 1. 2017. By Jan 1, 2018, all AR type guns have to be declared in Calif. One way or the other, check the current laws out, or rather impending laws. It doesn't seem to be "unclear". With a flash hider,pistol grip, folding stock, or detachable mags, it all matters in Kalifornia. Check it out on the web after 2018 laws.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 12:35:32 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
I am not missing out on details. on Calif. DOJ law changes on Jan 1. 2017. By Jan 1, 2018, all AR type guns have to be declared in Calif. One way or the other, check the current laws out, or rather impending laws. It doesn't seem to be "unclear". With a flash hider,pistol grip, folding stock, or detachable mags, it all matters in Kalifornia. Check it out on the web after 2018 laws.
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I've read the new legislation several times.  I've seen nothing that requires registration of featureless rifles, nor do I see anything that specifies how a featureless build can or can not be modified once outside the state of CA.   How would CA DOJ even enforce what you do outside of their state?

Please feel free to post the relevant passages, as I'm happy to be (re)educated.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 11:27:56 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
I am not missing out on details. on Calif. DOJ law changes on Jan 1. 2017. By Jan 1, 2018, all AR type guns have to be declared in Calif. One way or the other, check the current laws out, or rather impending laws. It doesn't seem to be "unclear". With a flash hider,pistol grip, folding stock, or detachable mags, it all matters in Kalifornia. Check it out on the web after 2018 laws.
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I think what you possibly meant was that the new laws require registration of all rifles that are "Assault Weapons", not all AR rifles.

The entire point of changing grips, and eliminating other features that CA-DOJ considers to be "evil", is to create a "featureless" rifle.  An AR that is featureless is NOT an AW, therefore does not fall into the requirements of the new laws for registration.  Further, a featureless AR, not being an AW, can have a standard magazine release --- although will still be limited to 10-round magazines under new laws.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 11:35:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/9/2016 11:43:16 AM EST by a1bigtuna]
I am being told that by two different gun stores here in San Diego. I will go back and look for some of the stuff I have read and check. One place is San Diego Gun Graphics 619 251 1363. Was told that the gun serial # is to be registered with the DOJ and so the serial will follow what ever classification it is at the end of 2017. And if it is considered as an AR assault weapon, there restrictions on even traveling with it. Unlike a featureless gun. So far no positive documentation on which grip replacements are legal or not. Means we have no clue until they get around to publishing it. And, right now, you cannot register a gun (meaning the 80% build) with the DOJ and send in the $20 fee, because they have not developed that program yet. It is a mess.

One thing I don't think I mentioned is I am talking about the 80% guns that do not exist within the system. Not talking about AR's that are already transferred through an FFL. We had to have a serial # and several lines etched on the lowers (serial # can be anything you come up with) I used to just have an AR that was not registered and no serial #. Now it has that etched in.

I have no idea about those existing guns. Except now I have to get rid of my mini-14 high cap mags before the end of the year.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 12:03:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
I am being told that by two different gun stores here in San Diego. I will go back and look for some of the stuff I have read and check. One place is San Diego Gun Graphics 619 251 1363. Was told that the gun serial # is to be registered with the DOJ and so the serial will follow what ever classification it is at the end of 2017. And if it is considered as an AR assault weapon, there restrictions on even traveling with it. Unlike a featureless gun. So far no positive documentation on which grip replacements are legal or not. Means we have no clue until they get around to publishing it. And, right now, you cannot register a gun (meaning the 80% build) with the DOJ and send in the $20 fee, because they have not developed that program yet. It is a mess.

One thing I don't think I mentioned is I am talking about the 80% guns that do not exist within the system. Not talking about AR's that are already transferred through an FFL. We had to have a serial # and several lines etched on the lowers (serial # can be anything you come up with) I used to just have an AR that was not registered and no serial #. Now it has that etched in.

I have no idea about those existing guns. Except now I have to get rid of my mini-14 high cap mags before the end of the year.
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Day One:  You hear a lot of BS in gun stores.

But yes, if you are registering an "assault weapon" with the CADOJ, they will note the serial #.   And yes, if you have a AR-lower that was built up from an 80% lower, under the new law you are required to serialize it and register that serial #.  This however is not the same thing as AW registration, since the 80% lower could for example have been used to build a pistol that is configured with a patriot release, and no other evil features, and is therefore not an AW.



Link Posted: 12/9/2016 2:11:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/9/2016 5:31:20 PM EST by a1bigtuna]
I should have mentioned first I was talking about only the 80% things. I do not want to split my upper just to change a mag, which is why I am going with grips (that I hope turn out to be legal) that seem close to the original form. I don't mind a fixed stock as I always shoot extended
, just makes it a bit more to transport, barely. The flash suppressor does not matter to me as I will not be doing any night shooting any more (in my 70's). I just don't like the fact that what was legal will become illegal, after the fact. So, if I just have to hold it a little differently all will still be okay. I just do not want me to be on a list of "assault weapons" . What seems goofy to me is that the bullet button will not be used now, what also is strange is I cannot get used to using something to drop a mag, after several years of AR use. When I was only using an M-16 normal mag release for two years, one would think more years would re-train me. But, back then I needed to do quick mag changes.
Link Posted: 12/11/2016 12:07:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2016 12:07:05 AM EST by Roadhawk]
Topic Moved
Link Posted: 12/11/2016 12:07:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2016 12:07:43 AM EST by Roadhawk]
Topic Moved
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 10:53:04 AM EST
Where did this subject get moved, how to find it?

Link Posted: 12/12/2016 10:55:45 AM EST
What are the restrictions on existing AR's with a bullet button, flash hider (A2), pistol grip and collapsible stock? Are they also required to have a classification?
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 11:00:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
I have ordered a couple of grips, one is basically what looks like a pistol grip cut off at the bottom of the trigger guard. So, you can get your thumb in place almost like a pistol grip, except there is nothing to grab except the web of your hand and the trigger finger fits. I can not see how they can call it a pistol grip as nothing extends below the trigger guard. Only if they declare the thumb is now in a dangerous location. I'm
The other grip is angled at I think is a 40 degree angle, so they "think" it can not be declared a pistol grip. Have not received either yet, will have to see.
View Quote


The first one you mwntioned, the spur, is legal in NY, but not CA. FYI.

I've made a bunch of kydex wraps for people in ca, that's the best imo because they can pop off with a couple screws
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 11:03:04 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
Oh, I still have to register each AR, just do want to have them registered as an assault weapon. So, I will have to register them as a featureless rifle. One other thing is what ever a specific (by serial#) rifle is classified as, it has to stay that way forever, in any state. So, if one is classed as a featureless rifle and then one moves to a state that allows AR's, it can not be changed back to the original AR status.
The spur seems pretty neat, just not as much of a grip, but pretty close to the old AR feeling. I installed ambi. selectors because I was thinking I would have to go with one of the webbed things, but the spur allows the thumb to operate just like it always did. I think I will go back to the stock way again because the selector on the right side brushes against my trigger finger. Still have one more possible solution to arrive, but unless it is fantastic think I will stay with the spur.
View Quote



99.9% of what you just said is wrong.

Just trying to help.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 11:43:48 AM EST
I failed to mention early, I was only talking about a 80% build, they do have to be registered in Calif. by the end of next year. There is no option, so some are thinking I was talking about all existing AR's, which I do not understand at this time what if anything needs to be done for them.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 11:49:17 AM EST
I'm intrigued to see how many firearms are registered, and how many magazines >10rds are surrendered.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 2:49:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SilkyJohnson:
I'm intrigued to see how many firearms are registered, and how many magazines >10rds are surrendered.
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I just ordered 10rd magpul and there's an adapter to connect two back-to-back

My other mags will become parts for now, until further requirements are defined
Link Posted: 12/13/2016 12:10:25 AM EST
California allows the purchase of bullet button rifles until January 1, 2017. You have to purchase and have in your possession a bullet button rifle or receiver by December 31, 2016 if you plan on registering it by January 1, 2018 as an assault rifle. Rifles or receivers purchased in 2017 will not be allowed. Once registered as an assault rifle, always an assault rifle in Calif. You can not sell it in the state. Out of state is OK. You can not hand down to family. It dies with you. To be compliant after January 2017, if it has a detachable mag it can not have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, a telescoping stock or flash hider. If it does not have a detachable then you can have all the features. The new law states that if it takes partial disassembly of the action in order to remove the mag, it is not considered detachable. This applies to semi auto center fire rifles. DOJ has not defined what partial disassembly means. A good friend of mine is a long time dealer. He has spoken with local law enforcement, ATF and CHP. They have tried to get guidelines from DOJ . They can not even get a meeting as of a few weeks ago. I can tell you that from my contact with DOJ back in 2001-2002, they require modifications to be permanent. Permanent means drilling, grinding or machining. The simple use of tools is not considered permanent. I doubt they have eased up on that. Craig
Link Posted: 12/13/2016 9:02:46 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By a1bigtuna:
I failed to mention early, I was only talking about a 80% build, they do have to be registered in Calif. by the end of next year. There is no option, so some are thinking I was talking about all existing AR's, which I do not understand at this time what if anything needs to be done for them.
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CA requires all 80% be serialized by the end of next year, after that you must apply to the DOJ for a serial # in order to build an 80%. If you have any 80% I would recommend serializing them before hand.
Link Posted: 12/13/2016 9:09:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CMSENGINE:
California allows the purchase of bullet button rifles until January 1, 2017. You have to purchase and have in your possession a bullet button rifle or receiver by December 31, 2016 if you plan on registering it by January 1, 2018 as an assault rifle. Rifles or receivers purchased in 2017 will not be allowed. Once registered as an assault rifle, always an assault rifle in Calif. You can not sell it in the state. Out of state is OK. You can not hand down to family. It dies with you. To be compliant after January 2017, if it has a detachable mag it can not have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, a telescoping stock or flash hider. If it does not have a detachable then you can have all the features. The new law states that if it takes partial disassembly of the action in order to remove the mag, it is not considered detachable. This applies to semi auto center fire rifles. DOJ has not defined what partial disassembly means. A good friend of mine is a long time dealer. He has spoken with local law enforcement, ATF and CHP. They have tried to get guidelines from DOJ . They can not even get a meeting as of a few weeks ago. I can tell you that from my contact with DOJ back in 2001-2002, they require modifications to be permanent. Permanent means drilling, grinding or machining. The simple use of tools is not considered permanent. I doubt they have eased up on that. Craig
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You can convert a RAW to featureless and de-register it with the DOJ, when you do so it may never be re-registered.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 12:27:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2016 5:36:08 PM EST by a1bigtuna]
I read that the "spur" grip was legal in NY but not in Cal. Is this fact? I have been told that none of these "featureless" things are approved or dis-approved in writing by the CDOJ. How can I verify if it is actually got to go, or not? Hell, you can not even register an AR as an AW or a featureless today, so how do we know what is legal or not? I also have a grip which is at an angle of something like 40 degrees, so it does not protrude vertically, that manufacture does not actually know if this will be Ca legal or not, because there is nothing in writing in place one way or the other, yet.
Does anyone out there actually know if the spur is legal in Cal. or not? Rather than just think so?
Link Posted: 12/16/2016 9:22:54 AM EST
Please tell me once January 20th rolls around that federal law will trump all these ridiculous pending state laws of ours?

Link Posted: 12/20/2016 5:40:55 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By overthrow98:
Please tell me once January 20th rolls around that federal law will trump all these ridiculous pending state laws of ours?
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That's...not how it works.
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