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Posted: 4/17/2006 11:29:35 AM EST
again...

sorry if they've been answered before.

Having just received my CHL I want to make sure I'm always within the law when I carry and how I carry.

1) Can you open carry on your own property? The reason I ask is I see open carry at ranges like some of the private ranges in our area of TX that I've been too, not at public ranges though.

2) Can you carry in a Place of Worship (i.e. church, so forth) if a 30.06 sign is NOT posted, but a normal, "do not bring in any concealed weapons" rule is posted with a bunch of other rules.

Link Posted: 4/17/2006 11:48:45 AM EST
Yes you can open carry on your own property. Depending on the area the sheeple may get offended. The only places I open carry is the range or around the inside of the house.

Public ranges set their own policies, so it would depend on the range if open carry was okay.

Yes you can carry in a place of worship if a 30.06 sign is not posted and nobody verbally told you not to.
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 12:19:29 PM EST
I guess with both questions, can you open carry in a Religious Establishment if they give you the right (the owners/pastor)?
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 4:02:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
I guess with both questions, can you open carry in a Religious Establishment if they give you the right (the owners/pastor)?



Link Posted: 4/17/2006 4:11:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
I guess with both questions, can you open carry in a Religious Establishment if they give you the right (the owners/pastor)?



Generally speaking no. There are certain exceptions. See PC46.15
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 4:23:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2006 4:24:34 PM EST by MauserMark]
46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.


that's all I found for religious establishment, and it doesn't say anything about a 30.06 sign.

and I'm confused about the text in red. Is this only if you open carry? Or conceal in general.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 3:26:11 AM EST
i would think an apt would differ from an owned home in some way but i believe you can even open carry with no chl in you own home.

with the church thing the laws say no but there have been some that say yeah.



as for me i carry all the time even at home or in friends and families homes/shops and leave the gun in the car at church.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:16:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/18/2006 5:26:20 AM EST by MauserMark]

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i would think an apt would differ from an owned home in some way but i believe you can even open carry with no chl in you own home.

with the church thing the laws say no but there have been some that say yeah.



as for me i carry all the time even at home or in friends and families homes/shops and leave the gun in the car at church.



yeah that's what I was confused with. The teacher, one of the Pruett Sons, said he carries at church from what I understood because the minister specifically said he wants his congregation to carry. So my question was, can you carry if:

1) They GIVE you the right to carry in their establishment (church,synagouge...etc)
2) Or can you carry until they post a 30.06 sign? Again they have a typical (of what you see at other establishments) a sign about rules and concealed weapons are one of them.

which I can't get a straight answer for yet.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:34:28 AM EST
I need to start going to that church
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:39:31 AM EST
Gotta read all the statute:

" (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06."

www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.010.00.000046.00.htm



There's more info at:

www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:07:13 AM EST
R_S beat me to it, but I'll post it all together just to clarify.

The way the law was originally written, it was illegal to carry in hospitals, amusements parks, and churches. That was later changed, but instead of removing those subsections, they just added an additional line nullifying them. See below (the crossouts are mine).



§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a
governmental entity.

(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer
under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security
officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the
security officer's employment, the security officer violates a
provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or
outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for
use by the public that is located in a county with a population of
more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface
area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is
open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has
security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not
include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry
a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.
(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e)
is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under
Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony
of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical
reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas
Alcoholic Beverage Commission.



After this law passed, there was apparently a law added to the Health Code requiring hospitals to post 30.06 signs, but most of them still don't have them. They just have the old signs that read something along the lines of "state law prohibits carrying a concealed handgun on these premises." Since state law no longer prohibits it, and those aren't 30.06 signs, they don't mean squat.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 8:43:10 AM EST
Thanks as always.

That answered my questions.

I get lost reading that whole 46 set of laws (or whatever legal term they fall under).

-mark
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:49:13 PM EST
As you have seen above, churches are not off limits unless they post 30.06 signs.

A person who is on his own premises is exempt from 46.02. 46.02 states that a person commits the offense of Unlawful Carrying Weapons if he carries a handgun on or about his person. It makes NO distinction of concealed or open carry, nor of loaded or unloaded.

So a person on his own premise can carry however he likes, CHL or not.

Another exception is for a person who is on premises under his control. I am the ops manager and training director at a gun range in Dallas. As such, I am "in control" of the premises, as are the range officers and counter people. We are exempt from 46.02, and we can carry however we like, CHL or not.

Another exception is for people engaged in a lawful sporting activity, if the weapon is one commonly used in that activity. Handgun shooting at a gun range IS a lawful sporting activity, and handguns are commonly used in that activity. So people at a gun range who are there shooting are exempt from 46.02.

Aint it fun?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:51:16 PM EST
Y'all dial a Kaintucky boy in! Is this "30.06" sign the one I see posted that reads" The carry of deadly weapons on this property without a license is prohibited"?

Thanks
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:41:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Y'all dial a Kaintucky boy in! Is this "30.06" sign the one I see posted that reads" The carry of deadly weapons on this property without a license is prohibited"?

Thanks



More or less. More specifically, it is Texas Penal Code, subsection 30.06, quoted below. The required text of the sign is highlighted in red.


§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun
"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.



Notice it says the sign must be "identical to" the highlighted text. That means those circle/slash signs or "no concealed weapons" doesn't work.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 8:01:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By SmallChange:

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Y'all dial a Kaintucky boy in! Is this "30.06" sign the one I see posted that reads" The carry of deadly weapons on this property without a license is prohibited"?

Thanks



More or less. More specifically, it is Texas Penal Code, subsection 30.06, quoted below. The required text of the sign is highlighted in red.


§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun
"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.



Notice it says the sign must be "identical to" the highlighted text. That means those circle/slash signs or "no concealed weapons" doesn't work.



Its NOT more or less. If the sign is not EXACTLT as required by law, it means jack.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 5:03:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Its NOT more or less. If the sign is not EXACTLT as required by law, it means jack.



I guess "Sort of" or "almost" would have been a better phrase than "more or less" given the context.

I DID mention that "the sign must be 'identical to' the highlighted text."

I find it interesting that there are such strict guidelines for written notice, but no guidelines for oral notice. I've never heard of anyone I know being given oral notice.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 6:09:33 AM EST
Yeah, before I even carried, I knew just from seeing them, what a 30.06 sign is. They're hard not to recognize, but all other signs about concealed weapons, yada yada I know realize don't mean jack.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 6:16:00 AM EST

I find it interesting that there are such strict guidelines for written notice, but no guidelines for oral notice. I've never heard of anyone I know being given oral notice.


Well, maybe it's just me, but the average non-CHL person isn't going to think of telling you not to carry. The concept doesn't register with them. The only time I can see oral notice coming up is if somebody notices you are carrying and tells you to get out. In which case, all I can say is you should have concealed it better.

It does, however, imply that if you are carrying somewhere that is posted with a non-30.06 sign that you should keep quiet about carrying. Which is probably a good idea, anyway.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 6:17:10 AM EST
Just to be clear, any establishment has the right to post a 30.06 sign, correct?
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 7:44:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
Just to be clear, any establishment has the right to post a 30.06 sign, correct?



No. here is the exception;


Texas Penal Code 30.06

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

Link Posted: 4/19/2006 7:53:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
Just to be clear, any establishment has the right to post a 30.06 sign, correct?



Yes, *ANYONE* can post one. Also *ANYONE* can give verbal notice. The burden falls on you to figure out if it has the force of law behind it.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 9:19:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
Just to be clear, any establishment has the right to post a 30.06 sign, correct?



No. here is the exception;


Texas Penal Code 30.06

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.




This brings up another question for me. Under 46.02 (a) (3): "on the premises of any government court or offices
utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or
written authorization of the court;
"

What exactly constitutes "offices utilized by the court?" Where to police stations, etc. fall under this? Most of the city offices where I live have 30.06 signs posted, but I never know which ones are valid since many of them have multiple offices that may or may not qualify under 46.03.
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 10:48:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By SmallChange:
This brings up another question for me. Under 46.02 (a) (3): "on the premises of any government court or offices
utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or
written authorization of the court;
"

What exactly constitutes "offices utilized by the court?" Where to police stations, etc. fall under this? Most of the city offices where I live have 30.06 signs posted, but I never know which ones are valid since many of them have multiple offices that may or may not qualify under 46.03.



You are bringing up old wounds. This was all brought up to TSRA back long ago, whe nthe wording was changed as part of SB501. They said don't worry, be happy. How a CHL is supposed to know if a given premises is a "premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court" is unknown to me.
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