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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/1/2005 6:32:03 AM EDT
I know you Brits have your own NRA(which predates our own) but unlike ours yours isn't involved in lobbying for gunowner rights(is this true?). What are some of the organizations over there which actively fight for gun rights. And are any of you members?


...I heard that CCRKBA(Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms) has opened an office in London. Do any of you know anything about this?

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:55:02 AM EDT
Our NRA doesn't really strictly support gun "ownership" per say. It DOES however support the shooting sports.

I believe the UK lacks a well organised gun lobby, which is a shame, as the ANTI gun lobby in the country is really strong.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 8:03:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlairHous:
Our NRA doesn't really strictly support gun "ownership" per say. It DOES however support the shooting sports.

I believe the UK lacks a well organised gun lobby, which is a shame, as the ANTI gun lobby in the country is really strong.



Do you know about the CCRKBA in London?

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:00:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:

Originally Posted By BlairHous:
Our NRA doesn't really strictly support gun "ownership" per say. It DOES however support the shooting sports.

I believe the UK lacks a well organised gun lobby, which is a shame, as the ANTI gun lobby in the country is really strong.



Do you know about the CCRKBA in London?




It's not an organisation that I'm farmiliar with, and I do quite a lot of campaigning (although I don't even have a FAC yet), hmmm...Any idea how long they've been active?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:31:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlairHous:

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:

Originally Posted By BlairHous:
Our NRA doesn't really strictly support gun "ownership" per say. It DOES however support the shooting sports.

I believe the UK lacks a well organised gun lobby, which is a shame, as the ANTI gun lobby in the country is really strong.



Do you know about the CCRKBA in London?




It's not an organisation that I'm farmiliar with, and I do quite a lot of campaigning (although I don't even have a FAC yet), hmmm...Any idea how long they've been active?





The CCRKBA is U.S. based and according to thier website opened an office in London. Here is their webpage announcing the opening of the London office.

www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/press-releases/CC-RELEASE_British_office_opens.html

and the CCRKBA website is

www.ccrkba.org


NEWS RELEASE

Citizens Committee for the
Right to Keep and Bear Arms
12500 N.E. Tenth Place
Bellevue, WA 98005

CCRKBA TAKES GUN RIGHTS BATTLE INTERNATIONAL, OPENS OFFICE IN LONDON

For Immediate Release: March 17, 2004

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) today announced that it is opening an office in London, and joining with embattled British citizens in their fight to restore their firearms rights.


It is the first time an American firearm civil rights organization has opened an office on foreign soil. CCRKBA Chairman Alan M. Gottlieb has appointed veteran Conservative Party activist Greg Smith as the organization's European representative.


"British citizens and gun owners from other European countries will be funding this effort," Gottlieb said. "Just as with America's war against international terrorism, we are taking the fight against international gun control to our enemies. With the attack on gun rights becoming global, it is important to fight these battles on every continent before we find ourselves isolated from an important human civil right.


"Extremist gun control measures have disarmed the British people," Gottlieb continued, "leaving them vulnerable to criminal assault. Incredibly, if they do defend themselves, they can be prosecuted and imprisoned. Since the United Kingdom banned privately owned handguns in 1997, gun crime has nearly doubled. What more appropriate place for the Citizens Committee to be than in the middle of this battleground, offering whatever help we can to British citizens in their efforts to take back their neighborhoods and make their communities safe once again?"


Gottlieb is traveling to London to help Smith open the office there. While there, he will meet with members of Parliament.


"The British example," Smith said, "is conclusive proof to anyone who proposes gun control that it simply does not work. You can take guns away from law-abiding citizens, whose only desire is to protect their homes and families. However, our experience has proved that you cannot stop criminals, who are reportedly bringing guns into the country illegally, while honest citizens find it nearly impossible to even own a sporting shotgun."


"Gun control zealots in the United States contend that America should follow the British model," Gottlieb observed. "Now law-abiding British citizens are telling us that doesn't work. There is no more credible a source about the consequences of British disarmament than the citizens who have become the victims of their government's policies, and the criminals those policies have unleashed."


With more than 650,000 members and supporters nationwide, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is one of the nation's premier gun rights organizations. As a non-profit organization, the Citizens Committee is dedicated to preserving firearms freedoms through active lobbying of elected officials and facilitating grass-roots organization of gun rights activists in local communities throughout the United States. The Citizens Committee can be reached by phone at (425) 454-4911, on the internet at www.ccrkba.org or by email to www@ccrkba.org.



-END-

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:38:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 10:39:02 AM EDT by streetfighter]
I've never read a bigger pile of mis-truths and dogshit in my life

If that's what they're spouting, then CCRKBA can go and Fuck Off

Mark

ETA: and I wasted post #1100 on this
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:41:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
I've never read a bigger pile of mis-truths and dogshit in my life

If that's what they're spouting, then CCRKBA can go and Fuck Off

Mark

ETA: and I wasted post #1100 on this



Don't hold back - tell us what you really think!
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:42:42 AM EDT
Why exactly is that dogshit?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:55:43 AM EDT
This bit is certainly junk

The British example," Smith said, "is conclusive proof to anyone who proposes gun control that it simply does not work. You can take guns away from law-abiding citizens, whose only desire is to protect their homes and families. However, our experience has proved that you cannot stop criminals, who are reportedly bringing guns into the country illegally, while honest citizens find it nearly impossible to even own a sporting shotgun."


It implies that we were free to defend our home & families with pistols pre the pistol ban - which is certainly a fundamental lack of understanding of British law at the very least! (Likewise the shotgun bit.)
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:03:01 AM EDT
I think you're missing the point.

They are in the UK as a base to further their US campaign. They aren't here to help us per se, if we happen to get a better deal out of their campainging then so be it, be remember, we do not have a right to keep and bear arms.

We do have a right to hold a shotgun though, but, not a 'sporting' shotgun. You need a section 1 to hold a shotgun that is proper multi shot. A section 1 to most people is near impossible, if nothing else for all the hoops you have to jump through.

To me that doesn't imply we could use guns for self defense at all, simply that gun control does not work. That is fact, gun control does not work, we have more guns now than ever before.

If you read the passage as seperate statements, they are all true.

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:04:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 11:06:35 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:05:49 AM EDT
"Extremist gun control measures have disarmed the British people," Gottlieb continued, "leaving them vulnerable to criminal assault. Incredibly, if they do defend themselves, they can be prosecuted and imprisoned.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but we were never armed
Besides, everyone has the right to defend themselves.
I don't consider Tony Martin's case of illegally possessing a shotgun and shooting a fleeing burglar in the back as self-defense. And before anyone starts, shoot someone in the back anywhere in the world and you go to jail

. Since the United Kingdom banned privately owned handguns in 1997, gun crime has nearly doubled.

Pure coincidence, and a sign of the times. We do live in a more violent and lawless society nowadays, that's true, but you all know that handguns were only ever permitted for sporting/recreation purposes.
Try telling the authorities that you want a firearm for self-protection and see how far you get with your request.

"The British example," Smith said, "is conclusive proof to anyone who proposes gun control that it simply does not work. You can take guns away from law-abiding citizens, whose only desire is to protect their homes and families.

The "British" example?....whose only desire blah blah..protect home and family etc etc.
Well, I've already stated that these were never Good Reason for owning a firearm.

Now, I've nothing against anyone wanting to protect what's near and dear to them but this type of blanket statement is just dodging around the facts.
In Britain, firearm ownership is just for sporting purposes and that's all.

Organisations such as this CCRKBA and the US NRA are always giving the impression to their gullible followers that Britain has banned all guns and left the population defenseless.
And we all know that this is not the case at all.

Before the ban, there weren't many people here who knew that it was possible to actually own a firearm. There are still plenty out there who think that all guns are still banned.
So to say that the criminals have taken advantage of the situation is utter bollocks. There is no connection.

I shoot for sport, as do the rest of you. Don't try and kid me otherwise And shooting sports and self-defense are two entirely different issues

Mark

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:09:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 11:12:46 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:16:22 AM EDT
You know what Mark, I kind of agree, but they are only looking to further their own aim, which is the right to keep and bear arms in the US. and for them it's written in black and white, so I support them fully in that task.

People shouldn't rob people, OK so the consequences were high in the Tony Martin case for both parties, but how about we avoid it and stop robbing people?

I absolutely agree on the more guns since the handgun ban, it is just the world we live in, however, that has no connection with the fact that handguns were banned for pretty much no reason that can be substantiated.

I agree Mark, the picture they paint of the UK is slightly misleading but they have an honorable cause trying to protect their own right behind it.

Oh, You CAN own firearms for self defence in the UK, I've actually looked into this in the past couple of days.

You can be granted a section 5 for self defence if:

You are a serving member of special forces

You have been a serving member of the special forces

You have had connections with groups that present a present danger to your life (but this is usually hand in hand with the special forces bit above).


Dave

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:31:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:33:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By elucidate:
You know what Mark, I kind of agree, but they are only looking to further their own aim, which is the right to keep and bear arms in the US. and for them it's written in black and white, so I support them fully in that task.


Then why are they here in Blighty??


I agree Mark, the picture they paint of the UK is slightly misleading but they have an honorable cause trying to protect their own right behind it.

Slightly misleading??? It's totally misleading, and once again....why are they here??


Oh, You CAN own firearms for self defence in the UK, I've actually looked into this in the past couple of days.

You can be granted a section 5 for self defence if:

You are a serving member of special forces

You have been a serving member of the special forces

You have had connections with groups that present a present danger to your life (but this is usually hand in hand with the special forces bit above).



I realise that, and I also know that there are very few of those "Grants" in existence.

Besides all that....psst, contrary to what the others might have told you....I was never in the SAS

Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:43:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 11:43:42 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:45:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
Originally Posted By elucidate:

Besides all that....psst, contrary to what the others might have told you....I was never in the SAS



Not even this SAS…

tinypic.com/9scqxw.jpg

Andy


Maybe, I did fly with them last year.
Does that count?? I did have an AR with me

Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:55:00 AM EDT
I don't understand why some of you guys find the aims (or the methods?) of this RKBA org to be objectionable. Personally, I think they are on our side so they have earned a small measure of my respect.

To earn more, they must demonstrate their willingness to promote the RKBA.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 12:10:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 12:10:57 PM EDT by elucidate]

Originally Posted By streetfighter:
Slightly misleading??? It's totally misleading, and once again....why are they here??



To protect their own rights, and If I was in the same situation, I'd be doing it too.


I realise that, and I also know that there are very few of those "Grants" in existence.


I'd reckon there is a lot more than one might think. People only really KNOW of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinnes having one. And I can also confirm they issue you with a Browning from the Armoury, you can't just go out and buy what you like. I know someone personally who has one. I also know some personally that has an AR with a selector switch that has the 'fun' position. In the UK, not 10 miles from my house.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 12:13:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 12:29:12 PM EDT by vito113]

Originally Posted By BlairHous:
I don't understand why some of you guys find the aims (or the methods?) of this RKBA org to be objectionable. Personally, I think they are on our side so they have earned a small measure of my respect.

To earn more, they must demonstrate their willingness to promote the RKBA.



What are you more interested in...
1) Shooting?
2) Owning a gun?

Judging by your previous posts, I think it's the latter

In Britain it's not a right, it's a privilege .

Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 12:34:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 12:36:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 12:43:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By BlairHous:
I don't understand why some of you guys find the aims (or the methods?) of this RKBA org to be objectionable. Personally, I think they are on our side so they have earned a small measure of my respect.

To earn more, they must demonstrate their willingness to promote the RKBA.



What are you more interested in...
1) Shooting?
2) Owning a gun?

Judging by your previous posts, I think it's the latter

In Britain it's not a right, it's a privilege .

Mark




Mark,
Am I correct in thinking that you do not favor RKBA? If not, then why not. And is your signature line in reference to the Michigan Militia?

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:19:25 PM EDT
The CRKBA send out a newsletter every week or so and I receive a copy. The opening of the UK office seemed a publicity stunk aimed at the US market rather than the UK's. They do not lobby in the UK.

All the newsletters apart from the first one is purely a US thing, aimed at the US market, asking for donations and membership. The latest one is all about "CCRKBA HAILS PASSAGE OF INDUSTRY LAWSUIT PROTECTION BILL IN SENATE". If they were here to help us (the UK citizen) then I'd be for it, but they don't talk to anyone, don't lobby MPs and just ask for money from us.

Blairhous doesn't really seem to know a lot about the campaign for or against gun 'rights' despite being a seasoned campaigner (impression gained from reading the posts in the GD forum containing a lot of factual errors). The Anti gun lobby is basically GCN with about 5 paid up members. Talk now is banning them from the committee that makes recommendations to the government on firearms matters (replacement for the old FCC) as they are not objective enough and are just a 'ban everything' organisation. Our biggest problem is the press and the mindless sheeple who's only knowledge of gun issues is what the press tells them. If they had to make up their own minds then they'd probably explode.

And another thing, a Sect1 shotgun is no harder to get than any other Sect1 firearm, just show suitable reason to hold and you'll get the permission. If you just want one because you want to own one then it's likely you'll not get the slot.

Also firearms for personal defence are not allowed on the mainland except in very exceptional circumstances and then you'll get a pistol, not an assault rifle (and only one). I've been told that there are only a handfull (quoted as less than a dozen) of such licences around, and many of the people who say they've got one are most likely Sect5 dealers with a hard on wanting to be tough (a bit like the 'SAS' members you meet on the shooting circuit - I've meet more of them that say they at the 'Embassy' that they need to build an extension just for the reunion).
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:28:21 PM EDT
I did a bit of investigation into the thing I was telling you about Matt. Definate ex SAS, but then I've known that since day one.

1x Browning for defence. Issued to Sgt Maj (name removed) of 22 SAS.

The 11 Pistols and 1x full Auto AR - Issued as per Section 5 for purposes relating to business (he runs a company that specialises in anti terrorist work)

2x rifles on a Section 1, personal issue.

HOW much paperwork must he fill in!!!!!!

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:43:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Scope-eye:
The CRKBA send out a newsletter every week or so and I receive a copy. The opening of the UK office seemed a publicity stunk aimed at the US market rather than the UK's. They do not lobby in the UK.

All the newsletters apart from the first one is purely a US thing, aimed at the US market, asking for donations and membership. The latest one is all about "CCRKBA HAILS PASSAGE OF INDUSTRY LAWSUIT PROTECTION BILL IN SENATE". If they were here to help us (the UK citizen) then I'd be for it, but they don't talk to anyone, don't lobby MPs and just ask for money from us.

Blairhous doesn't really seem to know a lot about the campaign for or against gun 'rights' despite being a seasoned campaigner (impression gained from reading the posts in the GD forum containing a lot of factual errors). The Anti gun lobby is basically GCN with about 5 paid up members. Talk now is banning them from the committee that makes recommendations to the government on firearms matters (replacement for the old FCC) as they are not objective enough and are just a 'ban everything' organisation. Our biggest problem is the press and the mindless sheeple who's only knowledge of gun issues is what the press tells them. If they had to make up their own minds then they'd probably explode.

And another thing, a Sect1 shotgun is no harder to get than any other Sect1 firearm, just show suitable reason to hold and you'll get the permission. If you just want one because you want to own one then it's likely you'll not get the slot.

Also firearms for personal defence are not allowed on the mainland except in very exceptional circumstances and then you'll get a pistol, not an assault rifle (and only one). I've been told that there are only a handfull (quoted as less than a dozen) of such licences around, and many of the people who say they've got one are most likely Sect5 dealers with a hard on wanting to be tough (a bit like the 'SAS' members you meet on the shooting circuit - I've meet more of them that say they at the 'Embassy' that they need to build an extension just for the reunion).



hmmmm...I can see your point. If I have made many factual mistakes in the pass I apologies, although I am not aware of said mistakes (but then again, if I was aware of the mistakes I wouldn't have made them in the first pkace.)

I've been "active" on this issue for 3 years now. I've never asked for monetary support (never will) and have recieved a lot of flak from the anti-gun people, and recently even from some relatively pro gun people who do not apparently favour the RKBA. It's not something I've ever done with the support of a group, my activism has been rather solitary, I sort of thought that I could discover some pro RKBA people in the UK and I thought that I had, however it appears that even here, opinions on the RKBA seem to be somewhat less than favorable.

I'll probably scale down my posting here somewhat as there appears to be more of a division of opinion here than I previously thought.

I'll probably pop in from time to time if/when I get my FAC to discuss shooting sports and rifles etc, but I don't think I'll be posting anything political as it appears to be very much in vain.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:49:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 1:51:42 PM EDT by streetfighter]

I don't think I'll be posting anything political as it appears to be very much in vain.


You're right about that
oh BTW, 3 years huh?? It must've been hard doing all that "active stuff" when your mum was calling you for your tea

Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:49:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:56:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

I don't think I'll be posting anything political as it appears to be very much in vain.


You're right about that
oh BTW, 3 years huh?? It must've been hard doing all that "active stuff" when your mum was calling you for your tea

Mark



Right ok...Well I guess I needed to be a little more independant and grown up when I was 16 than most people

My childhood wasn't exactly great
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 2:08:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 2:09:24 PM EDT by UKGuy]
hey you guys give the youngster a break!!
Im not much older myself (26) and ive been shooting for 12 years, Ive got medals for pistol shooting from the boy's brigade, i mean how much more pc did it need to be??

I got my ticket in 1997 aged 17yrs, and have never looked back,

At 26 and shooting for 12 years ive had enough of nearly every association there is, they'll sell your type of shooting / gun down the river as long as they are Ok, I think we need a political lobby maybe one day we'll get everything back that weve lost ( did i see a flying pig),

Or perhaps our Ar's will be next on the Non PC gun list,

The queen has quite good taste in Personal protection kit, Nice to see use of a soundmoderator in accordance with HSE guidance,




James
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 2:11:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 2:51:09 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 2:39:00 PM EDT


Mark,
Am I correct in thinking that you do not favor RKBA? If not, then why not. And is your signature line in reference to the Michigan Militia?



It's not that I do or don't favour RKBA, that's irrelevant in our situation.
I don't believe that just about anyone should be able to get access to a firearm. We have a licensing system. I think it works.
Britain will never be as free and easy as the US when it comes to acquiring firearms, so our circumstances are entirely different to yours. There is no comparison.
You guys seem hung up on defending yourselves. Why? What are you worried about??
I don't spend all my waking day worrying if I'm going to be attacked and wondering how I'm going to win the fight with my CCW or what gun I should have next to the bed or within arms reach.
I shoot because it's a hobby, not because I need a gun for self-protection

The sig line thing has nothing to do with a Michigan Militia. It's just a sig line that arose from an argument on the ammo forum

Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 2:52:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:


Mark,
Am I correct in thinking that you do not favor RKBA? If not, then why not. And is your signature line in reference to the Michigan Militia?



It's not that I do or don't favour RKBA, that's irrelevant in our situation.
I don't believe that just about anyone should be able to get access to a firearm. We have a licensing system. I think it works.
Britain will never be as free and easy as the US when it comes to acquiring firearms, so our circumstances are entirely different to yours. There is no comparison.
You guys seem hung up on defending yourselves. Why? What are you worried about??
I don't spend all my waking day worrying if I'm going to be attacked and wondering how I'm going to win the fight with my CCW or what gun I should have next to the bed or within arms reach.
I shoot because it's a hobby, not because I need a gun for self-protection

The sig line thing has nothing to do with a Michigan Militia. It's just a sig line that arose from an argument on the ammo forum

Mark



Would you be in favour of increased gun "rights", for example being able to possess handguns and semiauto centrefires under the current FAC system?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 2:58:29 PM EDT



Would you be in favour of increased gun "rights", for example being able to possess handguns and semiauto centrefires under the current FAC system?



Kinda goes without saying, but yes, of course I would. Are you trying to lead this somewhere?????????????

I'm going to bed now, it's midnight.
If this is still going on tomorrow, I'll join back in.
Till then seeya

Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:19:49 PM EDT
Matt

I have noticed that I too have met a lot of ex SAS people on the circuit

I should take note and ask them the colour of the boat house at Hereford (to quote the film Ronin)

Funny....no one ever admits to being in the catering core.......................

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:20:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 3:29:34 PM EDT by Pep]
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:27:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:



Would you be in favour of increased gun "rights", for example being able to possess handguns and semiauto centrefires under the current FAC system?



Kinda goes without saying, but yes, of course I would. Are you trying to lead this somewhere?????????????

Mark



I'm not sure that I'm going somewhere with this, but surely this shows that you are dissatisfied wih the current stance of the .gov?

Surely you and I have the same aims as far as legalising pistol shooting and semi-centrefires are concerned?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:14:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BlairHous:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:



Would you be in favour of increased gun "rights", for example being able to possess handguns and semiauto centrefires under the current FAC system?



Kinda goes without saying, but yes, of course I would. Are you trying to lead this somewhere?????????????

Mark



I'm not sure that I'm going somewhere with this, but surely this shows that you are dissatisfied wih the current stance of the .gov?

Surely you and I have the same aims as far as legalising pistol shooting and semi-centrefires are concerned?



I enjoy my shooting with what I've got.
If someone was to give me something better....great....but it's not going to change my life.
Why don't you go and get a license and take up shooting rather than spending your time fighting this "Gun Rights" issue, trying to get back something you never owned in the first place.
What you don't know is that several of us are pro-active already when it comes to firearms issues and shooting matters.
I do my part but leave a lot of it to other, better placed indviduals and organisations to fight the fight.
I spend enough time already involved in my club to devote any more time to another cause.

I'm far more concerned about how many entries we'll have for our next shoot or how we're going to select our Highpower and GB SR teams for next year than when and if we're going to get a certain class of firearm back.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject

Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:37:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pep:
Matt

I have noticed that I too have met a lot of ex SAS people on the circuit

I should take note and ask them the colour of the boat house at Hereford (to quote the film Ronin)

Funny....no one ever admits to being in the catering core.......................




Last time i was there it was black and white,

And i was never in the catering Corp!!

it was the women auxillary balloon corp!!

James
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:34:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:50:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 4:02:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By BlairHous:
Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Surely you and I have the same aims as far as legalising pistol shooting and semi-centrefires are concerned?



No I don't think we have…

We want pistols to shoot targets, you seem to want RKBA and pistols to shoot criminals. Ours is an achievable goal that is making some progress at last, yours is never going to happen.

And if/when pistols do come back it will be under very tight restrictions. They will probably be kept at designated centres, the owners will have to shoot competitions regularly and they will be .22 only. The initial grants of permits will probably be only to existing long standing FAC holders to see how things go. So no, you will not be able to get one because quote;… "Because I need to be protected. I want to be on an equal footing to the criminals who flaunt the law anyway"…

Likewise centre-fire semi autos… probably never going to come back. We have an unarmed Police, ACPO does not like being outgunned and a semi-auto AR gives you a lot of firepower. Semi-autos are not even on the far horizon for a possible return.


ANdy



Great points well made.
The issues of self defence are completely different from our Firearms issues.

I personaly think we should have more powers to protect ourselves. I'd like to think my wife who's not very big could carry pepper/cs spray to protect hereself but this is not allowed. I'd feel a little worried if she was CCW as that could be used agaist her. If she had the pepper spray/cs used against her....her chance of walking away would be greater.

So even though I think we should have more options open to us for self defence guns are not nessesarily the answer.

I think I should have the power to protect my property the same as I can protect my family and myself but in reality that's not legal. If I catch someone stealing my car...no one is in imediate danger so there's not a lot I can do legaly. If I wake up to find someone at the top of my stairs with a weapon and my wife and son are in bed....then I can escalate my response

My personal belief is when an individual plans/carries out a crime....he should imidiately forfeit any rights we as citizens have. Therefore he is fair game. My rights as an innocent victim should be paramount and I should be allowed to defend myself,my family and my property as i see fit..with the full backing of the Law...fat chance of that happening

GUNS

I enjoy shooting and my rifles are for shooting at the range. Unless i was attacked at the range my ammo is always locked seperatly from my rifles. So I never have to worry about the dilema of shooting anyone. So no matter how many rifles you have does not make you safer.

Blairhous I'm not convinced your reasons for owning firearms are sound.

Also if you made your views known (as you have done here) to members of a club(or my club) during your probationary period...you'd be out on your arse

Taffy
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 5:52:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:


Mark,
Am I correct in thinking that you do not favor RKBA? If not, then why not. And is your signature line in reference to the Michigan Militia?



It's not that I do or don't favour RKBA, that's irrelevant in our situation.
I don't believe that just about anyone should be able to get access to a firearm. We have a licensing system. I think it works.
Britain will never be as free and easy as the US when it comes to acquiring firearms, so our circumstances are entirely different to yours. There is no comparison.
You guys seem hung up on defending yourselves. Why? What are you worried about??
I don't spend all my waking day worrying if I'm going to be attacked and wondering how I'm going to win the fight with my CCW or what gun I should have next to the bed or within arms reach.
I shoot because it's a hobby, not because I need a gun for self-protection

The sig line thing has nothing to do with a Michigan Militia. It's just a sig line that arose from an argument on the ammo forum

Mark



Mark, thanks for responding. A few points if I may;

1. I don't know much about the RKBA situation in the UK which is why I'm here asking questions(just trying to learn, not start arguements).

2. The wrong type of people always seem to be able to get anything, including drugs and guns. It's the law abiding who are made to jump through hoops.

3. We are not "hung" up on defending ourselves, we just don't want that right taken away. An issue becomes a big deal when certain politicians and others insist that we don't have certain rights.

4. You can win an encounter with a criminal if you are armed. The NRA publishes true accounts taken from newspapers every month in their magazines. Most home invasions happend during the day when the (armed)occupant is likely to be away.

so again, I'm not trying to start smack, just wanna learn about how things are in the UK.

thanks

david

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:23:36 PM EDT
I really think the RKBA is the wrong organisation for the UK shooter and our unique situation, and could possible hurt our chances of regaining any lost rights rather than help.


Blairhous. Be careful what direction you head with your campaign. And get your facts straight before you start to argue for the return of something that was never taken in the first place - if nothing else it'll stop you looking a fool. Also get shooting and learn the sport and then you'll be in a better position to start your campaign from.

I'm a member of the US NRA, and I enjoy reading in every issue of Rifleman the accounts of little old ladies who foiled robberies etc. with their guns, makes good reading. But the situation in the UK is nowhere near as bad as in the States: we don't need to protect ourselves from our fellow citizens anywhere near as much. This sort of crime is not so prevalent - yet.

To my mind the best associations to belong to for protecting our gun rights are the (UK)NRA and BASC. There are others but these two have been the most help to me directly and on a personal level as well as in general terms.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:49:31 PM EDT
If I may:

I have a CCW permit here in the States and regularly carry. I'm former military and law enforcement and carry a weapon for the same reason I keep a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit in my car; in case I need them. That having been said, I think the self-defense argument used by organizations such as the CCRKBA and the self-defense paranoia which is pretty prevalent amongst us American gun nuts is way overblown and has nothing to do with the actual reasons that a right to firearms ownership was included in the Constitution. The founders wanted citizens to own firearms so that they would be available:

-In extraordinary circumstances, i.e. Indian raids, civil breakdown, foreign invasion-as I recall, American gunowners during WWII were asked to send spare firearms to the UK to be distributed to individuals thru the Home Office.

-In case the need arose to overthrow the current government thru violent action.

While both of these situations might be exceedingly rare, who's to say what can happen 25 or 50 years down the road? When I joined the military in 1996 I certainly never imagined that I'd see my friends being sent to Afghanistan five years later. Perhaps these circumstances will never occur-that'd be fine by me. It's certainly nothing that keeps me up at night. But I don't see any reason to give up our option to own firearms should, as they say, TSHTF.

It might be different if there was some sort of evidence that firearms availability had an impact on crime one way or another. Then, perhaps, we could weigh the possible positive impact of firearms restrictions against the remote possibility that we'll need to stave off a Chinese invasion or remove The Militant Transgendered Junta of 2023. Of course, any such discussion would have to involve modification of our current Constitution and I'd fight the idea tooth-and-nail and then probably not comply with any laws that were passed (I fear the Chinese AND the trannies). But by looking at the question from both international and unit-level points of view, I don't see any relationship between how easy it is to get a firearm and how much gun crime takes place. Causes of and solutions to violent crime are far more complex.

You guys, on the other hand, have no Constitutional provision for firearms ownership and therefore no RKBA, unless you look at it from the perspective of a human right to self-defense which is an argument that has far larger implications than whether or not you get your center-fire pistols back. I don't think you'd get much public support for establishing an RKBA, either.

I guess I'm just saying that I understand y'alls affection for guns from a sport shooter's point of view and why your opinions on gun control might differ from your American brethren. And I would certainly resent an organization like the CCRKBA setting up shop and telling you guys how it's done.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:51:18 PM EDT
That's just about it, Mett-t

It's nice that they want to try and help, but first understand our situation. We'll be better off with our own homegrown lobbyists.

I don't think their reasons for helping were purely altruistic.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:31:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By METT-T:
If I may:

I have a CCW permit here in the States and regularly carry. I'm former military and law enforcement and carry a weapon for the same reason I keep a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit in my car; in case I need them. That having been said, I think the self-defense argument used by organizations such as the CCRKBA and the self-defense paranoia which is pretty prevalent amongst us American gun nuts is way overblown and has nothing to do with the actual reasons that a right to firearms ownership was included in the Constitution. The founders wanted citizens to own firearms so that they would be available:

-In extraordinary circumstances, i.e. Indian raids, civil breakdown, foreign invasion-as I recall, American gunowners during WWII were asked to send spare firearms to the UK to be distributed to individuals thru the Home Office.

-In case the need arose to overthrow the current government thru violent action.

While both of these situations might be exceedingly rare, who's to say what can happen 25 or 50 years down the road? When I joined the military in 1996 I certainly never imagined that I'd see my friends being sent to Afghanistan five years later. Perhaps these circumstances will never occur-that'd be fine by me. It's certainly nothing that keeps me up at night. But I don't see any reason to give up our option to own firearms should, as they say, TSHTF.

It might be different if there was some sort of evidence that firearms availability had an impact on crime one way or another. Then, perhaps, we could weigh the possible positive impact of firearms restrictions against the remote possibility that we'll need to stave off a Chinese invasion or remove The Militant Transgendered Junta of 2023. Of course, any such discussion would have to involve modification of our current Constitution and I'd fight the idea tooth-and-nail and then probably not comply with any laws that were passed (I fear the Chinese AND the trannies). But by looking at the question from both international and unit-level points of view, I don't see any relationship between how easy it is to get a firearm and how much gun crime takes place. Causes of and solutions to violent crime are far more complex.

You guys, on the other hand, have no Constitutional provision for firearms ownership and therefore no RKBA, unless you look at it from the perspective of a human right to self-defense which is an argument that has far larger implications than whether or not you get your center-fire pistols back. I don't think you'd get much public support for establishing an RKBA, either.

I guess I'm just saying that I understand y'alls affection for guns from a sport shooter's point of view and why your opinions on gun control might differ from your American brethren. And I would certainly resent an organization like the CCRKBA setting up shop and telling you guys how it's done.



Well put Mett-t,
I might also ad that overall crime is at a 30(?) year low, while gun ownership is at an all time high. However the RKBA is not unique to the U.S. In olden days the subjects of Britain were required to be armed. The kings would draw archers and such from the general population(you Brits can correct me on this). In fact it was law that every able bodied man be armed. So our tradition of Militias have British roots.

The founders really envisioned for us a situation similiar to Switzerland. With a well trained and equiped militia.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:11:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 7:14:55 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:39:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By blackrifle51:
Originally Posted By METT-T:
/quote]

Well put Mett-t,
I might also ad that overall crime is at a 30(?) year low, while gun ownership is at an all time high. However the RKBA is not unique to the U.S. In olden days the subjects of Britain were required to be armed. The kings would draw archers and such from the general population(you Brits can correct me on this). In fact it was law that every able bodied man be armed. So our tradition of Militias have British roots.

The founders really envisioned for us a situation similiar to Switzerland. With a well trained and equiped militia.




Not really a valid analogy……

I am 'armed' as required by that law you refer to!… I am a 'yeoman', a freeman who owns his own property and land, and I actually happen to own a bow and arrows as required by that law, which I believe is still on the statute books.

We are 'required' by that law to enagage in two hours target practice on sundays under the supervision of a priest.… well I do obey that one…but with a rifle.

Referring back to medieval laws conferring the right to bear arms can be very silly!…

Examples of medieval Laws still technically in force:

Freemen of the City of Chester are allowed to shoot Welshmen with bows and arrows if they catch them within the city walls after midnight… lookout Taffster!

In York it is legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow except on Sundays.


There is much debate about our Bill of Rights of 1688 and it's 'conferring' the RKBA, what it actually said is:

That the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and
as allowed by Law.


Notice, 'and as allowed by law'. Most people quoting the Bill of Rights omit those vital and very important last few words.
In Northern Ireland the 'Law' does permit the possession of arms for self defence, but elsewhere in Britain it does not. And as I'm a catholic I'm buggered anyway!


ANdy



ANdy,
thanks for the corrections. I think the issue is the principle establishing that the populace should be armed is what interests the supporters the RKBA.

A good archer could inflict mayhem and mass murder just like a disturbed gun freak(human bodies are still vulnarable to the high speed flings of pointy sticks). If a disturbed archer in Modern Britain were to go on a rampage you would probably lose the right to bows and arrows.

Our Militia Act of 17XX is still on the books, so technically every able bodied male is part of this militia.

Our own Constitution was influenced by the "Medievel" Magna Carta. So it's not always silly to refer to those old laws.

thanks,
David

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