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Posted: 10/28/2004 4:04:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2005 2:38:22 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:58:25 AM EDT
If you guys can give me a few days I'll sit down with mark5pt56 and go over all the things we did last time and he will help us develop a course for phaseII. We can throw ideas around for months but I think it would be best if we started from an instructor standpoint since they are always developing course cirriculums like this. He can custom design one for us and we can use it as a base and tweak it.

Also, the shoothouse and UD , KD and driving ranges are out so there is not sense in bringing it up.

What do you think?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:12:23 AM EDT
Weapons retention...

Pistol shooting with a light...

Shotgunning?

Weak side shooting a carbine.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:47:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Blackwater will not give an Military/LEO type training to civilians.





So how much trouble is it to incorporate into a law enforcement agency? We could get nationwide CC too.


Its a win win situation.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:09:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LHD:

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Blackwater will not give an Military/LEO type training to civilians.





So how much trouble is it to incorporate into a law enforcement agency? We could get nationwide CC too.

Its a win win situation.



I have often wondered this...not to mention the NFA benefits.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:24:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:45:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
If you could do that Marc, it would help a lot. I would like to see us get as much for our buck, so the more we can do the better.

When you go to sit down with him, please take a list of the different suggestions and see what you can come up with.



Will do. mark5pt56 spoke the other night for about an hour and he ran several ideas by me an is very interested in helping the Phase II group out. He also wants to make sure we get the most training for our money!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:37:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 9:40:03 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By M4arc:
If you guys can give me a few days I'll sit down with mark5pt56 and go over all the things we did last time and he will help us develop a course for phaseII. We can throw ideas around for months but I think it would be best if we started from an instructor standpoint since they are always developing course cirriculums like this. He can custom design one for us and we can use it as a base and tweak it.

What do you think?



This is an excellent idea. Mark5pt56 is an outstanding instructor and a great resource for developing the Phase II class. Glad you thought of it.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:48:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
This is an excellent idea. Mark5pt56 is an outstanding instructor and a great resource for developing the Phase II class. Glad you thought of it.



and you thought I was worthless
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:35:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 1:45:28 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
I don’t think we should get too far ahead of ourselves with the class itinerary for the Phase II. The smart plan would be to follow Mark5pt56's advice to the letter. He is a Blackwater instructor and deals with guys like us every day. He is familiar with our skill levels and what can realistically be accomplished in three days. By the time this class is held the skills learned in the original class will be over a year and a half old. Has everybody been practicing the skills and techniques learned in June? I'm sure some have, but not everybody. Remember these classes can only move at the speed of the slowest member. The Phase II class is just over a year away. Will everybody be capable of a "DELTA FORCE" assault class come a year from now? We should also keep in mind that Blackwater is placing restrictions on the types of training they will provide to civilians. Both Anthony and I have been told this several times in our dealings with Blackwater. We have 14 open spots for the Phase II class. The eleven guys who took original class, plus myself and two others from the 2nd Phase I class in April 2005. We should try to keep the itinerary just a simple progression in the skills learned in Phase I.

We should be focusing on:
- more transitions drills
- more drills done while moving.
- moving target drills
- more work on shooting from cover.

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 1:05:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 1:27:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I agree that we should keep moving the class forward from what we've learned so far, but I would still like to get as much as possible from the class.



I agree completely.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 1:28:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I agree that we should keep moving the class forward from what we've learned so far, but I would still like to get as much as possible from the class.



If mark5pt56 helps us out we'll get all we can handle and then some
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:15:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:45:13 PM EDT
Doug here,
It has been a while since I've been to the page and it sounds as if you guys are well on your way to another fun three days. I ran into Mark during a one day pistol and it was really good to see him. Missed the sunglasses and boonie cap though.
If I can help in anyway don't hesitate to ask, Mark T. will stear you in the right direction. Remembering there is only so much you can accomplish in three days. Question do you want to cover a lot of techniques a little bit or a reasonable amount of techniques a lot.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:45:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I agree that we should keep moving the class forward from what we've learned so far, but I would still like to get as much as possible from the class.



If mark5pt56 helps us out we'll get all we can handle and then some




I'm guessing he'll come up with things to make us all suffer.



I'm betting on it!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:17:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:25:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QKSLVR:
Doug here,
It has been a while since I've been to the page and it sounds as if you guys are well on your way to another fun three days. I ran into Mark during a one day pistol and it was really good to see him. Missed the sunglasses and boonie cap though.
If I can help in anyway don't hesitate to ask, Mark T. will stear you in the right direction. Remembering there is only so much you can accomplish in three days. Question do you want to cover a lot of techniques a little bit or a reasonable amount of techniques a lot.



Hey Doug! Glad to see you post here again and it was great to see you last month. BTW, nice Harley

I will catch up with Mark T soon but I would rather cover a reasonable amount of but cover them a lot...kinda like the learn to do one thing very well and move on idea. We could cover a lot over the three days but I'm afraid I would lose most of it in all the excitement and hussle. What's your opinion?

Either way, I should be fine as long as I take notes
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:08:45 PM EDT
VA and M4,
Thanks for the hello!
I have been tuning up my rifle, pistol, and shotgun skills since the class. I just finished a Bushmaster Carbine Instructor Course, intend on taking Carbine Operator Course the end of November first of December. I purchased another carbine, M-4, 16" fluted, mini Y-comp, Chip Mcormik trigger group, A.R.M.S system, foreward grip, flip up rear and front sights, Aim Point Comp, EOTEC, and a four power ACOG.
Everything I have read in your thread sounds right on track and no matter who instructs the class you will be challenged, I am sure of it.
Right now I am in the process of going to Afganistan as an instructor and will be there from January until July 2005.
Your knowledge base and you skill levels will challenge any instructor. I want to tell you how nice it was to instruct you guys last time and how challenging it was because of your ability with the firearms used. I was worn out to say the least.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:13:28 PM EDT
Hi Doug, did you go over the sandbox? I remember you mentioned you were going?

I will have to agree with covering a little a lot.
Low light
night shooting?
Transitions
weak hand shooting
Speed
Retention techniques
I don't know if firing the rifle w/ one hand is something that is taught?

I would appreciate Mark and Doug's input.

I am pleased with the improvement in my shooting skills after the last class. I sucked with my rifle, but now am becoming more competitive. And last month at an IPSC match I came in 3rd for my class.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:42:41 PM EDT
I know this has been mentioned but I belive there is a pistol shoothouse. Some more time with pistols would be good, some adverse angles and positions things like that. Shooting with a flashlight/lowlight. With carbine some time on the unknown distance range.

What is the definition of Military/LEO training ? I would maybe like to see if they could do some house clearing type tactics (usefull in home defence type situations) . Not like flashbangs or anything but not that we'd complain if they let us play with a flashbang
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:08:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ANGST:
I know this has been mentioned but I belive there is a pistol shoothouse.



Yes, it’s called the "Rogers Range". Marc and I used it for a couple of hours in the pistol coarse we took last month. I loved every minute of it! I will be certain to request some time is spent there during the pistol part of the Phase II class.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:15:24 PM EDT
Tagged because I hope to make both Classes
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:24:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ANGST:
I know this has been mentioned but I belive there is a pistol shoothouse. Some more time with pistols would be good, some adverse angles and positions things like that. Shooting with a flashlight/lowlight. With carbine some time on the unknown distance range.

What is the definition of Military/LEO training ? I would maybe like to see if they could do some house clearing type tactics (usefull in home defence type situations) . Not like flashbangs or anything but not that we'd complain if they let us play with a flashbang



I think we can throw out lowlight drills unless we want to pay over $1000 for the course. As it stands right now we are only scheduled for 3 8 hour days.

The unknown distance range is out and so is any clearing tactics. There will be adverse angles and positions and I think we could get the "Rogers" house unless it's already scheduled...which it probably is.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:31:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:47:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 3:18:41 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By M4arc:


The unknown distance range is out and so is any clearing tactics. There will be adverse angles and positions and I think we could get the "Rogers" house unless it's already scheduled...which it probably is.




You may want to check on the clearing tactics. They do offer "Building Searches in there course listing of the 5 day Pistol II class. I know we won't be doing 10 days worth of pistol training, but we maybe we could convince them of it.



Great idea! I'll call Monday and ask if this is possibility. No sense wasting mark5pt56's time if the answer is no.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 5:20:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:

I think we can throw out lowlight drills unless we want to pay over $1000 for the course. As it stands right now we are only scheduled for 3 8 hour days.

The unknown distance range is out and so is any clearing tactics. There will be adverse angles and positions and I think we could get the "Rogers" house unless it's already scheduled...which it probably is.



Not trying to sound like a dick but I would be very disappointed if we couldn't work this in.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 5:08:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By M4arc:


The unknown distance range is out and so is any clearing tactics. There will be adverse angles and positions and I think we could get the "Rogers" house unless it's already scheduled...which it probably is.




You may want to check on the clearing tactics. They do offer "Building Searches in there course listing of the 5 day Pistol II class. I know we won't be doing 10 days worth of pistol training, but we maybe we could convince them of it.



I'll bring it up but let's not get our hopes up. Notice that is a "Pistol II" class? That means you had to complete "Pistol I" first. As far as Blackwater is concerned we have only completed the One Day Pistol Class. To jump from that to "Pistol II" drills is a huge leap in the eyes of Blackwater.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 5:11:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sjauch:

Originally Posted By M4arc:

I think we can throw out lowlight drills unless we want to pay over $1000 for the course. As it stands right now we are only scheduled for 3 8 hour days.

The unknown distance range is out and so is any clearing tactics. There will be adverse angles and positions and I think we could get the "Rogers" house unless it's already scheduled...which it probably is.



Not trying to sound like a dick but I would be very disappointed if we couldn't work this in.



Again I'll bring it up but the price of $775 is for 3 8 hour days. In order to do low-light we will need to schedule a time when the...well, the light is low. That means extra range time and extra money. On top of that, everyone will need to purchase lights for both the handgun and carbine (I'm guessing).

I'll bring it up along with everything else and get it all on paper and then everyone can decide and Anthony can take it to Carol for final approval and price.
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 6:02:42 AM EDT
VA_Dinger -

I noted in the most recent Blackwater Tactical Weekly that Blackwater is offering a 10% discount on 2005 courses if you sign up before Dec. 31. Has Carol indicated whether or not this offer extends to our classes as well?

- Bill
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 6:07:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By sjauch:

Originally Posted By M4arc:

I think we can throw out lowlight drills unless we want to pay over $1000 for the course. As it stands right now we are only scheduled for 3 8 hour days.

The unknown distance range is out and so is any clearing tactics. There will be adverse angles and positions and I think we could get the "Rogers" house unless it's already scheduled...which it probably is.



Not trying to sound like a dick but I would be very disappointed if we couldn't work this in.



Again I'll bring it up but the price of $775 is for 3 8 hour days. In order to do low-light we will need to schedule a time when the...well, the light is low. That means extra range time and extra money. On top of that, everyone will need to purchase lights for both the handgun and carbine (I'm guessing).

I'll bring it up along with everything else and get it all on paper and then everyone can decide and Anthony can take it to Carol for final approval and price.



If class starts at 1100 and ends at 2000 you'd get +/- two hours of low light/night shooting.....
Link Posted: 11/2/2004 7:27:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2004 7:31:16 AM EDT by u-baddog]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By ANGST:
I know this has been mentioned but I belive there is a pistol shoothouse.



Yes, it’s called the "Rogers Range". Marc and I used it for a couple of hours in the pistol coarse we took last month. I loved every minute of it! I will be certain to request some time is spent there during the pistol part of the Phase II class.



I didnt go last time but I have a little input if you dont mind bending the rules on who can add to this thread ? Rules are made to be broken right /

Blackwater has the Rogers range (Rogers range is a outdoor computer controled steel range )plus two full shoothouses. Big shoot house 2 story (old) and another one called the bear den. (newer)

The Rogers range is cool for a group because everyone can have a port and shoot at the same time.
The shoot houses llimit the amount of shooters in them. If you are clearing rooms you can only have a couple of shooters at the same time. The shoot houses have bullet trap target stands that are on wheel so you can move them around the rooms. They are slower to use with a class because it cuts down on the people shooting at one time.

After the first few pics it is the newer but smaller bear den www.blackwateripsc.exis.net/Albums/04-18/index.html

This page is the Rogers range.
www.blackwateripsc.exis.net/Albums/07-24-04/index8.html

Link Posted: 11/2/2004 9:39:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2004 2:43:22 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By yrac:
VA_Dinger -

I noted in the most recent Blackwater Tactical Weekly that Blackwater is offering a 10% discount on 2005 courses if you sign up before Dec. 31. Has Carol indicated whether or not this offer extends to our classes as well?

- Bill



No, I was not aware of this. I was just quoted the new price of $775. I called today to ask about the 10% off and our other pending issues. Unfortunately, Carol must have been out of the office because all I got was her voice mail all day.
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 10:08:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2004 4:41:40 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
A low light section of the coarse will add $50 to each day it’s covered. I was considering having it added to one day of the coarse. Basically just a few hours of pistol + carbine low light training at the end of the last day. We can add it to all three days if we choose. Obviously this means everybody will be required to have a weapon mounted light on their handgun and carbine. We need to vote on this fairly quickly. I would like to have the Phase II itinerary completed in the next few weeks.

Please vote
Low Light Training:
(1.) No - Do not add to class intinerary
(2.) Yes - One day for a few hours (Pistol/Carbine) $50 added to cost of class.
(3.) Yes - All three days, for an hour or so at the end of each day. $150 added to cost of class.

Personally, I'm voting #2.
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 11:44:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 12:24:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I don't have any problems with some low light shooting, but I definitely don't want it on the third day. Some of us have to drive a few hours to get home on the third day.



I'd say thats one vote for #2.
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 2:14:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yrac:
VA_Dinger -

I noted in the most recent Blackwater Tactical Weekly that Blackwater is offering a 10% discount on 2005 courses if you sign up before Dec. 31. Has Carol indicated whether or not this offer extends to our classes as well?

- Bill



I forgot to ask about this today. Trust me, Monday morning it will be my #1 question.
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 4:06:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 4:56:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 5:07:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 5:08:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2004 5:51:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2004 6:06:42 AM EDT
I am fine with #2 or #3 for me. Maybe we can do low light for 2 days instead of all 3. One night pistol, the other rifle.

Hey Grant, I guess it is time I get one of those crappy lights for my rifle. Oh wait I can't Larue hasn't come out with the 9" yet
Link Posted: 11/6/2004 11:17:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Option #2 for me.....


C4




Grant, do you know any place to get a good weapons light?




NO CLUE as I only sell crappy lights!

C4



Hey wait a minute, I've got one of your crappy lights for a door prize, remember ?
Link Posted: 11/6/2004 6:43:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
A low light section of the coarse will add $50 to each day it’s covered. I was considering having it added to one day of the coarse. Basically just a few hours of pistol + carbine low light training at the end of the last day. We can add it to all three days if we choose. Obviously this means everybody will be required to have a weapon mounted light on their handgun and carbine. We need to vote on this fairly quickly. I would like to have the Phase II itinerary completed in the next few weeks.

Please vote
Low Light Training:
(1.) No - Do not add to class intinerary
(2.) Yes - One day for a few hours (Pistol/Carbine) $50 added to cost of class.
(3.) Yes - All three days, for an hour or so at the end of each day. $150 added to cost of class.

Personally, I'm voting #2.



I will go with any of the three options, count me as "abstaining".....if forced to count me for a vote, as in need to break a tie vote:

#2.
Link Posted: 11/7/2004 11:41:17 AM EDT
I would be happy with either 2 or 3 with a leaning to 3. Need to start looking at a holster now with a light on it.....

John
Link Posted: 11/9/2004 5:34:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2004 5:43:04 AM EDT by GUN N 4FUN]
planning on doing phase 1 class.
what ammo is recommened? since this big part of class, was wondering what types/brand first class used? how good did work for you?
Link Posted: 11/9/2004 7:04:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2004 7:58:07 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By yrac:
VA_Dinger -

I noted in the most recent Blackwater Tactical Weekly that Blackwater is offering a 10% discount on 2005 courses if you sign up before Dec. 31. Has Carol indicated whether or not this offer extends to our classes as well?

- Bill



I got a reply on this today. The 10% off deal is only for standard scheduled courses, not a custom course like ours. So, the price for the class is still $775 per student.

***Itinerary Update***
I submitted all of your suggestions and a request for low light training to the Blackwater training department. We should have something back in a few days. This will at least give us a starting point and something solid to discuss. Changes can be made if we are not 100% happy with the first proposal.
Link Posted: 11/9/2004 4:37:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2004 4:57:34 AM EDT
I am going to be scraping to goto class this year I don't know if I can afford a light. I do however have a shotgun

How about a little shotgunning for phase II ?
Link Posted: 11/10/2004 6:23:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ANGST:
I am going to be scraping to goto class this year I don't know if I can afford a light. I do however have a shotgun

How about a little shotgunning for phase II ?



If enough people are interested it certianly could be included.
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