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Posted: 1/15/2006 6:17:32 PM EDT
Luckily everyone trashed my UTE2 upper idea. I just received my A3 upper. (Thanks JTAC).

Now I need to order a front end. I'm thinking about going with the Bushmaster 14.5in M4 profile barrel with perm flash hider (chrome lined 1/7 twist).

Is this a good or bad choice? Somebody will say "Depends on what you use it for." It will spend 95% or more of it's time in the safe. 4% at an indoor range. 1% on Grandma's farm.

I already have a Bushy XM-15 16in HBAR so I don't want to build the exact same thing.

My thoughts were
14.5in M4 style (w/perm FH)
16in heavy fluted
16in M4 profile

That's the order of preference. 14.5 in good or bad? Also, what twist rate do I want ?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:22:36 PM EDT
I just put together an RRA M4 a couple of months ago. I used the M4 profile, 16 inch chrome lined barrel with 1/9 twist. It has been EXCELLENT in function and accuracy so far!
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:28:25 PM EDT
What do you think of the same thing but 14.5in?

With a shorter barrel, does it help decide which twist rate is best?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:51:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:
What do you think of the same thing but 14.5in?

With a shorter barrel, does it help decide which twist rate is best?



The downside to the 14.5 inch barrel is that you have to perm attach any muzzle device to bring it up to the legal length of 16". This makes it a pain if you ever wish to change sights or add free float handguards. As for the twist rate, it's actually decided more by the weight of the ammo you use. 1/9 is good for lighter loads 62gn and down while 1/7.7 is better for heavier loads (79 down to 55) etc.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:03:08 PM EDT
I thought about the sight and free float handguards. It's not much of a concern because I will probably not be changing either of those on this rifle. Those things would make a good excuse to build another rifle. I have plans for my next two black rifles lurking in my head already.

I normally shoot XM193 or WWB from Wama-Lart.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:18:13 PM EDT
Since you don't mind the perm. flash hider, have you considered one of the 14.7" barrels from CMMG with a perm. attached A2 flash hider? You get the legality of the 16" with the look of the military M4. Their barrels are 1/7, chrome lined. Take a look at their website.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:25:27 PM EDT
That seems almost identical to what I'm wanting (14.5in vs. 14.7in), but runs about $80 more expensive than the Bushmaster barrel.

What's the differences and do you think it would be worth the extra moneys?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:38:04 PM EDT
In my humble opinion, the CMMG barrels are better barrels and truer to Mil-Spec. For example:

1/7 CMMG vs 1/9 Bushmaster.

"F" FSB CMMG vs Standard FSB Bushmaster.

Parkerized under FSB CMMG vs Un-Parkerized under FSB Bushmaster.

M4 Ramped Barrel Extension CMMG vs Standard Barrel Extension Bushmaster.

I believe that Bushmaster only MP tests some barrels in a lot (even though they are all MP marked) whereas CMMG MP tests all of their barrels.

Both are 4150 steel and chrome lined however.

YMMV
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:43:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:
What do you think of the same thing but 14.5in?

With a shorter barrel, does it help decide which twist rate is best?



I've got a Colt/20 in standard AR 1/7 twist. It does fairly well with 55 gr or 62 gr ammo.
But I'd prefer the 1/9 twist on that rifle but I don't think it will give that better accuracy for the money.
The 16" barrel will give you a slight increase in velocity over the 14.5", doesn't make much difference in the feel or balance of the rifle. I just don't think it is worth the extra trouble to go with a 14.5 or 14.7 barrels and a permanently attached flash hider.
The free floated barrel/forearm is nice on a scoped rifle or on an AR you want to hang all kinds of extra stuff on. All the latest and greatest just ain't my thing when it comes to building ARs.
My RRA M4 is just pretty damn hard to beat in my estimation. And I have shot it at distances to 300 yds. At 200 yds, it's really remarkable with the 62 gr SS109 Lake City ammo for accuracy.
Avoid the hassle of the permanent flashhider and the expense. I'd recommend the 16" civilian M4 profile/chrome lined/ 1 in 9 twist/ with removable flashhider.
I've had a Colt Elite scoped with a Tasco SS 10x - 20 in stainless 1/9 twist, free floated handguard / Harris bipod and it seemed to be particular about ammo. The RRA chrome lined M4 barrel with the 1/9 twist doesn't seem near as particular with what I shoot in it. The make of the barrels or the free float handguard HAS to be the difference in the two because the twist was the same.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:46:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16:
In my humble opinion, the CMMG barrels are better barrels and truer to Mil-Spec. For example:

1/7 CMMG vs 1/9 Bushmaster.
The one I looked at was 1/9

"F" FSB CMMG vs Standard FSB Bushmaster.
I don't know what this is

Parkerized under FSB CMMG vs Un-Parkerized under FSB Bushmaster.
If I don't remove the FSB, will this make any difference?

M4 Ramped Barrel Extension CMMG vs Standard Barrel Extension Bushmaster.
My upper does not have the M4 cuts. Should the barrel be the same?

I believe that Bushmaster only MP tests some barrels in a lot (even though they are all MP marked) whereas CMMG MP tests all of their barrels.

Both are 4150 steel and chrome lined however.

YMMV



Thanks for the info. I added some questions above.

I should also add that $ makes a difference since unfortunately I'm on a gun budget.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:51:28 PM EDT
More questions:

I bought the HBAR with my last one because the salesman said it would discipate heat better than a thinner barrel as well as be more accurate by proventing barrel whip? Did he BS me out of an extra $18 bucks?

I really like the look of the HBAR fluted barrel. What's the benefit of these? I've heard they discipate heat the best since there is so much surface area on these. Is that true or no? How does the fluted version compare for accuracy?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:06:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 8:08:45 PM EDT by danc46]
Fluted barrels are a weight saver and not necessarily a barrel stiffener or better heat discipator than a standard heavy barrel. A heavy barrel makes a stiffer barrel, less likely to have barrel whip (affects accuracy) when heated up. Contrary to what so many say, fluting is strictly for shaving weight off of a barrel and still have the advantages of a stiff heavy barrel.
If you're going to hump a rifle for any distance, less weight is damn sure going to be appreciated.
If you're going to shoot hard and fast, the heavier barrel will hold its accuracy a little longer because it takes longer to heat up. As a barrel heats up, you get more barrel whip and accuracy starts to deteriorate.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:22:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:
More questions:

I bought the HBAR with my last one because the salesman said it would discipate heat better than a thinner barrel as well as be more accurate by proventing barrel whip? Did he BS me out of an extra $18 bucks?

I really like the look of the HBAR fluted barrel. What's the benefit of these? I've heard they discipate heat the best since there is so much surface area on these. Is that true or no? How does the fluted version compare for accuracy?



My thoughts on fluted barrels are after a lot of reading and reserch it's more hype than anything
UNLESS you get a spiral fluted barrel then it might really make a little difrence .....

the whole hbar thing is another matter all together I likem own 3 but once they get hot I "think" they hold the heat longer than a govt profile........

My latest build is a 16 inch govt profile and for a rifle that you plan on carrying any distance at all it is the way to go IMO

Permanently attached muzzle devices suck IMO unless its a CAN
But everthing is personal prefrence what you gain or lose between 14.5 or 16 probably aint enough to notice either way......it's more a matter of looks and what you want.

If it was me and I had an HBAR I would go with something lighter .... my rifle with the govt profile has shown some decent accuracy potential since none of my shooting with it has been off a bench its all been standing kneeling or prone unsoported and I ran 600 rnds through it the first outing with no barrel break in nonsense ........I shoot them in

fluting doesnt shave near the weight off a govt profile does ......

they covered 1/9 1/7 for you........

and all of my advice is worth just what you paid for it
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:27:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:

Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16:
In my humble opinion, the CMMG barrels are better barrels and truer to Mil-Spec. For example:

1/7 CMMG vs 1/9 Bushmaster.
The one I looked at was 1/9
The 1/7 twist is what the military uses. For most users the 1/9 would be fine

"F" FSB CMMG vs Standard FSB Bushmaster.
I don't know what this is
If you are using a flattop receiver, you should have a barrel with an "F" (for flattop) front sight base (FSB) which is again the mil-spec. The "F" FSB are .040" taller and most all backup iron sights are made to line up with these FSB's. Bushmaster makes a .040 taller sight post to go in their FSB's to make up the difference, but you would have to ask for this.

Parkerized under FSB CMMG vs Un-Parkerized under FSB Bushmaster.
If I don't remove the FSB, will this make any difference?
Again the true mil-spec calls for parkerizing under the FSB for additional protection. No you are not going to remove your FSB, but moisture can still get under your FSB and begin rusting.

M4 Ramped Barrel Extension CMMG vs Standard Barrel Extension Bushmaster.
My upper does not have the M4 cuts. Should the barrel be the same?
Yes, you should match the upper to the barrel. If yours doesn't have M4 ramps, you don't need an M4 ramped barrel

I believe that Bushmaster only MP tests some barrels in a lot (even though they are all MP marked) whereas CMMG MP tests all of their barrels.

Both are 4150 steel and chrome lined however.

YMMV



Thanks for the info. I added some questions above.

I should also add that $ makes a difference since unfortunately I'm on a gun budget.



If you are on a budget and don't plan to subject your rifle to any extremes, than the Bushmaster would be your best choice. I still think Bushmaster makes a barrel far better than a lot of other companies, I just think that a Colt or CMMG barrel is the best you can get since they meeet the mil-spec in every way.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:35:03 PM EDT
Damn, here is something me and ACman agree on!
I like a governement profile barrel on a standard AR! My Colt is better balanced and more enjoyable than shooting a HB AR.
I got the M4 profile on my RRA because of "resale" value should I decide to get rid of it. But my son took care of that - it belongs to him now.
That's OK, I"ll shoot it anytime I want!
Anyway, a lighter gun is a blessing if you have to carry it a distance.
Last time I went elk hunting in Colorado, I took two rifles. A heavy ass 30/06 and a much lighter 45/70 Ruger #3. At 9000 ft, I sure liked carrying that Ruger better than the 30/06!
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 11:28:07 PM EDT
whichever one you decide on make sure you break it in with a case or two of WOLF.


MLW>"<
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 3:54:21 AM EDT
I have a CMMG lower on my AR.....And personally I'd go with a CMMG upper before I'd go with a "bushy"....sorry but I'm not on the whole "Bushmaster" bandwagon. I about hate them just cause alot of people are like "its gotta be a bushy or its crap"...they can blow it out thier asses. And personally, from all the Soldier of Fortune magazines and "Weapons of Military and Law Enforcement" magazines I've read...I would definately stay away from a 14.5" perminant attached brake. I don't know what the pressure differences are between the 14.5" and the 16" models and I'm aware that we aren't going to be out in the sandbox with our toys like our troops are but the 14.5" barrel M4's our troops use suck! Failure to eject, misfires, overheating issues, slow muzzel velocities.......which we all should know the 5.56/223 round is supposed to be a very high speed projectile for it to do damage they way it was meant to do to flesh and bones n stuff....so the slow velocities of the Mil M4s aren't givin our troops what they need....NUMEROUS instances of 3 and 4 shots/ insurgent to get them to stop shooting back has been reported. So...IMHO.....and if you have the $$$$....get you an 18" midlength gas stsyem upper. Or, a 16" M4 with threaded barrel n bayonet cut out on the barrel. And if you need a / want a collapsable stock you can get the same one I have on my AR for $30 bucks through the sportsmansguide.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:12:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 6:13:46 AM EDT by DrBaker]

Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16:
"F" FSB CMMG vs Standard FSB Bushmaster.
I don't know what this is
If you are using a flattop receiver, you should have a barrel with an "F" (for flattop) front sight base (FSB) which is again the mil-spec. The "F" FSB are .040" taller and most all backup iron sights are made to line up with these FSB's. Bushmaster makes a .040 taller sight post to go in their FSB's to make up the difference, but you would have to ask for this.



Are the removeable carry handles made to work with the "F" FSB or the regular FSB?


Rat: Don't worry, I don't have a bushy hard-on, but us poor folk have to look for low prices.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:08:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:

Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16:
"F" FSB CMMG vs Standard FSB Bushmaster.
I don't know what this is
If you are using a flattop receiver, you should have a barrel with an "F" (for flattop) front sight base (FSB) which is again the mil-spec. The "F" FSB are .040" taller and most all backup iron sights are made to line up with these FSB's. Bushmaster makes a .040 taller sight post to go in their FSB's to make up the difference, but you would have to ask for this.



Are the removeable carry handles made to work with the "F" FSB or the regular FSB?


Rat: Don't worry, I don't have a bushy hard-on, but us poor folk have to look for low prices.



The removable carry handles "should" all be designed to work with the "F" FSB's since they go on flattops. However, I have used removable carry handles with standard FSB's just fine. There is just so much minute variation bewteem mfr's that you may or may not be able to sight in when using different combinations. If you use a removable carry handle on a flattop without an "F" FSB, you could always just buy the Bushmaster .040" taller front sight post if you run out of elevation adjustment. Don't sweat it to much.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:38:45 AM EDT
I assume the taller front sight pin is going to be cheap. I'll go ahead and order one just in case it's needed.

I'm still undecided on which barrel to get. I'll figure out something and get it ordered today. If all goes well, I'm hoping to be shooting this thing on Saturday.


Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 11:44:01 AM EDT
The barrel has been ordered. Now I need a collapsible stock.

Anybody have a 6 pos collapsible stock (or similar) that they would like to swap with a fixed stock, trap door model?

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:44:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:
I assume the taller front sight pin is going to be cheap. I'll go ahead and order one just in case it's needed.

I'm still undecided on which barrel to get. I'll figure out something and get it ordered today. If all goes well, I'm hoping to be shooting this thing on Saturday.


Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.



.040" taller front sight post is $4.95 at Bushmaster.
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