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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/3/2007 6:35:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2007 10:17:49 AM EST by SC-Texas]
What types of ammo is considered Armor piercing under:


§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.




§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(12) "Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.


Can any 5.56mm ammo be considered armor piercing?

Any LEOs or attorneys know the answer or have an opinion?
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 8:01:55 PM EST

§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(12) "Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.


While 5.56mm handguns exist, the ammunition is not designed primarily for penetrating armor nor is it principally used in pistols.
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 9:12:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:

§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(12) "Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.


While 5.56mm handguns exist, the ammunition is not designed primarily for penetrating armor nor is it principally used in pistols.


What about the 5.7x28mm ammo?
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 11:15:36 PM EST
I think the Texas def would need to be defined better for the 5.7x28 as who says what body armor is. leather jacket, II, IIA, III, IIIA?

I've looked multiple times at the Fed regs on it, and don't think the ss190 applies as AP. AFIK the round was developed for the P90 not the FiveseveN. IMHO, and it's been a many months since I've looked at the CFR on it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 5:15:11 AM EST
Sean: The only thing I can find is import reglations regarding the importation of steel core ammunition, but nothing in Texas or Federal Code regarding Armor Piercing Rifle Ammunition, only the reference you posted above.

"Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.

While 223 / 5.56 CAN be used in AR pistols, it is NOT designed to be used principally in pistols or revolvers.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 6:39:10 AM EST
All,
According to ATF M 5300.43 (6/14/95), armor piercing ammo is defined as ...
(i) a projectile or projectile core which maybe used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The definition is codified in Title 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B).

The pamphlet also lists AP ammo that is unlawful to import, manufacture or sell. The list:
KTW, all calibers
Arcane, all calibers
THV, all calibers (ID by a brass projo with a headstamp of SFM or THV)
Czech 9mm w/ a iron or steel core (ID by headstamp of a triangle, star and 49, 50, 51 or 52)
German 9mm (ID may have black tipped projo)
MSC, .25 cal. (ID by a hollow point brass bullet)
Black Steel AP, all calibers made by National Cartridge, ATL, GA
Black Steel Metal Piercing Ammo, all calibers see above
7.62 NATO AP (US M61)
7.62 NATO SLAP
PMC Ultramag .38 cal (made of brass)
Omnishock, .38 cal (ID by flat head lead bullet with steel core)
7.62x39mm w/ steel core

The following have been removed from the above list:
5.56mm SS109 or M855
.30-06 M2 AP (black tip)
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 8:02:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By hrt4me:

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:

§ 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(12) "Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.


While 5.56mm handguns exist, the ammunition is not designed primarily for penetrating armor nor is it principally used in pistols.


What about the 5.7x28mm ammo?


Just because there is a pistol chambered in that caliber doesn't mean is was designed primarily for penetrating armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 8:57:18 AM EST
Besides, 5.7 is 22 cal anyways. It dosent matter
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 9:38:24 AM EST
I've never heard of any sort of case involving this but the conventional wisdom is HANDGUN ammo converted or intended by the manufacturer to be armor piercing. I believe the standard used is a IIA vest.

Rifle cartridges in handguns (Contender etc) does not meet the definition.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 11:20:12 AM EST
Well.. be prepared to hear of one. Friend was arrested and changed with possessing class 3 armor piercing ammunition While I don't know the exact wording of the charge, the ammo in question was Golden Bear 223.

The department / officer in question obviously doesn't know WTF they're talking about as I'm sure Sean will shortly correct them on.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 12:02:55 PM EST
I was curious if I was missing something.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 1:22:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jen:
Well.. be prepared to hear of one. Friend was arrested and changed with possessing class 3 armor piercing ammunition While I don't know the exact wording of the charge, the ammo in question was Golden Bear 223.

The department / officer in question obviously doesn't know WTF they're talking about as I'm sure Sean will shortly correct them on.


What agency is this?
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 2:02:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By AKJEFF:

Originally Posted By Jen:
Well.. be prepared to hear of one. Friend was arrested and changed with possessing class 3 armor piercing ammunition While I don't know the exact wording of the charge, the ammo in question was Golden Bear 223.

The department / officer in question obviously doesn't know WTF they're talking about as I'm sure Sean will shortly correct them on.


What agency is this?


Hempstead Police Department located in Waller county.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 3:40:22 PM EST
http://gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=FC-XM855-qty1000

is this armor piercing?
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 4:10:40 PM EST
So, they want to pop this guy under Tx law for possession of AP ammo?
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 4:34:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By microsuck1:
Besides, 5.7 is 22 cal anyways. It dosent matter


No such stipulation in the Texas Code.

Under US code

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


is where it gets grey.

Full jacketed projo, yep
Larger than .22, yep .224 (yes I know, splitting hairs, but it is the ATF after all, shostring MG anyone?)
Designed and intended for a handgun, I don't believe it was.
Jacket weight is greater than 25% of the whole? Not sure, never cut one open before.

The above applies to SS190 and ss192, as they are not permitted for civy consumption.

ss190 core material is AL and a steel penetrator with a copper jacket.
the ss192 is copper jacket and AL core.

The legal ss195lf is copper jacket and AL core same as ss192, but with a lead free primer.

The only difference in ss190 and m855 (ss109) is one has a lead core the other is AL and about 40grn difference in weight.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 4:55:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By soowah:
So, they want to pop this guy under Tx law for possession of AP ammo?
Yep. Exactly what they're trying to do. They seized his AR w/ EOTech and 4 loaded magazines of ammunition during a stop, and when he later went to pick them up they told him a felony warrant was out due to his possessing class 3 cop killer armor piercing ammunition and arrested him.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 5:29:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2007 6:06:17 PM EST by SigZiggy]
So he was driving around with 4 mags loaded with AP .223 and his AR - and he got pulled over for what? Was he driving to a match? The range? Any reason for the particular ammo instead of standard .223 or are you saying that it's standard .223 and he still got pinged for it?

ETA - Golden Bear .223 appears to be available in either HP or SP, neither of which would be applicable to issue a felony warrant solely on AP ammunition alone. Do you happen to know the EXACT type of bullet he was arrested for? It would have to have a hardened steel core (or tungsten carbide) to be AP. Maybe he can take the ammo elsewhere and have it properly analyzed...

AP - Metal Jacket, lead and hardened steel core
FMJ - Metal Jacket, lead core, standard hardball bullet
HP/JHP - Metal jacket, lead core, expansive hole
SP/JSP - Metal jacket, lead core, semi-jacketed bullet with exposed lead at bullets' nose
Hydrashock - Metal jacket, lead, expansice hole, steel core (not to be confused with the AP hardened steel core)
Etc, etc....
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 6:02:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2007 6:03:50 PM EST by Texas_Infidel]
Looks like standard .223


Originally Posted By Jen:
the ammo in question was Golden Bear 223.



Originally Posted By SigZiggy:
So he was driving around with 4 mags loaded with AP .223 and his AR - and he got pulled over for what? Was he driving to a match? The range? Any reason for the particular ammo instead of standard .223 or are you saying that it's standard .223 and he still got pinged for it?


ETA: Saw your ETA after post
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 6:04:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2007 6:07:10 PM EST by SigZiggy]
I noticed that after checking it out. Hard to believe it could possibly be AP for 5 bucks a box...

ETA - No problem I was probably ETA while you were typing. I have an issue with editing each post
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 6:18:30 PM EST
Sig, it doesn't matter WHAT type of bullet!

You are an LEO - Read the statute and tell me why it matters what type of 5.56mm he possessed under Texas law.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 7:15:03 PM EST
Man, I'm still scratching my head on this deal. Why would they seize his firearm to begin with? Was it a pistol AR, SBR or standard length? What was the initial reason for the stop, did the stop result in an arrest and consequent inventory of the vehicle?

The only way I can see this resulting in a charge is if the AR was a pistol and the officer didn't know the difference between WWB, Golden Bear and real deal m995.

This is just weird.

Then again I'm just a guy who surfs the internet at night. <shrug>
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:28:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2007 6:28:50 AM EST by Jen]
The AR was a standard Bushmaster (IIRC), it was not an SBR, it was not a Pistol, it was a legal rifle and in the same configuration as shipped from the manufacturer (other than the EOTech obviously). When he was stopped he was asked if he had any weapons in the vehicle, he admitted he did and they took the weapon at that time.

The ammunition was standard, commercially available, golden bear .223 ammunition. It was NOT AP at all, that's the issue.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:06:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jen:
The AR was a standard Bushmaster (IIRC), it was not an SBR, it was not a Pistol, it was a legal rifle and in the same configuration as shipped from the manufacturer (other than the EOTech obviously). When he was stopped he was asked if he had any weapons in the vehicle, he admitted he did and they took the weapon at that time.

The ammunition was standard, commercially available, golden bear .223 ammunition. It was NOT AP at all, that's the issue.



If thats the case-thats very sad on the agency's part
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:32:27 AM EST
What's sad is that it's going to cost this guy several thousand to defend against bogus charges and get his property back.

*SMIRK*
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 8:00:10 AM EST
Jen,

I just sent you an IM about something else.

Well, looks like the law was not violated, so it should be the police who should be made aware of this fact and pressure put on them. Shouldn't he be able to sue the department for damages and false arrest? Have him contact the press maybe...
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 11:45:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2007 11:48:34 AM EST by MauserMark]
EDIT*

I guess the adage that is always posted holds true, "all guns at anytime in your car are illegal."
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:05:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
EDIT*

I guess the adage that is always posted holds true, "all guns at anytime in your car are illegal."


Not under current state law, they aren't.

Police tend to just be ignorant of these things in some areas, and that can cause all manner of hell for a law abiding citizen.

I've been to the area this supposedly happened in, and all I can say is that I'm suprised Barney didn't take the bullet from his pocket, load it in his .38 and shoot himself in the foot the moment the person in question admitted there was a firearm in his vehicle.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 4:00:00 PM EST
Ignorance of the law goes both ways
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 8:39:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jen:
What's sad is that it's going to cost this guy several thousand to defend against bogus charges and get his property back.

*SMIRK*


If he is smart, he will file suit against the police department not only for false arrest but violating his rights. He could walk away with a little extra cash in his pocket.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:11:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 5:26:02 PM EST by SigZiggy]

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Sig, it doesn't matter WHAT type of bullet!

You are an LEO - Read the statute and tell me why it matters what type of 5.56mm he possessed under Texas law.


I agree, I was interested in finding out what type it was so I could try to understand the actions of the officer. I couldn't understand why he/they made that call to seize the weapon, etc in the first place, but if there was some intent then it sits better - I assumed there may have been more going on which was why I asked why he got pulled over and what he was up to at the time. I'd be interested in reading the police report.

The type of bullet matters to the officer because that is how he would have to explain his (improper) "classification" of the ammunition to even justify his actions of seizing a legally owned weapon, the non AP-ammo and later somehow getting a warrant issued that apparently was based on something other than probable cause because there doesn't appear to be any based on what little information we have.

At least if it was actually AP it wouldn't be so comical


Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:43:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:


At least if it was actually AP it wouldn't be so comical





until the whole story is out I don't see any comedy at all
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:18:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:

Originally Posted By StealthCRF:

until the whole story is out I don't see any comedy at all


The comedy is in the error, not the event. Perhaps the smiley face was a bit much so I removed it until we have the whole story.


ahhh i understand.



Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Golden bear, steel case 55grn HP.


HP as armor piercing.... armored cav. better start cutting the noses off their SABOT rounds. Or maybe the ammo is intended to aim away from target and try to hit as hard as possible w/ the ejected steel cases???
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:55:59 PM EST
This whole thing sounds bizarre. I'm thinking there may be more to the story, but if not then it wouldn't be the first time a police officer jumped the gun and then tried to back pedal by filing an additional bogus charge.

Please keep us informed as to how the situation plays out. I'm interested to see what the end result will be.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:12:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:17:25 PM EST by Fister]
Anyone we know?

Whats his bail set at? Is he out on bail?

NRA involved yet?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:48:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Metalryder:

Hempstead Police Department located in Waller county.



Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:13:32 AM EST
The problem is that it doens't matter what else is invovled in teh story.

There is no justification for a felony charge of possession of a prohibited weapon "AP ammo".



It does not excuse this charge.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:20:53 AM EST
This smells like a gun grab by a bunch of crooked cops.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:59:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Martinus_Turonis:
This smells like a gun grab by a bunch of crooked cops.

I would say it's a gun grab by a bunch of stupid cops who don't know what they are doing! I'm NOT saying that all cops are stupid, I'm ex LEO myself, but some are uneducated about firearms and make incredibly stupid mistakes based on old wives tales.

If you ever watch the program Dallas SWAT you can see what I'm talking about, one of the SWAT officers shows a 18" barrel shotgun, says "This is a cop killer, it will go through both sides of a vest!", remember he is talking about a 12 riot gun!
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 12:07:17 PM EST
I hadn't thought about the gun grab, Hawk911 here lost his AK pistol for a bogus stop and felony charge which later was dropped. He never got the AK back as far as I know.

He also admitted to having it in the car.

Based on what I've read here and the other post, I think I will make them get a search warrart to look at it. They can still take it and charge me but you have a better paper trail for your lawsuit. I'm getting closer to retirement age I could use the money.

I haven't been stopped for several years and the last two times they asked me to get out of the vehicle. I will lock it behind me so they have no reason to look and locked with me outside it's also NO threat.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 1:18:39 PM EST
I believe this situation is a gun grab mandated by the department for the purpose of aquiring high quality weapons. There are some police dept.s that do just that. They confiscate weapons, vehicles, or other personal property based on some bogus charge and then force the rightful owners to sue to recover the property. When the property is only worth a few thousand, it's usually not worth the expense to sue. The feds won't do anything even though it's a civil rights violation of the fourth amendment because they do the same thing.
The Hempstead police are crooked in my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:30:57 PM EST
The rifle in question is a decked out Bushmasterr M4 style. Railed handguards, BUIS rail panel..all factory from Bushmaster. Also a Eotech 551 I do believe.
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