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Posted: 3/16/2011 2:22:44 AM EST
What's the concensus about this type of stock and the legality on the AR15 platform?

Does the stock constitute as a pistol grip?
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 8:21:58 AM EST
Please let us all know what your jury says
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 8:40:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By njJoniGuy:
Please let us all know what your jury says


There are other thumbhole stock semi-autos out there that are NJ legal.

Ruger Mini-14 Target
Mak90
Beretta Storm

So what is the issue? Would the stock be considered a "stock" or "pistol grip"

But thanks for the contribution!

Link Posted: 3/16/2011 9:04:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By 223Rem:
There are other thumbhole stock semi-autos out there that are NJ legal.
...Beretta Storm ...

I happen to have a CX4 Storm
But I sure wouldn't have the plain muzzle threaded (for example)
Too much risk of needing to spend my 401K on attorney fees
Evil features are just not worth it, imho.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:08:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 4:09:12 PM EST by zulthor]
First let me say I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice...I have researched this subject extensively looking at all of the available case law and statutes available.

I would say that there are no cases on point about that issue. There are 3 statutes in other jurisdictions that suggest that thumbhole stocks are not per say pistol grips in that the statutes make a particular point to mention thumbhole stocks even though they had already mentioned pistol grips.
I think there's a strong argument to be made for it not being a pistol grip. That being said against that argument they would likely present that there was a ATF comments on ATF Notice No. 807 which say that the ATF believes thumbhole stocks are pistol grips and they were not mentioned in the statute because they didn't feel like there was a need to mention them.

New jersey's district attorneys suck huge donkey dick and based on what i've read about recent cases...they would probably go with "you're guilty until you can get a jury to say you're not guilty" mentality. That's obviously a situation you don't want, nor would you want to foot the bill for the legal fees even if you did win.

If you want a thumbhole stock, you should probably get a perm. brake/comp on it or just get a barrel that isn't threaded.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:37:25 PM EST
Please, Please and Please

Do NOT call the State Police and Ask !!!!!!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 7:20:08 PM EST
"When dealing with guns, the citizen acts at his peril", Superior Court of New Jersey, Appellate Division, Judges SHEBELL, BAIME, and BRAITHWAITE in STATE v. PELLETERI, Oct. 21, 1996.

This quote exemplifies the attitude towards firearms in NJ. The NJ firearm statutes are vague and devoid of common sense. The current attorney general guidelines on "assault weapons" are over 15 years old. You are ultimately subject to the whim of the police, prosecutor, judge, and jury. Mere possession without criminal intent can cost you 6 figures of legal fees and fines not to mention significant jail time and loosing your firearm rights in any state forever.

NJ has about 8 million people who hate guns and maybe only a 1000 gun people. So when you exercise your 2nd amendment rights in NJ, there is a high probability anyone you will interact with will be vehemently anti-gun and will treat you like a criminal. The law won't save you. Just ask Brian Aitken or the kid who was arrested for handgun possession when he had a airsoft in his car, or the guy who shot an attacking pit bull and was charged with handgun possession, or the CCW permit holder from Utah arrested for handgun possession in his declared checked bag at Newark Liberty airport or the numerous people arrested over the years for possession of "assault weapons" when their weapons were perfectly legal.

I would think thumbhole stocks would be OK as they were used to comply with pistol grip ban of the '94 Clinton AWB, but my concern is they are uncommon and you could encounter a police officer unfamiliar with guns who thinks they look evil and would arrest you first and ask questions later.

My advice has always been to have guns in NJ that look like everybody else's. I run a target crown, low profile gas block and an A2 stock. Hopefully, there should be no way they can think I have a collapsible stock, bayonet lug or flash suppressor. I would love to have a pinnned Magpul stock, PWS FSC-556 compensator and a regular FSB but to me its not worth the risk of wearing cuffs on the road side trying to explain to some well meaning police officer why I don't possess an assault weapon! My assessment of your question is any potential benefit of a thumbhole stock over an A1 or A2 stock and pistol grip doesn't justify the substantial risk.
Link Posted: 3/17/2011 9:30:05 AM EST
Evan Nappen successfully defended a NJ gun owner back in 1996 who had a MAK90 with thumbhole stock. The Judge found in his decision that the rifle in question did NOT constitute an assault weapon under NJ law.
Link Posted: 3/17/2011 10:39:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
Evan Nappen successfully defended a NJ gun owner back in 1996 who had a MAK90 with thumbhole stock. The Judge found in his decision that the rifle in question did NOT constitute an assault weapon under NJ law.


Do you know if it had a threaded muzzle/removable brake/flash hider? Most of the MAK90's i've seen pictures of seem to either not be threaded or have no muzzle devise.
Link Posted: 3/17/2011 11:31:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
Evan Nappen successfully defended a NJ gun owner back in 1996 who had a MAK90 with thumbhole stock. The Judge found in his decision that the rifle in question did NOT constitute an assault weapon under NJ law.


Do you know if it had a threaded muzzle/removable brake/flash hider? Most of the MAK90's i've seen pictures of seem to either not be threaded or have no muzzle devise.


He didn't specifically say but back then none that I know of came from the Factory with with anything on the end of their barrels. All the barrels I've seen from that time period were just plain end.
Link Posted: 3/17/2011 3:43:31 PM EST
Odds are it was set up as a ban compliant norinco, but rather fell under scrutiny because it was an "AK type rifle" not due to the fact that it had a thumbhole stock.
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