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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:45:00 PM EDT
First off, I haven't been in MO that long, so if there is something similar out there, please let me know.

But after wandering over to the Florida forum, I've gotten really interested in what they got going on with their FDCC.



Is anyone else interested in setting up something similar? I don't know if it is doable, or if enough people are interested, but I thought I’d plant the idea in everybody’s head here and now.

If we were to try this, here is what I would hope to achieve with the group:

1. To enhance our DEFENSIVE shooting abilities in a safe but realistic environment, with a focus on our beloved 'black rifle' and other military style longarms.
2. To attract new members to the world of the 'black rifle' and to teach them the proper shooting skills and safety procedures.
3. To build friendships within the Missouri/IL/KS shooting community.

and most importantly

4. To have fun!

Here is what I’m looking for as far as structure:

In order to keep things fun, I think we need to keep it simple. I don’t know about you guys, but I think some folks have been turned off by competitive shooting in general due to the dictionary-sized rulebooks that often accompany them. In keeping with the idea of a bunch of friends shooting together for fun and to develop skills, perhaps a small set of rules (of course safety will not be sacrificed in exchange for brevity) is in order.

I personally want to focus on carbine/rifles in military calibers, but I don’t want to exclude anyone. Perhaps if this works, we could add shotgun, handgun or even subgun/MG to the mix, but for now, let’s keep to carbines/rifles.

I think to keep it enjoyable and keep things moving at a good pace, NO CLASS divisions. That means a guy with a SKS, shoots next to the guy with the tricked out M4. Maybe we could modify this if the majority is not in agreement. Perhaps an open class and a stock class, but again, more rules usually equals less fun… But skill will ultimately decide the matches. Personally, I got a fair share of gadgets, but in my own mind, I’m not a skilled shooter, hence my desire to LEARN and IMPROVE!

So with this in mind, I’m going to run over to the Florida board and see if they can help get us rolling with suggestions and general guidelines.

Please let me know if anyone has suggestions.

My questions:

What do we need, materials, people, etc…?
Range time, how to secured some time at a public (or private if someone belongs to one or has some pull) range for shoots?
Rules, what do you guys want to see? Particularly with regards to class divisions?
How often, and where?

Also, if anyone has any experience as a firearms instructor (civ, Mil, LE, doesn’t matter) and is willing to give some helpful advice regarding setting this up, that would be greatly appreciated!

I think this is a great idea. I don’t have a lot of free time, but I am willing to try to get this thing rolling if I get some help and some positive feedback from the MO folks. I would love to start shooting on a regular basis with the local crew, and this would give us a good reason to do it.

Let me know what you think!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:01:38 PM EDT
I would love to get involved. I live just north of downtown KC. I have noticed the Florida club as well and thought it would be excellent to have something similar.

My only problem is that I am leaving in the next 7 to 14 days for a 9 month Iraq deployment.

I would be willing to solicit local gunshops for support/sponsorship after I return. Maybe they can give club members a discount or something.

You can email me at brent.sauer@us.army.mil if you want to discuss it further off-line.

I will anxiously watch this thread for follow up posts.

Best regards,

Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 2:08:50 PM EDT by Cutter75]
Alos check out the Texas Hometown board...
Protac Global advertises on AR15.com and has done some Carbine Tactical classes exclusively for AR15.com members...
Chris @ Protac might be able to help us out. I'll ask him.
Read the threads... everyone that has participated says it was a BLAST, and want to continue training - gaining experience...

I agreed with HKocher simple is better, and will keep it fun...
but the focus is to gain experience by doing...

We most likely have a lot of experience within our ranks, and other members can share the knowledge, maybe even lead a class/course...

Check out "Conquest" on the History Channel...
They are running a show on Tactical Teamwork.
Squad/Team level training...

As I've stated in other threads this will foster friendships, and help all of us to learn to function in any situation as a team...

I am in

"neccessary for a well-trained militia"
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:23:10 PM EDT
I'm in
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:00:51 PM EDT
I'm in
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:05:44 PM EDT
Maybe I could make it occasionally but I couldn't be a full time member.
Where would this club be based or would it float?
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:59:41 PM EDT
HKocher, I'll help you organize it. I'm done with law school in a few days and will be studying for the bar exam all summer, but I can dedicate time to this.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:18:52 PM EDT
Okay guys, thanks for the responses. Keep in mind that this is all in the early stages so nothing is written in stone yet, but I'll try to answer some questions as they are posed. Also, remember that this will be OUR club, not MINE, so I'm listening to all the ideas out there.


I'll drop you an email later tonight.
Stay safe over there, and don't worry, we'll still be here when you get back!


Thanks for the good ideas. As far as the Carbine classes, I'd love to take one, but right now, I don't have the money for that. But do contact him and see what he's got going on at his neck of the woods.

BTW, I want to keep this as CHEAP as possible. Meaning costs would be VERY minimal to cover paper, materials for the courses etc. I have no idea what it will end up being, but if it will work, I'd do donations only, but I can't cover costs myself. Either way, we're talking dollars per shoot, not any type of membership fee or anything. Ideally, we could get materials for the targets and stands (as well as 'walls' etc. for the course) on a donation basis if anyone has any spare plywood, 2x4s, etc. laying around. Someone probably has a line on cheap targets.


The way I envision it is that we are ALL members. Once you go to a shoot, you are in. No membership fee. I imagine we would have to set up some sort of system so that someone could be 'uninvited' but that would only be because of extreme disregard for safety of the members, after repeated warnings.
Also, perhaps members that contribute the most time and effort to the events in terms of volunteering could be 'elected' to some kind of 'board' so they would have a bit more say in the rules and regulations. But I don't want to turn this into any elitist crap, someone has to run the show, but everyone should have an equal say once they have been to a shoot or two.

Where would the club be?
That is the biggest question, and perhaps the most important. New-arguy, who organized the FDCC emphasized that this might be the most difficult step, and I believe him.

I'm not sure if this will end up at a private or public range, as I'm not sure which will be easier to obtain permission to use for the events. As far as where, that depends on where we can get it. If anyone has any good contacts, now is the time to use them. Also keep in mind, that we don't want to pay to use a range unless we have to. Low costs, remember?

As far as floating, that is a good idea, but it may not be practical at first, since that means getting permission at multiple ranges. But we should keep that in mind for the future.

My first instinct is to use Columbia for a staging ground. Yeah, I live in STL, but Columbia seems more central to STL, and KC. It might not be fair for the KC members to drive to STL, and I know that I don't want to drive to KC every shoot. Plus the Mid-MO crew has history in Columbia because that's where we've always held our shoots. Finally, there are several Mid-MO members in Columbia, so perhaps they could help get us approved for a range, not to mention handle some logistical issues come time to shoot.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:30:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
HKocher, I'll help you organize it. I'm done with law school in a few days and will be studying for the bar exam all summer, but I can dedicate time to this.


I knew I could count on you. Good luck with your finals and the bar. We'll work something out, plus you'll need some breaks between hitting the books...

That brings up another issue: timeline.

I have no timeline right now. I'd like to do it as soon as possible, but we should do it right the first time. That being said, finding a range that will host the event may take the longest time and the most effort.

So I have no idea. But I would like to do the introductory match sometime this summer if that is possible. But that is up in the air right now.

Another big issue, how often? Once a range is secured, this will become more clear, but I think it is essential that we set a routine, and stick to it. That way the club does not 'go away' due to apathy. Also, we will probably need to secure range time well in advance, this will be easier if we shoot on a regular schedule (every first Sat. of the month, for example). Thirdly, people will know to ask off work in advance.

I think that once a month, might be pushing it a bit at first. Maybe every two months, I don't know, I'll put up a poll for that later on...
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 7:12:00 PM EDT
Realistically it'd have to do w/ the location. KC area would probably work for me (I'm in Topeka, KS... 1 hr or so west of KC).

Idea sounds good, low cost sure doesn't hurt... but location would be the key for me.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:47:05 PM EDT
If CHEAP and friendly then I would like to participate and learn.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 4:49:46 AM EDT
I would be in depending on time, etc..
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 7:31:08 AM EDT
HKocher -
I can also volunteer time to help with organizing this...

I agree with all of your premises for this...
Inexpensive ; Open Membership ; Simple ; Fun

I response to your questions or proposals -

I can check with Jim Loveless from the CA, and see if we can use the Finger Lakes Range on a regular basis... could also ask him about "Floating" this between different CA ranges... I'll look into finding a Triangle of ranges within easy driving for all...
if it exists, then we can "study" the feasibility of rotating classes to maximize participation...

All we would need is some portible walls or sections(2 to 4)...
Donated materials is good, but if all of us chip in $10 bucks, we could buy the materials @ Home Depot, and have a party building our props...
Of course, left over funds go to beer

I'd like to do this one Saturday in July - sort of a dry run. It will help us to judge from the exercise where to take it from there...

Agreed, FIXED time each month/bi-month so we can easily prepare...

We'd like to have you participate as often as you want. And you are sure welcome...

Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:35:58 AM EDT
Update. Okay, it looks like this could really going to happen, as long as we hammer out the details. I want to have some ideas on paper tonight. Hopefully I will post more thoughts by tomorrow.


Absolutely. Cheap and friendly are two of my main priorities.


We'd be happy to have you. Remember this isn't going to be a snobby shooting club were if you miss one match, you're out. If you can make it to a match, great, if not, we'd see you at the next match.

So I'm going to work on some ideas for rules and procedures tonight and run them by you guys. It looks like we got guys working on securing a range, so who knows, this might become a reality sooner than I thought.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:43:33 AM EDT

I like Finger Lakes, if that is doable, I think it would work out great. As I said before, Columbia is a good meeting point, because it is pretty much midway between STL (my home) and KC. In the future, if all goes well, floating could be a good option.

If you could contact your guy at the CA, that would be great. If we could get this going by July, I'd be a happy man.

I will email you later to discuss some issues.

Link Posted: 5/7/2003 10:23:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2003 10:28:48 AM EDT by Cutter75]
OK, here's what I've found so far...
Jim is out of the office today, but a co-worker said that the Rocky Forks Lake Range (Finger Lakes CA) is an unsupervised/open range.
I take that to mean we can do just about anything as long as we clean-up after ourselves...
Here's the Brochure for the range...
On the far right under the bass are the references to the range.

I've found three other CA ranges for "Floating"
should we want to do that -

Truman Management Lands near Clinton (SE of KC)
Marshall Junction Wildlife Area (South of I-70 between KC & Columbia)
Little Indian Creek CA (South of St. Clair between Rolla & St. Louis)
Two of these would put us closer to the KC/SW MO members, and the last to the St.Lou folks...

The Green Valley Rifle Gun Club, sounds like a nice facility, but the membership is $125.00 per year (pro-rated)would cost $87.50 per person to join in July...
They have lots of organized classes ($29.00 fees)
for handgun/rifle training, but this is mostly a rigid program. It could be an alternate way to go if want...
Note: I added this just to give everyone a reference, primarily for "cost"...

The CA ranges are free, and we can us that club fee money for bullets, beer, or material as far as I'm concerned...

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Link Posted: 5/7/2003 4:58:23 PM EDT
In-laws are from St. Charles/St. Anne/Pattonville area ("North County" STL area).
Also have friends in Belleville IL.

Would love to participate occassionally, and would let Belleville folks know about events. (push 'em to join ARFCOM [:)}
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 6:55:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cutter75:

Marshall Junction Wildlife Area (South of I-70 between KC & Columbia)

Marshall Junction is really small, two steel benches/tables. One backstop (both dirt mounds ala bulldozer) at ~25 yards and one at ~65 yards.

There is one just north of Knob Noster on Hwy 23 I believe that is larger but morning hours are restricted due to wetlands preserve nearby or something If I remember correctly (only went once).
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 7:06:44 PM EDT
Little Indian Creek would probably be a no-go also. It's a little hole in the wall. A few shooting stations shooting into the side of a hill at maybe 40-50 yds.

Now that I know how to host pics on my webspace, I'll try and take some pics this weekend for you all to see.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:25:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2003 9:26:45 PM EDT by HKocher]
Sorry, I just got home from watching my nieces all evening and I'm beat, so no updates for tonight. I'll read this all and try to email some of you guys tomorrow.

But it looks like things are progressing well. Now that we've got this ball rolling, it won't be hard make this a reality.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 9:28:43 PM EDT
Ok, Finger Lake it is...

Actually it is equidistance from everywhere else in the State...
Maybe it is the more practical choice...

Link Posted: 5/8/2003 11:54:50 AM EDT
Put me on the list!
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:01:12 AM EDT
Sorry I've been away from the boards for awhile, due to work, but I think this is a great idea.

I'll help get the ball rolling, and help organize this thing. I just got off the horn with Cutter75, and he's looking into getting us a permanent permit out at Finger Lakes.

Sounds good!
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:30:51 AM EDT
Jim Loveless is emailing me the permit form for Fingers Lake (actually called Rocky Forks Lake Range - has a more manly sound to it than "fingers")... -ha,ha

Patriot Day Shoot
He said they have (3) sections - 25, 50 and 100 yard ranges...
He would only require us to leave some shooting positions open for the general public.
Otherwise, have fun...

He said using the facility with our own targets is no problem as long as we clean up after ourselves. The cut-off for using the range without a permit is (9) people. (10) and above requires a permit.
So maybe the first tactical gathering should be small so we can see how easy it is to set-up, and do some dry runs...

I plan to establish a working relationship with Jim. Do not want to overwhelm him with too many demands too quickly...
but overtime, I will ask about a pole shelter for props, or a corner of the range for a tarp to store stuff...

Also - How do I load pictures on this forum???
I've designed some props for everyone to preview and need help loading...

Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:21:11 AM EDT
Just got an email reply from Sableco
I aasked them about discounts for tactical gear if we order "in quantity", and asked if they would be a sponsor for our club, and provide "give-aways" for Club members as prizes for best shooter for the day...

Here is their reply -

Glen, always willing to help a fellow AR15’r out, we can supply discount in bulk please let us know what you had in mind, margins vary on different items we will be able to offer more savings on certain items. We would be happy to donate some items.

Thank you

Robert Stanfield, Sales Manager


309-496-3030 or 309-496-3020

PO Box 325

Rapids City Illinois 61278

Cool, huh???

MODDC has a sponsor before the first shot is fired

HKocher -
I will start a new thread for gear. We would need to order together, but we will wait till this gets farther along...
Stuff I envision us ordering are items like -
CQB Slings...
Knee/Elbow pads...
Tactical vests (for mags, etc)...
Dropleg Holsters...
Mag pouches...

I personally have been shopping for the BlackHawk Products, and Sableco has the best price going...
Now it will be even cheaper if we by in bulk...

Link Posted: 5/10/2003 3:27:54 PM EDT
For the St. L area folk I do know there are a few members of Benchrest here, I am sure we could reserve a range for at least a few hours as long as it isn't too often. I also remember some conservation areas being reserved for some groups though I have no idea who they were. (Reifschneider CA for one)
I also met with a M1 Garand group at a range (whose name I can not remember) just north of columbia. They had the back section of the range reserved for them. Outside of the St. L area I have little knowledge. I do know however that in Mark Twain National Forest it is legal to target shoot, camp, picnic, etc. legally. Of course finding your way around there is the real trick.
Hmm... How about a meet in MTNF? I would have to verify this but I believe the restrictions would be quite minimal. Full-auto allowed, I don't know about pyrotechnics. Just about any targets as long as they are all cleaned up at the end of the day. Just a thought, I will have to check up on this idea if anyone is interested.
Thats all for now, got to go look out the window and see if any tornadoes are nearby...bu bye..
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 10:46:26 PM EDT
No big updates right now, but things are progressing pretty well.


Drop me an email and we can chat about things.


Thanks for the ideas, forgive my ignorance, but what is MTNF?
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:15:45 PM EDT
MTNF= Mark Twain National Forest
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 10:33:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2003 10:35:50 PM EDT by Cutter75]
OK, Shamus here are some simple "designs"
I conjured up from the FDCC's website, and my own demented brain...

Thanks ShakyJake for converting them to .jpg format...

I figured (6) would be a good start...

My brother-in-law mentioned 50 gallon drums also
as a prop- empty of course, unless they come from Anheiser Busch, then full is OK...

Link Posted: 5/12/2003 7:17:38 AM EDT
Cutter, those look great!

Another one I thought of that could be interesting, is a half cutout of a car (hood to mid portion) so we could practice as if using the car for cover, or simulate some sort of car jacking scenario, or a 'home invasion' scenario where you pull up to your house, and see the bad guys coming out.


The IDPA website has some sample 'courses of fire' listed, check them out.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:48:10 PM EDT
If any more hosting is needed for this, I've got a little room with my DSL account that I can use. Just email them to me and I'll put them up ASAP.

I've taught myself a little HTML in the past also. Maybe an info page?
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 8:45:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 8:47:40 PM EDT by Cutter75]

Which looks better -

Missouri Defensive Carbine Club -

or club with a "K"

Missouri Defensive Carbine Klub


both pronounced the same -

It's great to live in Missouri we have MO of everything...

Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:33:24 AM EDT
No one found this funny???

Guys, where's your sense of humor???

I pictured our first dinner @ HOOTERS, and when the receptionist askes who we represent we say

Ok, how about "MOTUSH"
Missouri Tactical Unit Specialization Hobbiest

Link Posted: 5/20/2003 3:04:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2003 3:08:55 PM EDT by ShakyJake]

Originally Posted By Cutter75:
No one found this funny???

Guys, where's your sense of humor???

I pictured our first dinner @ HOOTERS, and when the receptionist askes who we represent we say

Ok, how about "MOTUSH"
Missouri Tactical Unit Specialization Hobbiest






Link Posted: 5/20/2003 11:57:01 PM EDT
I'm in for this summer's events only (grad school). I think the range will be the biggest limitation.

What is the range the Chapman Academy uses in Columbia? It sounds like Columbia is the more desirable place for any of this stuff, since it's inbetween Kansas City and St. Louis. I'll alert the Belleville crew I know. There's folks on the East side who would love this sort of stuff.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:41:01 AM EDT
MORK? Missouri Rifle Klub?



Link Posted: 5/23/2003 11:10:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kpel308:
MORK? Missouri Rifle Klub?




Great response Kpel...
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 1:37:19 PM EDT
Shamusmcoi slapped together a target stand, which we tested at the shoot last weekend. That worked perfectly. He's got most of the materials for the stands and barricades, so it would be nice to get together one day and have a building party.

I'll order the targets.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:59:46 PM EDT
I will be in Dallas the weekend of the 14th, but would be available any other weekend this month...

Say the 21st or 28th...

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