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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/10/2005 6:42:30 AM EDT
A buddy of mine is trying to get some transfers done and all the FFL's he's found are charging insane amounts. like 10.00 + the sales tax on the fire arm, even though they didn't sell it.

Can someone please reccomend a FFL that isn't going to charge an arm and a leg?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:28:48 AM EDT
$10 transfers aren't bad, that's what I pay, but the FFL charging sales tax? He can't legally do that on a firearm he didn't sell.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:36:56 AM EDT
Dealers don't charge tax, the state does. All we do is collect it. I don't collect tax on the firearms being transfered, but I do on the transfer fee. Some dealers interpret the tax laws differently. If you buy from an individual you can legally buy it so tax would apply to the purchase. If you buy from a wholesaler or manufacturer you cannot buy without a FFL. So technically the FFL is making the sale. Tax would be collected. It is a grey area in my mind and perhaps it should be clarified by the Comptroller. Of course their attitude is that you, the individual, should pay taxes even on internet purchases, there just isn't any feasible way to enforce it at the moment.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:59:09 AM EDT
Maybe I wasn't clear with the way I said it, but i'm talking about 10.00 plus .0825(cost of firearm).

The FFL is acting as if he were the one who sold the firearm, even though the firearm was purchased from out of state.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:23:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:44:01 AM EDT
he's not charging 10.00, he's charging 10.00 plus what the sales tax WOULD be if he had purchased it from him.

ex. For a 500.00 firearm he would charge 10.00 PLUS .0825 of the actual cost of the firearm
=10.00 plus .0825(500.00) = 51.25
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:46:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BadSVT:
Maybe I wasn't clear with the way I said it, but i'm talking about 10.00 plus .0825(cost of firearm).

The FFL is acting as if he were the one who sold the firearm, even though the firearm was purchased from out of state.



Who are you purchasing the firearms from, an individual or a dealer/retailer/wholesaler?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:54:32 AM EDT
my friend is purchasing it from a dealer that is out of state.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:03:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BadSVT:
my friend is purchasing it from a dealer that is out of state.



This is the grey area. Tax isn't being collected on either end. The State wants their cut. If, at some point, the Comptroller enforces the collection of taxes on internet sales you won't be responsible, your transfer dealer will be. He is making sure he doesn't get stuck with a very large tax liability in the future. As long as he turns in the tax collected he isn't doing anything wrong. If you don't agree with his intupretation of the law go to some one else. You could call the Comptroller and get their take on it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:11:41 PM EDT
I think it's outright bullshit. I've done probably 10 transfers with 4 different FFLs and have yet to run into this crap.

And from what I gather from my friend, it sounds like the dealer is going to pocket the 41.25
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:29:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BadSVT:
I think it's outright bullshit. I've done probably 10 transfers with 4 different FFLs and have yet to run into this crap.

And from what I gather from my friend, it sounds like the dealer is going to pocket the 41.25



Bullshit or not, are you going to step up to the plate years from now when the Comptroller makes your dealer pay the tax that the Comptroller say should have been collected? Or are you going to leave your dealer blowing in the wind. You can't fault him for CYA. If you think he is pocketing the "tax" don't use him, or better yet, set up a sting operation with the Comptroller.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:32:53 PM EDT
Luckily I have good dealers around here that don't jerk me around. Can anyone reccomend a FFL in the waco area that doesn't charge an arm and a leg?

I'm about to tell my friend to drive to hearne or come here to CS.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 2:05:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 2:05:57 PM EDT by Tonster]

Originally Posted By BadSVT:
And from what I gather from my friend, it sounds like the dealer is going to pocket the 41.25




Yep it BS. There is no tax due. I would call the state comptroller and inform them they need to look into this guy’s tax records. I bet he has NOT been passing the $$$ along.

I once worked for a wireless phone company that gave a free phone away (back in early 1990), but charged sales tax on actual value of the phone.
Come to find out the owner was in fact putting the "sales tax" in his pocket (to finance his pretty Vette.)
One call to the comptroller will fix this guys little red wagon.
That’s what happened to the guy I used to work for
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 2:55:42 PM EDT
Of course once you contact the State Comptroller and tell them you are purchasing over the internet and not voluntarily paying State Sales Tax they may take an interest in you.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:07:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
Of course once you contact the State Comptroller and tell them you are purchasing over the internet and not voluntarily paying State Sales Tax they may take an interest in you.


why should I or anyone else pay a state sales tax when the purchase was made out of state. Just like the millions of mail order purchaes made every year.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:11:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
Of course once you contact the State Comptroller and tell them you are purchasing over the internet and not voluntarily paying State Sales Tax they may take an interest in you.



You're right on this one and mostly right on everything else.

If the seller is not in Texas and has a Texas Sales and Use tax permit, then you owe the Texas Sales tax which will be collected by the seller. If the seller is not in Texas and does not have a Texas Sales and Use tax permit they will not collect Texas Sales tax, the purchaser must pay the Use tax.

www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/sales/faq_use.html#use3

I've only seen it enforced when someone messed up and got the attention of the Comptroller and with the purchase of automobiles, outside of Texas, by military members that are Texas residents stationed outside Texas and trying to register the vehicles in Texas.



mm



Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:16:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BadSVT:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
Of course once you contact the State Comptroller and tell them you are purchasing over the internet and not voluntarily paying State Sales Tax they may take an interest in you.


why should I or anyone else pay a state sales tax when the purchase was made out of state. Just like the millions of mail order purchaes made every year.



I'm not a tax lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. My understanding of the law is that it is the resposibility of the individual to voluntarily pay sales tax on internet purchases. It doesn't seem to be enforced because at this time it is next to impossible to enforce. Just because millions of people don't pay doesn't excuse your reposiblity to pay. If a dealer collects and submits this tax to the State Comptroller I do not fault him. Since he maintains records of this transfer for 20 years it can come back to haunt him if the State Comptroller decides to force the issue. If you don't like what this Dealer is doing just walk away. There is no need to jump up and down, scream and holler and get all red in the face, he is CYA, just find another Dealer.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:18:59 PM EDT

Call the Comptroller from a payphone (if they still exist) and ask their opinion. This FFL can charge whatever he wants but he should just state his charges & not make up some bullshit about sales tax. He is NOT paying this tax to the state. It will not be retroactive when paying sales tax on out of state purchases becomes the norm.

He hates that he's losing sales to the internet and instead of being reasonable like Sporting Arms he wants to rip off anyone silly or misinformed enough to do a transfer through him. In doing so he ensures no future gun or accessory sales to the transferee. Poor business plan but it's his right to go broke any way he chooses.

Tell your bud not to use this guy and to tell the FFL holder he checked with the Comptroller who said collecting sales tax on items he isn't selling is illegal (Just to fuck with him).
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:30:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

There is no need to jump up and down, scream and holler and get all red in the face, he is CYA, just find another Dealer.



That's what my orginal question was....
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:31:12 PM EDT
Tell your bud not to use this guy and to tell the FFL holder he checked with the Comptroller who said collecting sales tax on items he isn't selling is illegal (Just to fuck with him).

Perhaps the dealer will call the Comptroller and let them know what you are buying (Just to screw with you).
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:37:44 PM EDT
Perhaps, but I doubt it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:47:00 PM EDT
The grey area is that the Dealer is collecting State Sales Tax. There is no question that the tax is required under the law. The question is who pays it. Every one seems to be out to lynch the Dealer, who might be overzealous in collecting the tax and forgetting that everyone else is blatantly disrequarding the law. Of course I could request an official opinion from the State Comptroller so we can all do the right thing in the future.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:53:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
The grey area is that the Dealer is collecting State Sales Tax. There is no question that the tax is required under the law. The question is who pays it. Every one seems to be out to lynch the Dealer, who might be overzealous in collecting the tax and forgetting that everyone else is blatantly disrequarding the law. Of course I could request an official opinion from the State Comptroller so we can all do the right thing in the future.



he's charging what the tax WOULD be, not actually collecting it as tax. It's sort of his way of commission.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:59:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BadSVT:

he's charging what the tax WOULD be, not actually collecting it as tax. It's sort of his way of commission.



Do you know this for a fact? Your first post said he was actually collecting the tax. If he is collecting an amount equal to tax but is not tax I don't see the purpose of this thread. It's his business, If you don't want to do business with him, don't.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:02:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By BadSVT:

he's charging what the tax WOULD be, not actually collecting it as tax. It's sort of his way of commission.



Do you know this for a fact? Your first post said he was actually collecting the tax. If he is collecting an amount equal to tax but is not tax I don't see the purpose of this thread. It's his business, If you don't want to do business with him, don't.



check my 2nd response, not including my inital post. I wasn't clear in my initial post.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:14:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By oulufinn:
Tell your bud not to use this guy and to tell the FFL holder he checked with the Comptroller who said collecting sales tax on items he isn't selling is illegal (Just to fuck with him).



It's not illegal if he collects the sales taxes, properly files and pays them to the state. If anything, he might be collecting tax on an item he is not supposed to. The tax will be refunded then.

There is nothing that specifically states that he must or must not collect sales tax for an item that passes through his hands.


Originally Posted by terrydavis:
If a dealer collects and submits this tax to the State Comptroller I do not fault him. Since he maintains records of this transfer for 20 years it can come back to haunt him if the State Comptroller decides to force the issue. If you don't like what this Dealer is doing just walk away. There is no need to jump up and down, scream and holler and get all red in the face, he is CYA, just find another Dealer.



I don't think the dealer's backside would be hanging in the wind. The purchaser is supposed to pay the Use tax when items are purchased from another state and no taxes have been paid. This is stated by the Comptroller's Office.

It just might be easier for the dealer to hand out a Tx Comptroller Form 01-156 for every transfer he handles. This is also one of the many reasons so many dealers will not handle transfers.

mm
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:25:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 4:27:33 PM EDT by Tonster]
FYI...
All those purchases from the Stuckey's when you were traveling out of state...ARE TAXABLE


"If you purchased goods or taxable services from an out-of-state vendor who did not collect Texas tax, you owe Texas use tax. We designed the Occasional Use Tax Return (form number 01-156) to give you a simple way to pay any use tax on Internet or mail order purchases and on goods purchased while traveling out of state
. You can fill out the form online, print and mail it with your payment directly to the Comptroller."

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:04:21 PM EDT
My gun club owner is an FFL that does free transfers for club members. About a year ago he charged me tax on a lower he was transfering for me, and when I asked about it he said the state was getting on FFLs' asses about a "user tax" or something on out of state items, and he showed me a memo he got from the state to back it up.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:58:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
My gun club owner is an FFL that does free transfers for club members. About a year ago he charged me tax on a lower he was transfering for me, and when I asked about it he said the state was getting on FFLs' asses about a "user tax" or something on out of state items, and he showed me a memo he got from the state to back it up.



According to the Texas Comptrollers office he can only charge tax on the transfer. Any other tax is up to you to pay.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:17:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tonster:

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
My gun club owner is an FFL that does free transfers for club members. About a year ago he charged me tax on a lower he was transfering for me, and when I asked about it he said the state was getting on FFLs' asses about a "user tax" or something on out of state items, and he showed me a memo he got from the state to back it up.



According to the Texas Comptrollers office he can only charge tax on the transfer. Any other tax is up to you to pay.



I don't think it so clear, do you have references? A poc in the Comptroller's Office? Can you site the appropriate law? Any case law? In the interst of doing the right thing I will be more than happy to request a ruling from the Comptroller so they are aware of the situation and can enforce the appropriate law.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:11:19 AM EDT
I think I would tell him to go fuck himself.

Further, youthe club member who is collecting sales tax: I would not tell him to go fuck himself-although that would be implicit. Further, if he insisted, I would simply tell him that I bought the lower for $1.00. He doesn't know how much I paid the for lower.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:20:21 AM EDT
Instead of making it a case us against them, why don't we ask an attorney, does anyone know of one? Perhaps he could find ou for us, so no one is breakeing the law. Is there an attorney in the house?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:41:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:55:41 PM EDT by Tonster]

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
Instead of making it a case us against them, why don't we ask an attorney, does anyone know of one? Perhaps he could find ou for us, so no one is breakeing the law. Is there an attorney in the house?



Yeah SC you go ask an attorney
You can read all about the tax laws on the comptollers site. The only person responsible for paying the taxes on an item bought out of state is the purchaser. My earlier post was correct and was copied from the State Comptrollers office.

"If you purchased goods or taxable services from an out-of-state vendor who did not collect Texas tax, you owe Texas use tax. We designed the Occasional Use Tax Return (form number 01-156) to give you a simple way to pay any use tax on Internet or mail order purchases and on goods purchased while traveling out of state. You can fill out the form online, print and mail it with your payment directly to the Comptroller."

NOTHING about giving $$$ to some scammer dealer.
For the simple people in the group.
Did the dealer purchase anything? NO
Read the first 4 words of the paragraph....Nuff said on that issue.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:18:33 PM EDT
The guy in Austin that I use collects tax on the transfer fee...the service he is providing. He doesn't even know how much I paid for the particular weapon unless I choose to tell him (and I never have).

I would just walk if one wanted to collect tax on something he didn't sell or for a service he didn't provide. It's pretty simple to me. If the state wants the tax they can come and look me up.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:27:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tonster:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
Instead of making it a case us against them, why don't we ask an attorney, does anyone know of one? Perhaps he could find ou for us, so no one is breakeing the law. Is there an attorney in the house?



Yeah SC you go ask an attorney
You can read all about the tax laws on the comptollers site. The only person responsible for paying the taxes on an item bought out of state is the purchaser. My earlier post was correct and was copied from the State Comptrollers office.

"If you purchased goods or taxable services from an out-of-state vendor who did not collect Texas tax, you owe Texas use tax. We designed the Occasional Use Tax Return (form number 01-156) to give you a simple way to pay any use tax on Internet or mail order purchases and on goods purchased while traveling out of state. You can fill out the form online, print and mail it with your payment directly to the Comptroller."

NOTHING about giving $$$ to some scammer dealer.
For the simple people in the group.
Did the dealer purchase anything? NO
Read the first 4 words of the paragraph....Nuff said on that issue.



I don't think enough is said about this subject, I personally don't collect tax. I can see it as an issue because it came through my shop and I have to keep records on this transfer for 20 years. What if for whatever reason the Comptroller comes after me? It is not too far fetched to believe they will go after the person with the records.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:15:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:
Instead of making it a case us against them, why don't we ask an attorney, does anyone know of one? Perhaps he could find ou for us, so no one is breakeing the law. Is there an attorney in the house?



Nope, not a one or two
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:05:04 PM EDT
Basically, the FFL has NO RIGHT OR OBLIGATION to collect sales tax on something that he does not sell.

The FFL is MERELY transferring the article and acting as an intermediary. Since he does not have any idea what it sold for, he could not know how much tax to collect.

My advice, let the FFL know that you have reported him to the tax collectors and find someone else who isn't shady to do your transfer.

FACT: this turd doesn't have the balls to simply tell you that it takes $50.00 to make it worth his while to transfer the gun for you.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:15:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Basically, the FFL has NO RIGHT OR OBLIGATION to collect sales tax on something that he does not sell.

The FFL is MERELY transferring the article and acting as an intermediary. Since he does not have any idea what it sold for, he could not know how much tax to collect.

My advice, let the FFL know that you have reported him to the tax collectors and find someone else who isn't shady to do your transfer.

FACT: this turd doesn't have the balls to simply tell you that it takes $50.00 to make it worth his while to transfer the gun for you.



So, in the resulting investigation, this turd's records are looked at by the Comptroller. Everyone he has transfered a firearms for will be contacted and use tax collected. That is kind of like cutting your nose off to spite your face. You get the dealer but you get everyone else at the same time. Why not just walk away?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:26:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:22:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
The FFL is MERELY transferring the article and acting as an intermediary. Since he does not have any idea what it sold for, he could not know how much tax to collect.



Exactly. On more than one occasion while vacationing out of state, I saw something in a gun shop/show I could not live without. I bought it on the spot. Got a receipt and all. I then made arrangements to have it shipped FFL-FFL. The FFL was merely doing the XFER; he could not sell it to me since I already owned it.
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