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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/24/2004 9:52:57 PM EST
Nearly every week without fail a drunk teen ager rolls his 4x4 through the fence, this time it totaled the truck but the atv was thrown free and survived but taken away with the totaled 4x4 on the tilt bed wrecker.

But this just goes to show how ineffective rules and law enforcement are at protecting life and property, the county is just too big with too many rural roads for a agent to be everywhere at all times, there was a couple cases of beer in the passenger compartment, the rig was one of many in a convoy headed up to cedar ponds for a friday night party, this one rig failed to negotiate a turn and rolled few times before landing on its wheels again but only after destroying another fence and many well cared for plants garden and lawn and fence, mail box etc.

The only way to end this nonsense is strict liability, no more limited lability insurance, the individual needs to take full responsibility for its actions and bear the full cost, if it doesnt have assets enough to pay for the damage it needs to be a slave until it pays it off.

The attitude of the JBTs responding was deplorable, where the hell do they get these guys, capital hill?

Just plain tired of the stupidity.



Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:08:44 PM EST
Did they show more concern for the drivers than your property damage?
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:22:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
Just plain tired of the stupidity.



Then move to Northern Alaska.


I've seen bears and salmon with more common sense than the average person in these parts.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:53:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blackgun_Fun:
Did they show more concern for the drivers than your property damage?



They showed nothing but contempt for both people and property, two monroe police and sheriff deputies, I am just tired of the bad attitude of these people that are supposed to be there to help, protect and serve, officer friendly like the old days but instead they went on and on about what could of happened like they should cut everyones toung out becuase they may say something in the future because they have toung.

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:08:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES: the individual needs to take full responsibility for its actions and bear the full cost, if it doesnt have assets enough to pay for the damage it needs to be a slave until it pays it off.



Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:55:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES: the individual needs to take full responsibility for its actions and bear the full cost, if it doesnt have assets enough to pay for the damage it needs to be a slave until it pays it off.






Strict liability is the tried and true experience of common law, limited liability encourages irresponsibility and you get more crime with limited liability, not to mention that compulsery imsurance is the very definition of slavery, where-as compelled performance is best use for justice and IS just.

Don't tell me your a insurance salemen right?

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 8:19:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES: the individual needs to take full responsibility for its actions and bear the full cost, if it doesnt have assets enough to pay for the damage it needs to be a slave until it pays it off.






Strict liability is the tried and true experience of common law, limited liability encourages irresponsibility and you get more crime with limited liability, not to mention that compulsery imsurance is the very definition of slavery, where-as compelled performance is best use for justice and IS just.

Don't tell me your a insurance salemen right?




Nope, but no way in hell would I be a slave in bondage to someone because I damaged their property. Skip the slave to your wage spin, that's not slavery, I can quit my job and give up my wage, you can't just tell your slavemaster that you quit and walk off.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 9:53:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
Nope, but no way in hell would I be a slave in bondage to someone because I damaged their property. .

And that is exactly why strict liability works, wealthy people could care less how much damage they including killing innocent people by driving drunk, because they have enough money they can always find another insurance company that will take their money and insure them.

Part of the story you are missing is that the monroe police department did the same thing as the kids last night did, lost control and rolled the cruiser through the fence and ended up upside down on the front entrance to the house, they said they would pay for the damage but then weasled out of it leaving the home owner to pay for the repairs.

A free society requires a informed and moral people but when people are ignorant and immoral they should be held accountable for their actions and the damage they do, I know of people who do not use insurance and the are the safest of travelers.



Link Posted: 9/25/2004 10:26:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
Nope, but no way in hell would I be a slave in bondage to someone because I damaged their property. .

And that is exactly why strict liability works, wealthy people could care less how much damage they including killing innocent people by driving drunk, because they have enough money they can always find another insurance company that will take their money and insure them.

Part of the story you are missing is that the monroe police department did the same thing as the kids last night did, lost control and rolled the cruiser through the fence and ended up upside down on the front entrance to the house, they said they would pay for the damage but then weasled out of it leaving the home owner to pay for the repairs.

A free society requires a informed and moral people but when people are ignorant and immoral they should be held accountable for their actions and the damage they do, I know of people who do not use insurance and the are the safest of travelers.






Funny how you rant against rich people being able to do as much damage as they want including killing innocent people by driving drunk, because they have enough money they can always find another insurance company yet you then boast about knowing of people who do not use insurance. Are they financially equipped to pay for any damage that they might do? Strange things happen.

Strict liablity would allow the wealthy people to just pay off the poor people they've damaged. Do you really think that Bill Gates couldn't write a check for any damage he realistically would do? You're going to allow the wealthy as many free passes as their check book will allow?

Part of the story that I'm missing/ How about part of the story that you left out? How did the PD weasel out? What minuta of law was cited to keep them from paying? Or are the sheep just bleating?


A free society requires a informed and moral people


Slavery, which is against ones will is not moral.

I'd like to know how your strict liablity theory is going to stop near weekly occurance of a drunk teenager crashing through that fence? "Ooops sorry mr fence owner I wrecked your fence here you go $$$$"

I also fail to see why you called on R-32 to address this? I'm pretty sure that it wasn't his teenager crashing through the fence.

How about building a stronger fence to keep the cars out of the garden?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 11:18:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 11:21:09 AM EST by STRATIOTES]

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
Funny how you rant against rich people being able to do as much damage as they want including killing innocent people by driving drunk, because they have enough money they can always find another insurance company yet you then boast about knowing of people who do not use insurance. Are they financially equipped to pay for any damage that they might do? Strange things happen.
Yes they are accountable and thats why they are so careful, yes accidents happen and thats why they call them accidents, all this is apart of the seventh amendment and a common law court, this is nothing new, it is just a call to return to the organic law of the constitution

Strict liablity would allow the wealthy people to just pay off the poor people they've damaged. Do you really think that Bill Gates couldn't write a check for any damage he realistically would do? You're going to allow the wealthy as many free passes as their check book will allow? No thats why we have justice systems but the original common law justice system has been abandoned for article two courts under the UCC where the poor end up in prisons that cost between $45,000 to $67,000 dollars a year to keep them and the wealthy are not held accountable.

Part of the story that I'm missing/ How about part of the story that you left out? How did the PD weasel out? What minuta of law was cited to keep them from paying? Or are the sheep just bleating? it was the city of Monroe that did not honor their promise to make it right and the officer that did the damage should have at least tried to make some effort at making it right, the home owner didnt want any punitive damages but his fence and house fixed, it destroyed some very old plants that could not be replaced but that was accepted as an accident and no one expected re-imbersement for the loss, the home owner is a good stand up guy too bad that couldnt be said of the officials.


A free society requires a informed and moral people


Slavery, which is against ones will is not moral. in punishment for a crime it is indeed moral, you have a choice in the matter so it is voluntary

I'd like to know how your strict liablity theory is going to stop near weekly occurance of a drunk teenager crashing through that fence? "Ooops sorry mr fence owner I wrecked your fence here you go $$$$" once again you are over simplifying

I also fail to see why you called on R-32 to address this? I'm pretty sure that it wasn't his teenager crashing through the fence. Its just an inside joke as he has responded to numerous calls on the Ben Howard road scraping up whats left of the bodies with tools from the rescue truck, besides we have an ongoing dialogue about how to pay for the rescue truck and the emergency reponders

How about building a stronger fence to keep the cars out of the garden?
Jersy barriers are very expensive and ugly this place i speak of won snocounty garden of the year award, it looks very nice and the owners work very hard to keep it that way, besides the idea is to protect life and property and prevent injury in the first place, the idea is to encourage people to look after themselves and not create a nanny state to attempt to force them to behave which will never work as it is against the laws of human nature

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 11:41:59 AM EST
1) Are these uninsured safe drivers financially equipped to pay even the low amount $500,000 in damages out of thier pocket? It doesn't take much to have the person who was hit with a car accumulate that in actual damages.

2) Now you're going off about the rich can buy their way out of jail but the poor have to go to jail, there you go you've gotten what you wanted anyway. The people who can pay do pay (the rich) and the others go into slavery (poor into jail)

3) The sheep did bleat, the wold growled and the sheep shut up.

4) Crime? Having an accident that does damage is now a crime that is worthy of being enslaved for if you cant just hand over some cash? Where is the choice that they have? If they don't have the money to pay the damage then under your way they become slaves. That is not a choice!

5) Nothing was oversimplified, in the first post you presented a problem of people crashing , and you gave as the solution strict liablity under which you claimed that a person either directly pays for the damage they did or they get enslaved until they earn enough to work it off.

6) Plant some damn flowers on the concrete jersey barriers. Concrete and rebar is not too expensive. How about the look after themselves and their property and take steps to handle the protection themselves instead of relying on a nanny state to force others to behave?

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:48:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
The only way to end this nonsense is strict liability, no more limited lability insurance, the individual needs to take full responsibility for its actions and bear the full cost, if it doesnt have assets enough to pay for the damage it needs to be a slave until it pays it off.



This is completely laughable, although not at all surprising.

Since when did "freedom fighters" endorse slavery as a viable option?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 9:09:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Since when did "freedom fighters" endorse slavery as a viable option?



Read the constitution the exception is called involuntary servitude and has always been used punitively as punishment for crime and to repay the injured party, prisons do not serve a constructive purpose, it costs money to keep someone and feed them and not have them produce.




Eph.4

1. [28] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.



In the old testament a theif would have to pay twice to four times the amount of the theft, this discourages theft as it is easier to work for what is needed than steal it unlike organized crime called government.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 10:16:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 10:36:32 PM EST by R-32]
You live in a nice area for that stuff dont ya?


All I can say about the accident at this time is....

There was a large dollar amount in damage...

And the veh's were unoccupied on arrival of Aid and Fire..


Now My personal " Feelings" on this....

If you get in a wreck, and damage someone elses property, are not man enough to stick around, Your insurance should not have to cover you...


That is all...
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 6:50:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 6:55:33 AM EST by Gunjunkie]
Just why are we condeming youngsters for doing the same things we did at there age.. Why ????

Accidents Happen.. ,, going to continue to happen..

Seems to me if your property gets damages lots on that corner, I would just quit reparing and replacing it.. Guide Rails may be alternative....

I don't condone Drinking a Driving, but sure did my share of partying when younger,, and yes we had to drive to get there and yes I had a few or more on the way... I was just lucky I guess..

Sure can't condem the kids....

But your saying if you are driving past my place ,, swerver to miss a deer,, blow a tire and crash through my fence,, I can make you slave till damage claim is settled??? Works both ways.. just not of one..
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:04:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By R-32:
Now My personal " Feelings" on this....

If you get in a wreck, and damage someone elses property, are not man enough to stick around, Your insurance should not have to cover you...
That is all...



The question remains on how to pay for the rescue truck and crew, as it is now my property is assessed way above market value on which I must pay your wages to serve the people that do the crime and run away.

I still think you guys need a meter on your truck just like a taxi and the one using your services pays for them.

Link Posted: 9/26/2004 9:44:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
I still think you guys need a meter on your truck just like a taxi and the one using your services pays for them.




I really like that idea, The only thing I would add is this...

Accidental incidents like House Fires, Acts of God/Prevenitive safety type calls should not be charged. Our ambulance service does not charge you to come out and do a eval, or try to do very simple treatments at the home, But the min you get into the back of the Ambulance you will get a Transport bill ( About 1/3 of what it cost if you call a private ambulance company). and You will get a bill for all of the equipment/Drugs used on you if needed....A high number of our citizens have insurance that will cover most of the cost, the citizens that are not from the area, get charged a little higher...If you are from the area, and do not have insurance They send you a bill, and if you dont pay...Well lets just say as of this time, I know of no citizen that has been " Gone After"...
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:23:13 AM EST
Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


When a person commits a crime against the community at large, they do indeed have the option of repaying "the community". Ever see the gentleman and ladies collecting trash along the freeway? They're not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.

However, show me the state law or any other that lists involuntary bondage to an individual (as you're suggesting) to be an option insofar as a criminal or civil sentance goes.

"Deuteronomy 24
7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you."


Kinda puts a damper on your biblical basis for involuntary bondage.

Although, if you like, we can simply trade Scripture back and forth until the end of time to support each of our viewpoints.

Is it wrong that the city is allegedly refusing to compensate your neighbor for his loss?

Yes: no one here disagrees.

Should we do away with property taxes and throw a meter on the ambulance, fire and police vehicles? Pay for the service as it's used?

Hell yes.

However, should people be forced into involuntary bondage to an individual to pay off a debt?

Hell no. The day the State allows individuals to be bonded to individuals against their will is the day I get to play "Amateur Moses".

Be careful what you wish for: there are many who would liberate such individuals by force simply on general principle.

A more intelligent option would be to actually hold the State accountable. Once the State actually begins to answer the will of the people, they'll begin to hold individuals accountable for their faults, as well.

You can't have one before the other.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:58:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By R-32:
Now My personal " Feelings" on this....

If you get in a wreck, and damage someone elses property, are not man enough to stick around, Your insurance should not have to cover you...
That is all...



The question remains on how to pay for the rescue truck and crew, as it is now my property is assessed way above market value on which I must pay your wages to serve the people that do the crime and run away.

I still think you guys need a meter on your truck just like a taxi and the one using your services pays for them.




Lets go with your metered fire rig for a moment.

Who's paying when it's not actually on a run?

1-2-3 weeks go by and there are no runs to bill for. Where is the money at to pay for the firemen? Other than in a small community, you aren't going to be able to supply enough qualified responders and equipment on a pay per call out basis.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:25:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
They showed nothing but contempt for both people and property, two monroe police and sheriff deputies, I am just tired of the bad attitude of these people that are supposed to be there to help, protect and serve, officer friendly like the old days but instead they went on and on about what could of happened like they should cut everyones toung out becuase they may say something in the future because they have toung.





I believe they are not paid to help, protect or serve. That is just a slogan, and it means nothing. Its probably some thing the liberals came up with to feel safer. I do believe they get paid to investigate and to arrest any person in question. Particularly if they or the court can make a buck off it. And in some cases someone really did brake the law and should be arrested.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 12:26:08 PM EST
Very interesting thread.

I believe we all agree that there must be a punishment, or accountability, for human behavior. Actuallt, a big deal of all the trouble the whole world is going by right now is due to the lack of accountability for people's actions. It's easier to blame the "objects" such as guns, cars, cellphones, etc. than to realize that human race has been a failure in social behaviour so far, with very few exceptions that probably exist.

My initial thought was rebuild the fence in such a way that even a tank would have a hard time going through. However, on a second thought, I imagined I would probably be sued for having such a fence that would "cause driver injury" even if proved the driver was driving irresponsibly when hit it.
As you guys can see... there's no easy answer for this problem.

Personally, I would not want a "slave" I would have to take care of. I'd rather having his/her property confiscated and sold until my loss was paid off. If there was no personal property available check the parents and relatives. After feeling the "pain" for losing something due to the irresponsible relative they would surely police that troublemaker closely and, hopefully, make society better.

The truth is that some people deserve freedom since they are accountable for their actions. Others are hopeless and, unfortunately, are protected by the state. One would wonder why...

Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:26:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rossi:
Personally, I would not want a "slave" I would have to take care of. I'd rather having his/her property confiscated and sold until my loss was paid off. If there was no personal property available check the parents and relatives. After feeling the "pain" for losing something due to the irresponsible relative they would surely police that troublemaker closely and, hopefully, make society better.

The truth is that some people deserve freedom since they are accountable for their actions. Others are hopeless and, unfortunately, are protected by the state. One would wonder why...




You are right there is no physical law solution to a spiritual problem, a ignorant or immoral people will never be free but polls still have the U.S. at over 84% christian, so if we could get people to seek the truth and worship God in the spirit and truth all the problems would go away.

The suggestion however is called corruption of blood and outlawed for a really good reason, we still see this ignored with the dead beat dad laws and relatives punished for things beyond their control.

Alas in the end, it is time for a bloody revolution.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 4:46:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
You are right there is no physical law solution to a spiritual problem, a ignorant or immoral people will never be free but polls still have the U.S. at over 84% christian, so if we could get people to seek the truth and worship God in the spirit and truth all the problems would go away.

The suggestion however is called corruption of blood and outlawed for a really good reason, we still see this ignored with the dead beat dad laws and relatives punished for things beyond their control.

Alas in the end, it is time for a bloody revolution.



I agree that Christian philosophy would be of great help on mankind's spiritual, therefore, social evolution. My fear is this can also be distorted and we see in History how many times people committed atrocities "in the name of God". Just see what is being done now "in the name of Allah".

I also do not think "revolution" would help since mankind is still mankind. It would be replacing corruption by new corruption.

Link Posted: 9/27/2004 2:16:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By R-32:


( About 1/3 of what it cost if you call a private ambulance company).




You only get paid per call?
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 2:19:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rossi:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
You are right there is no physical law solution to a spiritual problem, a ignorant or immoral people will never be free but polls still have the U.S. at over 84% christian, so if we could get people to seek the truth and worship God in the spirit and truth all the problems would go away.

The suggestion however is called corruption of blood and outlawed for a really good reason, we still see this ignored with the dead beat dad laws and relatives punished for things beyond their control.

Alas in the end, it is time for a bloody revolution.



I agree that Christian philosophy would be of great help on mankind's spiritual, therefore, social evolution. My fear is this can also be distorted and we see in History how many times people committed atrocities "in the name of God". Just see what is being done now "in the name of Allah".

I also do not think "revolution" would help since mankind is still mankind. It would be replacing corruption by new corruption.


I am not Christian, but there are VERY few people in this world that would call me immoral, and most of them are blowhards.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 6:49:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Rossi:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
You are right there is no physical law solution to a spiritual problem, a ignorant or immoral people will never be free but polls still have the U.S. at over 84% christian, so if we could get people to seek the truth and worship God in the spirit and truth all the problems would go away.

The suggestion however is called corruption of blood and outlawed for a really good reason, we still see this ignored with the dead beat dad laws and relatives punished for things beyond their control.

Alas in the end, it is time for a bloody revolution.



I agree that Christian philosophy would be of great help on mankind's spiritual, therefore, social evolution. My fear is this can also be distorted and we see in History how many times people committed atrocities "in the name of God". Just see what is being done now "in the name of Allah".

I also do not think "revolution" would help since mankind is still mankind. It would be replacing corruption by new corruption.


I am not Christian, but there are VERY few people in this world that would call me immoral, and most of them are blowhards.



I don't care about your religious beliefs or morals, but I find it ironic that someone who brags about speeding and getting sideways is responding to this thread.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 8:53:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By rabrand:

Originally Posted By R-32:


( About 1/3 of what it cost if you call a private ambulance company).




You only get paid per call?



Are you talking about me, or the Dept.?

I am in a combination dept. we have Part time and Full time paid staff., ( old school Vol./Paid), but now We dont have Vol's in my dept. because we all get paid.

The Dept. bills the patient for transport fee's from the location of the incident to the local hospital, In our area all but maybe 2 or 3 depts charge for transports...
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