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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 1/10/2006 7:16:21 PM EDT
I think I've got black rifle disease.

I want to eventually build an AR pistol and a SBR.

Can any regular AR lower be registered as a SBR? Would you just go through the process, wait for approval, then put your short barrel on?

Can a stock be added to an AR pistol legally and then removed to use it as both a pistol or a rifle?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:47:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 7:51:33 PM EDT by JustinOK34]
From what I understand, yes, you can SBR any AR lower. Just go through the process, and it'll be okay. There's some FAQs under the M-16/Full Auto Forum about this: www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=14

If you want to build it into a pistol, it will need to have been registered as a pistol, not a rifle.

Also, if it is a pistol, I do not believe you will be legal to install a buttstock onto it, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit-And yes, you have BRD. I'm Justin, and I too have BRD.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:41:19 PM EDT

Edit-And yes, you have BRD. I'm Justin, and I too have BRD.

That's a pretty common problem around here!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:58:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:
I think I've got black rifle disease. so get to building

I want to eventually build an AR pistol and a SBR. see above .........just have your paperwork hoop jumping in order
Can any regular AR lower be registered as a SBR? Would you just go through the process, wait for approval, then put your short barrel on? to the best of my reading comprenhension yes but i'v never truly studied it cause a sbr AR just don't intrest me so don't take it as gospel

Can a stock be added to an AR pistol legally and then removed to use it as both a pistol or a rifle? no no no no no no no once you go rifle you can't go back legally



Have a striped new lower transfered to you as a pistol if it was ever a rifle thats all it can be.........
If you convert your pistol lower into a rifle later on "legaly you cant go back" at least thats the last "word" i read on it...........
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:05:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker:
I think I've got black rifle disease.

I want to eventually build an AR pistol and a SBR.

Can any regular AR lower be registered as a SBR? Would you just go through the process, wait for approval, then put your short barrel on? You cannot possess the short barrel, <16" for a rifle, unless you have your ATF Form 1 completed and approved] read a lot more before you start and here another good source to use in addition to the Full Auto forum here. www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/nfa_faq.txt

Can a stock be added to an AR pistol legally and then removed to use it as both a pistol or a rifle?

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:47:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrBaker: I think I've got black rifle disease.


I have BRD as well, thats why I have an M4gery complete plus a complete lower waiting on fundage before anything else can happen....And the way to remedy BRD.......buy, build, repeat, buy, build, repeat.......
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:01:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 5:10:06 AM EDT by chvylvr350]

Originally Posted By DrBaker:
I think I've got black rifle disease.

I want to eventually build an AR pistol and a SBR.

Can any regular AR lower be registered as a SBR? Would you just go through the process, wait for approval, then put your short barrel on?

Can a stock be added to an AR pistol legally and then removed to use it as both a pistol or a rifle?
Actually yes you can, but only if you install the 16" or longer barreled upper before adding the shoulder stock and remove the shoulder stock before installing the pistol upper if less than 16". Sounds retarded but legal if you follow those two rules. The only reason one should worry is if you commited another crime and they got you on constructive intent to build an unregistered SBR.



I have seen several people on this site say they register all their lowers as pistols, because a pistol lower can be a pistol or a rifle. A rifle can never be a pistol, but can be made into a pistol configuration if registered as a SBR. If or when I get a lower it will be a pistol lower. The only reason not to do so is because of certain states' laws on pistols, but its a non-issue here.

ETA: I remembered someone bringing this up on OKShooters, and saw that it was you. I went into more detail on that thread than I did here. LINK
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:48:48 AM EDT
Here's what he said....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBaker
Is it illegal to add a stock to a pistol?
EX. putting a stock on a glock (legal or not, I would never dream of doing this). Just curious.

Yes as long as it follows the rules of being a "rifle" when it is configured as such. If its is made to be a "short-barreled rifle" it has to be registered as such to be legal. It can be configured as a "rifle" but it is still a "pistol". Once a "short-barreled rifle" always a "short-barreled rifle". Even though you could configure it to be pistol-like it is still registered as a "short-barreled rifle".


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBaker
Is it illegal to remove a stock and go with a pistol grip only with a rifle?
EX. removing the butt stock of an AK47,but leave the pistol grip there

As long as its barrel is 16" long and has an over-all length of 26". The 26" can vary from state to state but Oklahomas definition is the same as the federal law, which is 26".


Quote:
Originally Posted by LastManStanding
Ahh but the real question is does adding a stock to a pistol make it a rifle? It doesnt modify the way the gun shoots in any way so I'd assume that it wouldn't be considered a rifle.

It doesn't make it a "rifle" but it has to abide by the rules of being a "rifle" when a stock is on it. If you build a "short-barreled rifle" ,and register it, it is and always will be a "short-barreled rifle" from then on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Drown
This is an interesting debate and we've had these discussions before. I fall into this specifically since I have a Thompson Encore. It's both a pistol and a rifle depending upon the configuration.

Actually it is a "pistol" but must abide by the rules of "rifle" when in such a configuration. If it was a "rifle" it could never be a "pistol".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Drown
I believe someone had looked up the law on it, and it was somewhat entertaining. I has to do with the order it's assembled. If I have the rifle grip on my Encore, and put on a 12 inch pistol barrel, it's an illegal gun. However, If I put the barrel on first, then put the pistol grip on, it's a legal gun. Similarily, if I have the rifle stock and barrel assembled, and put the pistol grip on first before removing the barrel, it's once again an illegal gun.

Apparently it's your word on how it was assembled unless someone witnesses it. This came up at a match where someone had their Contender in rifle configuration, and disassembled and reassembled it in the wrong order and they wouldn't let them shoot. They had to reassemble it in the proper order to be a legal gun for the competition.

Strange stuff.

Yeah I wouldn't be worried about having such things unless you do something else illegal. I am sure that some people that have AR-15s also have AR pistols. If you got caught doing something wrong they might try to pin you with contructive intent to build an illegal "short-barreled rifle" or something. As long as you do nothing else wrong it unlikely anything would happen.

P.S. if you really want to be confused try to find the law that says that a pistol with a forward grip is an "any other weapon".
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:51:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 5:54:18 AM EDT by RatTerrier]
And here's something that should keep you reading for a few days Gun laws-Oklahoma
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:08:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RatTerrier:
Here's what he said....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBaker
Is it illegal legal to add a stock to a pistol?
EX. putting a stock on a glock (legal or not, I would never dream of doing this). Just curious.

Yes as long as it follows the rules of being a "rifle" when it is configured as such. If its is made to be a "short-barreled rifle" it has to be registered as such to be legal. It can be configured as a "rifle" but it is still a "pistol". Once a "short-barreled rifle" always a "short-barreled rifle". Even though you could configure it to be pistol-like it is still registered as a "short-barreled rifle".


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBaker
Is it illegal legal to remove a stock and go with a pistol grip only with a rifle?
EX. removing the butt stock of an AK47,but leave the pistol grip there

As long as its barrel is 16" long and has an over-all length of 26". The 26" can vary from state to state but Oklahomas definition is the same as the federal law, which is 26".


Quote:
Originally Posted by LastManStanding
Ahh but the real question is does adding a stock to a pistol make it a rifle? It doesnt modify the way the gun shoots in any way so I'd assume that it wouldn't be considered a rifle.

It doesn't make it a "rifle" but it has to abide by the rules of being a "rifle" when a stock is on it. If you build a "short-barreled rifle" ,and register it, it is and always will be a "short-barreled rifle" from then on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Drown
This is an interesting debate and we've had these discussions before. I fall into this specifically since I have a Thompson Encore. It's both a pistol and a rifle depending upon the configuration.

Actually it is a "pistol" but must abide by the rules of "rifle" when in such a configuration. If it was a "rifle" it could never be a "pistol".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Drown
I believe someone had looked up the law on it, and it was somewhat entertaining. I has to do with the order it's assembled. If I have the rifle grip on my Encore, and put on a 12 inch pistol barrel, it's an illegal gun. However, If I put the barrel on first, then put the pistol grip on, it's a legal gun. Similarily, if I have the rifle stock and barrel assembled, and put the pistol grip on first before removing the barrel, it's once again an illegal gun.

Apparently it's your word on how it was assembled unless someone witnesses it. This came up at a match where someone had their Contender in rifle configuration, and disassembled and reassembled it in the wrong order and they wouldn't let them shoot. They had to reassemble it in the proper order to be a legal gun for the competition.

Strange stuff.

Yeah I wouldn't be worried about having such things unless you do something else illegal. I am sure that some people that have AR-15s also have AR pistols. If you got caught doing something wrong they might try to pin you with contructive intent to build an illegal "short-barreled rifle" or something. As long as you do nothing else wrong it unlikely anything would happen.

P.S. if you really want to be confused try to find the law that says that a pistol with a forward grip is an "any other weapon".



I just noticed I answered his questions as if he said is it legal not illegal
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:16:22 AM EDT
Yes you can make any AR an SBR. $200 tax stamp and transfer through your local class II-III dealer. Takes about 3-8 months( hopefully )

AR's with less than 16 inch barrels have to be registered as SBRs

AR's registered as pistols are always going to be pistols unless you put a stock on it and register it as an SBR. An AR pistol with a stock on it is against the law unless registered as an SBR. I.E. HK sp89 is a pistol but add a folding stock to it and it must be registered as an SBR.

If you have a DIAS or registered machine gun, you can do whatever you want to it
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:01:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 12:06:04 PM EDT by chvylvr350]

Originally Posted By Joe_JBGuns:
AR's registered as pistols are always going to be pistols unless you put a stock on it and register it as an SBR. An AR pistol with a stock on it is against the law unless registered as an SBR.
That is only true if the "pistol" has a barrel less than 16" and a stock added. You can have a "pistol" reciever with a 16" barrel on it and its still a "pistol", but it can become a legal "rifle" just by adding a stock without SBR'ing it. There is no need to SBR it if it abides by the rules of being a "rifle."



Example: www.mechtechsys.com/
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:43:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 3:01:09 PM EDT by Joe_JBGuns]
I believe I covered the part about a rifle having less than a 16 inch barrel.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:18:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingman26:

Edit-And yes, you have BRD. I'm Justin, and I too have BRD.

That's a pretty common problem around here!


Is BRD bloody red diarrhea?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:09:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Wingman26:

Edit-And yes, you have BRD. I'm Justin, and I too have BRD.

That's a pretty common problem around here!


Is BRD bloody red diarrhea?



Big Red Dick



MLW>"<
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:20:28 PM EDT
OK let me get this straight cause I've never studied the federal law on this are you guys saying that you can go back and forth with a pistol recieiver


I'm just wondering because i know I've read it on the ar15 part of the sight at least 4-5 times people saying you cant take a pistol to rifle configuration and then back again.......
I'm talking letter of the law not what you can do and most likely never get caught........

It was my understanding once it was converted to a rifle you could not legaly take it back to a pistol Hence the reason they sell two difrent versions of the ENCORE

I'm not saying anyones wrong I'm just looking for a clarification.....I've never studied the ar pistol thing cause they don't intrest me.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:44:02 PM EDT
According to what Matt Wren ( he was/is our N.E. Oklahoma ATF agent ) at the ATF office in OKC told me, once it's logged in as a rifle or pistol that is what will be for the rest of it's life. That cannot be changed.
I was also told, by Matt, that once an AR reciever is logged as a pistol, it is illegal for it to take a rifle configuration, i.e. having a butt stock, unless SBR'd, and when you do that you are creating a new firearm and must go through an SOT holder who can manufacture firearms. I'm pretty sure that's correct.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:59:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Joe_JBGuns:
According to what Matt Wren ( he was/is our N.E. Oklahoma ATF agent ) at the ATF office in OKC told me, once it's logged in as a rifle or pistol that is what will be for the rest of it's life. That cannot be changed.
I was also told, by Matt, that once an AR reciever is logged as a pistol, it is illegal for it to take a rifle configuration, i.e. having a butt stock, unless SBR'd, and when you do that you are creating a new firearm and must go through an SOT holder who can manufacture firearms. I'm pretty sure that's correct.



Ok we'er on the same sheet of music mine was just in a diffrent key................
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:18:25 PM EDT
Great minds think alike
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:48:23 PM EDT
There was a legal ruling about the Thompson Contender several years ago that muddied up the waters quite a bit when it comes to converting a receiver back and forth between a rifle and pistol.
I've been told a pistol can be made into a rifle - 16 in barrel - without being registered as an SBR. But once it has been a rifle, it cannot be made back into a pistol.
It's screwy as hell, BATF rulings change all the time. If you register an AR receiver as a pistol, get a copy of the 4473 showing what you have done and keep if for future reference. Later on you maybe be able to make it into a full length rifle but it may be a one way street.
You can write and ask for a clarifcation from the BATF and they should respond. CYA with it and DO NOT TRUST what you read on these forums. I'm not saying that it may not be correct but that it may be outdated. Better safe than sorry!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:30:10 PM EDT
Good topic!
OK, heres one that I didnt get from the above reading;
Does an upper, in order to be a pistol and recorded as such, have to be marked "pistol"? -at least in OK, anyway.

thanks in advance!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:55:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 5:58:52 PM EDT by Joe_JBGuns]
No, nothing realy gets marked. You just have to carry your class II or III tax stamp with you. The reciever is what is registered, uppers are not.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:06:53 PM EDT
I beleive only the receiver (part with the serial #)is whats considered the "firearm" part of a gun, thats why you can buy the carbine kits that fit on glock-1911s ect., as long as the receiver isn't modified to accept the upper/barrel, its stays as pistol, but if it started out as a rifle, it has to stay as a rifle, or has to be reregistered as a SBR, it cannot become a pistol.


MLW>"<
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:07:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Big Red Dick



MLW>"<



Must be a common ailment with many! Fortunately, I don't suffer from it!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:28:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Ndenway:

Big Red Dick



MLW>"<



Must be a common ailment with many! Fortunately, I don't suffer from it!



only get it after a real good date.

MLW>"<
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:39:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 9:04:33 PM EDT by chvylvr350]

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
OK let me get this straight cause I've never studied the federal law on this are you guys saying that you can go back and forth with a pistol recieiver

I'm just wondering because i know I've read it on the ar15 part of the sight at least 4-5 times people saying you cant take a pistol to rifle configuration and then back again.......
I'm talking letter of the law not what you can do and most likely never get caught........

It was my understanding once it was converted to a rifle you could not legaly take it back to a pistol Hence the reason they sell two difrent versions of the ENCORE

I'm not saying anyones wrong I'm just looking for a clarification.....I've never studied the ar pistol thing cause they don't intrest me.



Yes you can go back in forth with a "pistol" reciever. You can not however go back and forth with a "rifle" reciever without SBR'ing it. I think what you have read is that once a stripped reciever, before being sold to someone cannot be made into a "rifle" or it is forever a "rifle". It has to be a "pistol" on the 4473.


Originally Posted By Joe_JBGuns:
According to what Matt Wren ( he was/is our N.E. Oklahoma ATF agent ) at the ATF office in OKC told me, once it's logged in as a rifle or pistol that is what will be for the rest of it's life. That cannot be changed.
I was also told, by Matt, that once an AR reciever is logged as a pistol, it is illegal for it to take a rifle configuration, i.e. having a butt stock, unless SBR'd, and when you do that you are creating a new firearm and must go through an SOT holder who can manufacture firearms. I'm pretty sure that's correct.



The first paragraph of your post is true. The second part is kinda backwards. "Pistols" can be configured as "rifles", but a "rifle" can never be a "pistol", only be made pistol-like if SBR'ed. This is after it is logged from the FFL to an individual not before. It must be sold to the individual from the FFL as a "pistol" for it to work. You may be able to remake a "rifle" into a "pistol" if you are a firearm manufacturer and go through all the hoops, but an individual cannot.


Originally Posted By danc46:
I've been told a pistol can be made into a rifle - 16 in barrel - without being registered as an SBR. But once it has been a rifle, it cannot be made back into a pistol.
It's screwy as hell, BATF rulings change all the time. If you register an AR receiver as a pistol, get a copy of the 4473 showing what you have done and keep if for future reference. Later on you maybe be able to make it into a full length rifle but it may be a one way street.
You can write and ask for a clarifcation from the BATF and they should respond. CYA with it and DO NOT TRUST what you read on these forums. I'm not saying that it may not be correct but that it may be outdated. Better safe than sorry!

I don't claim to be a lawyer or anything, but I am trying to make things clear and true. The key is in the word or law, which I have right next to me. I have seen this issue discussed before and have spent time reading the definitions in the federal firarms regulations.

Why can't a "rifle" be made into a "pistol?" Because the definition of a "pistol" says it must be "originally designed, made, and intended to be fired from one hand."

Why can a "pistol" be made into a "rifle?" Because in the definition for a "rifle" it says "A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intented to be fired from the shoulder." The words "redesigned" and "remade" are why a "pistol" can become a "rifle", but it is still a "pistol" because it was "originally designed" to be fired from one hand.


Originally Posted By Ndenway:
I beleive only the receiver (part with the serial #)is whats considered the "firearm" part of a gun, thats why you can buy the carbine kits that fit on glock-1911s ect., as long as the receiver isn't modified to accept the upper/barrel, its stays as pistol, but if it started out as a rifle, it has to stay as a rifle, or has to be reregistered as a SBR, it cannot become a pistol.<



Exactly!

I am just stating what I believe to be true. I am no lawyer or expert on the subject, but have researched it alot. I am just trying to save someone $200 if they don't need to spend it to do what they want.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:04:40 PM EDT
duh, I meant lower.



Originally Posted By olyeller:
Good topic!
OK, heres one that I didnt get from the above reading;
Does an upper, in order to be a pistol and recorded as such, have to be marked "pistol"? -at least in OK, anyway.

thanks in advance!

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:19:52 AM EDT
I'm going to get my Class 3 license this year. And a can for my AR and 10/22 and Ruger Mark I as well. What the heck!! Ohhhhh......I could see about gettin my Ruger 41 mag barrel threaded n put one on it, hahahaha. Do cans work very well on a revolver??
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 3:09:16 PM EDT
A suppressor on a revolver would be lousy. Yes you can do it, and yes it would make it quieter. The problem is a great deal of noise escapes from the barrel - cylinder gap. You can lessen the muzzle blast, but the noise from that gap will still be there and will be relatively loud. The old Russian Nagant revolvers have a mechanism where the cylinder moves forward and seals against the barrel when shot, but from what I've heard, they still aren't particularly quiet. You'll be much happier suppressing automatics.

Also it got posted a couple times that if one wanted an SBR'd lower it would somehow have to go through an SOT. This is incorrect, or atleast not the most efficient way to do it. Brief version, if you want to SBR your lower, fill out and submit a Form 1 (Application to Manufacture an NFA firearm) with all the applicable extras (including $200 check). Once approved, then you have a registered SBR and you can put your SBR upper on it. There's a little more to it but that's the basics. If you want the more detailed version IM me or check out the Bardwell NFA site. Anyone can submit a Form 1 for a SBR, SBS, or Suppressor. Only SOTs with the corresponding FFL type can submit a Form 1 for a machinegun.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 3:27:04 PM EDT
Thanks for the info Scott, you should know about this stuff thats for sure! And okay, no can for my 41 magnum, hahaha.
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