OK So the main reason we cant make our offlist lowers into 22's because of the open magwell right? What if we put a 22 upper on the lower and put two quarter inch bolts in instead of the take down pins, and put a small tig weld on the nut to keep everything from opening up? I personally don't see any problem with that because then it would permanently be a rimfire rifle and require modification and tools to make it illegal. Am I right or wrong here?

Why not just pin the .22 rimfire mag like you would a regular mag, and then open the upper to load the mag. Damn little 22s are just as much a pain to load in the mag with the mag out as with it in.

I had 2 30 round mags for the Ciener conversion I use in a dedicated AR (which shoots just great thank you). I sold both because quite frankly the time and effort required to load 30 .22 rimfire rounds was more trouble than the fun shooting them produced. The 10 rounders are just fine for me.

Only reason I'm against popping the top is because my Fab10 is getting sloppy....

In case you haven't heard, I love rimfires. Who can't love a gun that you can vomit lead downrange and not have someone scoff at you for wasting money, not taking your time, or blasting your ear drums?

I, however, have been INSANELY cautious of building up my AR-15s, in fact I have refused to buy parts for them in any way, even if I had plans to use them on a different rifles (like a custom 10/22 stock idea I wanted to do which got put on hold). Does that mean I am right, or that doing otherwise is wrong? Not at all, but I would be very iffy about it.

The one thing I would be cautious of is how the law is interpreted by people, especially the DOJ. I was once told via email that the DOJ doesn't care what configuration the rifle was in; if the receiver could be assembled with and function properly with all the parts of a banned firearm, then it was banned. This was of course before the whole non-listed mess; and Fab-10 style rifles might make you think otherwise (of course they could argue that the lack of function from the mag release and magazine itself is enough alteration to make it a non-[insert model name]). I personally am refraining from building any of my lowers up as a 22 until I feel it is safe. I would however have no problem milling out a closed mag well 80%er to the point where I could use a modified 22 mag if it couldn't use AR mags in any way. Honestly, I doubt you would be busted for it, but you might get hassled at the range by some less informed know-nothing so that alone would dissuade me to not do it. Then again, why not? I would just be cautious how you build it, for example put the pistol grip on last, or unpin the mag once the upper is bolt on. Whatever you do, just be cautious of how you do it.

AW laws apply only to center fire rifles.  No need to do anything but buy a .22 conversion and a .22 upper.

Quoted: AW laws apply only to center fire rifles.  No need to do anything but buy a .22 conversion and a .22 upper.

That is correct, but the AW laws do not require the firearm be complete, so if his lower is marked as a centerfire cartridge, like .223 or 5.56mm, and he puts a pistol grip on it and it has the ability to put a removable magazine into it, then his ass is grass.

  It's been some time since I posted these pictures,  thought I'd contribute some ides on how to stay CA legal and still have a killer 22lr. Buy a Millhe
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/22lr2.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Mag.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/Finished.jpg

Quoted: Quoted: AW laws apply only to center fire rifles.  No need to do anything but buy a .22 conversion and a .22 upper. That is correct, but the AW laws do not require the firearm be complete, so if his lower is marked as a centerfire cartridge, like .223 or 5.56mm, and he puts a pistol grip on it and it has the ability to put a removable magazine into it, then his ass is grass.

It is legal to fill in or cover up engraving on a firearm as long as it's not the serial number.  If you're scared of the minor technicalities then a person could do this.

Quoted: Quoted: AW laws apply only to center fire rifles.  No need to do anything but buy a .22 conversion and a .22 upper. That is correct, but the AW laws do not require the firearm be complete, so if his lower is marked as a centerfire cartridge, like .223 or 5.56mm, and he puts a pistol grip on it and it has the ability to put a removable magazine into it, then his ass is grass.

Nope.  A lower is just a lower.  It's not a semi auto centerfire until you put a semiauto centerfire upper on it.

Put a straight pull bolt action 5.56mm upper or a semi auto rimfire upper on it and it's fine.

Quoted: Nope.  A lower is just a lower.  It's not a semi auto centerfire until you put a semiauto centerfire upper on it. Put a straight pull bolt action 5.56mm upper or a semi auto rimfire upper on it and it's fine.

Not true.  There even have been DOJ letters (somewhere - been awhile since I've seen it) that said a 22LR upper conversion would not stop a lower (with pistol grip) from being considered an AW - and there was some handwaving about whether or not the lower was expressly marked  "22LR".   Now this may have been during the Kasler period when an "AR is an AR is an AR..." and AR lowers were series members, whether or not named.

It is too risky - the moment the upper comes off you likely could be regarded as having an illegal AW.   This is expressly an AR and not an AK problem since the action type is separable from the upper - and the primary function of the AR design is to be a semiauto.

DO NOT HAVE AN AR LOWER WITH AN OPEN MAGWELL AND A PISTOL GRIP ATTACHED - regardless of action.  

There is a chance you might win in court.  You don't want to even get near there, though - and expect elevated scrutiny with this whole off-list lower gig.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Quoted: OK So the main reason we cant make our offlist lowers into 22's because of the open magwell right? What if we put a 22 upper on the lower and put two quarter inch bolts in instead of the take down pins, and put a small tig weld on the nut to keep everything from opening up? I personally don't see any problem with that because then it would permanently be a rimfire rifle and require modification and tools to make it illegal. Am I right or wrong here?

Just get a dedicated .22. Loading is very simple. As for the lower getting sloppy there are fixs for that. You can have the back of the receiver tapped for a hex screw that can be adjusted for any movement in the upper. I have a Socom Diamond Lower that has this adjustment screw.
The blue one is the Dedicated .22 Upper.

Quoted: Quoted: Nope.  A lower is just a lower.  It's not a semi auto centerfire until you put a semiauto centerfire upper on it. Put a straight pull bolt action 5.56mm upper or a semi auto rimfire upper on it and it's fine. Not true.  There even have been DOJ letters (somewhere - been awhile since I've seen it) that said a 22LR upper conversion would not stop a lower (with pistol grip) from being considered an AW - and there was some handwaving about whether or not the lower was expressly marked  "22LR".   Now this may have been during the Kasler period when an "AR is an AR is an AR..." and AR lowers were series members, whether or not named.

The rule were clearly diferrent pre kasler.

It is too risky - the moment the upper comes off you likely could be regarded as having an illegal AW.

How so?  Only semi-auto centerfire rifles with specific features are banned. A no name lower is neither centerfire nor semi-auto until an upper receiver making it so is installed on the lower. Even a boot Public defender could beat that rap.