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Posted: 12/19/2012 2:00:13 PM EDT
So, we all know they are going after the "evil black gun" so i want to get a couple stripped lowers in the safe before long. Any chances we can get a group buy on a quality lower, and if so, how many people would be interested? I know i want at least 1 .223 and one .308 lower.

Link Posted: 12/19/2012 2:03:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigedmond:
So, we all know they are going after the "evil black gun" so i want to get a couple stripped lowers in the safe before long. Any chances we can get a group buy on a quality lower, and if so, how many people would be interested? I know i want at least 1 .223 and one .308 lower.



Aero 3 and 5 Packs at NFA.
Link Posted: 12/19/2012 3:02:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ishoot2live:
Originally Posted By Bigedmond:
So, we all know they are going after the "evil black gun" so i want to get a couple stripped lowers in the safe before long. Any chances we can get a group buy on a quality lower, and if so, how many people would be interested? I know i want at least 1 .223 and one .308 lower.



Aero 3 and 5 Packs at NFA.


None currently in stock and good luck getting them if they ever come in. The list is a mile long
Link Posted: 12/19/2012 3:28:30 PM EDT
I think NFA was offering forgings.



Yes indeed, here is the link.

Handy with a mill?
Link Posted: 12/19/2012 4:43:39 PM EDT
It would be cool if everyone throws money together for the tools to finish lowers. It would ease up the initial price shock.
Link Posted: 12/19/2012 5:25:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2012 5:08:54 AM EDT
Buy a CNC. Make your own
Link Posted: 12/20/2012 8:30:54 AM EDT
group buy on a cnc?
Link Posted: 12/20/2012 9:09:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Obo2:
group buy on a cnc?


IN
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 8:59:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hopball3:
It would be cool if everyone throws money together for the tools to finish lowers. It would ease up the initial price shock.

Cost of tools is gonna be at least a few $1000. But cost isn't the main isue. The drilling tool/die for the buffer tube threads is sometimes impossible to find. You'll find that everything else needed done to finish out your lower can be done with common tools and dies, except for the buffer tube threading die.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 9:23:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By broke_again:
Originally Posted By ishoot2live:
Originally Posted By Bigedmond:
So, we all know they are going after the "evil black gun" so i want to get a couple stripped lowers in the safe before long. Any chances we can get a group buy on a quality lower, and if so, how many people would be interested? I know i want at least 1 .223 and one .308 lower.



Aero 3 and 5 Packs at NFA.


None currently in stock and good luck getting them if they ever come in. The list is a mile long


The last time I put in an order for 5 NFA lowers it was months ago before all this craziness and I had to wait 2 months for them to come in.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 10:00:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2012 12:07:40 PM EDT by RichardSIA]
Have you all really forgotten so quickly?

When the former Ban came down I had a dozen lowers on hand.

ATF agents showed up in person to inform me that any lower which had not been "assembled" was now a post-ban, no matter how long ago it had been made!

So stocking up on lowers will do little good.
Martha Stewart did not go to prison for insider trading, she went for lying about it to the Fed.

Rather than spend a lot to possibly get a partial post-ban gun, spend less in careful donations to stop any ban from happening!

As to CNC, I have one.
Matsuura MC1000V with twenty station tool changer.
I even have all the necessary licenses to be legal.
Wanna contribute some tooling and programming time?
Even with this head start beginning from scratch would not be cheap.

Anyone who thinks they can make a decent AR lower on one of those eBay toy CNC's has never cut a chip.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 11:52:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RichardSIA:
Have you all really forgotten so quickly?

When the former Ban came down I had a dozen lowers on hand.

ATF agents showed up in person to inform me that any lower which had not been "assembled" was now a post-ban, no matter how long ago it had been made!

So stocking up on lowers will do little good,
Martha Stewart did not go to prison for insider trading, she went for lying about it to the Fed.

Rather than spend a lot to possibly get a partial post-ban gun, spend less in careful donations to stop any ban from happening!

As to CNC, I have one.
Matsuura MC1000V with twenty station tool changer.
I even have all the necessary licenses to be legal.
Wanna contribute some tooling and programming time?
Even with this head start beginning from scratch would not be cheap.

Anyone who thinks they can make a decent AR lower on one of those eBay toy CNC's has never cut a chip.


I'm just curious, did they say you couldn't assemble them or that you had to assemble them to be compliant with the 94 ban (if that was even possible), or did they just say they were illegal. It seems odd that they did this.

Link Posted: 12/25/2012 12:05:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2012 12:13:07 PM EDT by RichardSIA]
Had to be assembled "Neutered", no flash hider or threaded muzzle, no bayonet lug, etc. as per the ban spec.
They demanded to know who I had sold to recently as well.
I know folk were contacted and proof demanded by ATF that the lower had had been assembled before the date.
Since they knew the transfer date they also knew how much time the buyer had to do the assembly.

It's questionable that any of this was legal per the fourth amendment, but then ATF only exist due to infringement of the second!
ATF can make life hell for dealers who do not comply with their "Request".

Edit; What I found scary was that ATF obviously knew exactly when the ban was going to go into effect ahead of time, and had enough agents at the ready to visit every manufacturer!
Those visits gave them the cut-off for pre and post-ban receiver serial numbers.

I cannot be the only one who remembers all this?
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 3:22:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RichardSIA:
Had to be assembled "Neutered", no flash hider or threaded muzzle, no bayonet lug, etc. as per the ban spec.
They demanded to know who I had sold to recently as well.
I know folk were contacted and proof demanded by ATF that the lower had had been assembled before the date.
Since they knew the transfer date they also knew how much time the buyer had to do the assembly.

It's questionable that any of this was legal per the fourth amendment, but then ATF only exist due to infringement of the second!
ATF can make life hell for dealers who do not comply with their "Request".

Edit; What I found scary was that ATF obviously knew exactly when the ban was going to go into effect ahead of time, and had enough agents at the ready to visit every manufacturer!
Those visits gave them the cut-off for pre and post-ban receiver serial numbers.

I cannot be the only one who remembers all this?


If you bought say 5 lowers and have an upper ready to go. What stops you from building the lower, one at a time, slapping an upper on it. Taking a proof of life photo. Then moving on and doing it with the other 4 one at a time? Also I can see them rousting manufacturers. They would not have the same manpower to hit up every buyer. Nor would they have PC to get in our doors.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 4:47:10 PM EDT
That is pretty much what some folk did.
And I guess it worked for most of them, not certain.

The gun-grabbers and ATF both got practice for how to do it next time, so I would not count on it being so simple this time.

Isn't the "New Ban" being written to just flat out make them illegal, no exceptions, no grandfathering, no passing them down to your children or spouse?

Instead of those lucky enough to be able to attempt to do so stocking up, I would rather we just stop any new ban cold and let everyone keep their RKBA.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 5:27:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RichardSIA:
That is pretty much what some folk did.
And I guess it worked for most of them, not certain.

The gun-grabbers and ATF both got practice for how to do it next time, so I would not count on it being so simple this time.

Isn't the "New Ban" being written to just flat out make them illegal, no exceptions, no grandfathering, no passing them down to your children or spouse?

Instead of those lucky enough to be able to attempt to do so stocking up, I would rather we just stop any new ban cold and let everyone keep their RKBA.


I read Eff-Stein's bill and the most disconcerting thing is the ban on transfers. Forgetting for a moment that this may not be legal, this ban basically means that you can keep you gun till you die and then it gets taken. During the 94 ban you could transfer your pre ban weapons which caused them to command quite a premium. This bill is substantially more invidious because what you have when the ban takes place is what you got, nothing more, nothing less. Of course this means your gun collection becomes valueless which is what could make this portion of the bill illegal.

I'm not a sky's falling kinda guy and don't believe that there is going to be any ban because the Republican's hold the House and there is a fairly substantial amount of evidence that these types of bills don't have any real effect on crime or mass shootings. This type of bill is a knee jerk reaction by democrats because that is their mindset. They think anytime anything bad happens they can fix it with yet another piece of legislation. Of course I'm the same guy who said no way they are going to get Obama Care through and they did so my predictions aren't the best.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 7:31:20 PM EDT
I agree bro that's the part that scares me. (Transfers). My proposed strategy would only work for me and my kids who would each own one of the hypothetical lowers.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 8:25:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2012 8:33:28 PM EDT by LVJD]
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
I agree bro that's the part that scares me. (Transfers). My proposed strategy would only work for me and my kids who would each own one of the hypothetical lowers.


I think what we are really going to have to worry about is the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) provision, 18 U.S. Code Section 925(d)(3), which prohibits the importation of firearms except those that are “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” This law leaves a great deal open to interpretation and I think Obama's is going to view this with the utmost scrutiny and forbid importation of guns that are produced overseas sent here in a neutered form and then altered back. Things like SCAR's Saiga 12's AK's etc. are in big trouble. I think ATF is going to say that these are easily convertible weapons have no "sporting purpose" and going to see increased scrutiny by the ATF which will say no more imports. This is the type of thing the ATF will do and there is no real congressional oversight on these bureaucratic shenanigans. I think our AR's are safe but I'm thinking that Tavor I've been eyeing ain't going to happen.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 8:40:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LVJD:
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
I agree bro that's the part that scares me. (Transfers). My proposed strategy would only work for me and my kids who would each own one of the hypothetical lowers.


I think what we are really going to have to worry about is the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) provision, 18 U.S. Code Section 925(d)(3), which prohibits the importation of firearms except those that are “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” This law leaves a great deal open to interpretation and I think Obama's is going to view this with the utmost scrutiny and forbid importation of guns that are produced overseas sent here in a neutered form and then altered back. Things like SCAR's Saiga 12's AK's etc. are in big trouble. I think ATF is going to say that these are easily convertible weapons have no "sporting purpose" and going to see increased scrutiny by the ATF which will say no more imports. This is the type of thing the ATF will do and there is no real congressional oversight on these bureaucratic shenanigans. I think our AR's are safe but I'm thinking that Tavor I've been eyeing ain't going to happen.


If you think AR's are safe you are sadly mistaken. IF this gets pushed thru seeing as two of the last big stories involved AR's , you can be sure Obama bin Biden Der Fuhrer will be sure that they are included in the wording specifically.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 9:43:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2012 9:45:48 PM EDT by RichardSIA]
That "there is no real congressional oversight on these bureaucratic shenanigans" is the root of much misery in America.

It's also an affront to our constitution (what isn't these days?!) as only congress is supposed to have the power to make law.
Congress got fat and lazy, granting all the alphabet agencies the "Authority" to "Write implementing regulations".
They cannot be bothered to actually write clear and concise law, or actually review the proposed "Regulations" which are indiscernible from "Law" as required under our constitution.
They like it this way as it allows them to write very bad, very vague laws, let the bureaucrats implement them, and then deny responsibility for the resulting crap laws.

We missed a real opportunity when we did not force repeal of the "Sporting Purpose" crap while our RKBA was really on the rise.

Swine-stein has promised to ban both by name and feature, as I said, they learned from the failures and exceptions of the '94 ban, and intend to make this much worse.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 10:28:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Vegas-Henchman:
Originally Posted By LVJD:
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
I agree bro that's the part that scares me. (Transfers). My proposed strategy would only work for me and my kids who would each own one of the hypothetical lowers.


I think what we are really going to have to worry about is the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) provision, 18 U.S. Code Section 925(d)(3), which prohibits the importation of firearms except those that are “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” This law leaves a great deal open to interpretation and I think Obama's is going to view this with the utmost scrutiny and forbid importation of guns that are produced overseas sent here in a neutered form and then altered back. Things like SCAR's Saiga 12's AK's etc. are in big trouble. I think ATF is going to say that these are easily convertible weapons have no "sporting purpose" and going to see increased scrutiny by the ATF which will say no more imports. This is the type of thing the ATF will do and there is no real congressional oversight on these bureaucratic shenanigans. I think our AR's are safe but I'm thinking that Tavor I've been eyeing ain't going to happen.


If you think AR's are safe you are sadly mistaken. IF this gets pushed thru seeing as two of the last big stories involved AR's , you can be sure Obama bin Biden Der Fuhrer will be sure that they are included in the wording specifically.


3. The two firefighters killer and two wounded. One of the felons guns was a Bushy AR.
Link Posted: 12/25/2012 10:53:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
Originally Posted By Vegas-Henchman:
Originally Posted By LVJD:
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
I agree bro that's the part that scares me. (Transfers). My proposed strategy would only work for me and my kids who would each own one of the hypothetical lowers.


I think what we are really going to have to worry about is the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) provision, 18 U.S. Code Section 925(d)(3), which prohibits the importation of firearms except those that are “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” This law leaves a great deal open to interpretation and I think Obama's is going to view this with the utmost scrutiny and forbid importation of guns that are produced overseas sent here in a neutered form and then altered back. Things like SCAR's Saiga 12's AK's etc. are in big trouble. I think ATF is going to say that these are easily convertible weapons have no "sporting purpose" and going to see increased scrutiny by the ATF which will say no more imports. This is the type of thing the ATF will do and there is no real congressional oversight on these bureaucratic shenanigans. I think our AR's are safe but I'm thinking that Tavor I've been eyeing ain't going to happen.


If you think AR's are safe you are sadly mistaken. IF this gets pushed thru seeing as two of the last big stories involved AR's , you can be sure Obama bin Biden Der Fuhrer will be sure that they are included in the wording specifically.


3. The two firefighters killer and two wounded. One of the felons guns was a Bushy AR.


You must be mistaken, that happened in New York where there is already an AWB. Plus, this guy was an ex felon, so he must have done the shooting with a black powder rifle. That's the only kind of firearm the law lets guys like him have.

Link Posted: 12/25/2012 11:39:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LVJD:
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
Originally Posted By Vegas-Henchman:
Originally Posted By LVJD:
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
I agree bro that's the part that scares me. (Transfers). My proposed strategy would only work for me and my kids who would each own one of the hypothetical lowers.


I think what we are really going to have to worry about is the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) provision, 18 U.S. Code Section 925(d)(3), which prohibits the importation of firearms except those that are “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” This law leaves a great deal open to interpretation and I think Obama's is going to view this with the utmost scrutiny and forbid importation of guns that are produced overseas sent here in a neutered form and then altered back. Things like SCAR's Saiga 12's AK's etc. are in big trouble. I think ATF is going to say that these are easily convertible weapons have no "sporting purpose" and going to see increased scrutiny by the ATF which will say no more imports. This is the type of thing the ATF will do and there is no real congressional oversight on these bureaucratic shenanigans. I think our AR's are safe but I'm thinking that Tavor I've been eyeing ain't going to happen.


If you think AR's are safe you are sadly mistaken. IF this gets pushed thru seeing as two of the last big stories involved AR's , you can be sure Obama bin Biden Der Fuhrer will be sure that they are included in the wording specifically.


3. The two firefighters killer and two wounded. One of the felons guns was a Bushy AR.


You must be mistaken, that happened in New York where there is already an AWB. Plus, this guy was an ex felon, so he must have done the shooting with a black powder rifle. That's the only kind of firearm the law lets guys like him have.



Felons can have Black Powder firearms?

I thought they couldn't have ANY firearms (working or not).

Please, someone in LE correct me if I'm wrong.

TIA
Link Posted: 12/26/2012 12:37:40 AM EDT
If I recall in Nevada, state and federal law conflict. It's legal for one but not the other.
Link Posted: 12/26/2012 1:12:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
If I recall in Nevada, state and federal law conflict. It's legal for one but not the other.


The Supremes in Nevada affirmed it is illegal in Nevada.
Link Posted: 12/26/2012 9:25:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ishoot2live:
Originally Posted By Katman6360:
If I recall in Nevada, state and federal law conflict. It's legal for one but not the other.


The Supremes in Nevada affirmed it is illegal in Nevada.


The Feds don't treat antique firearms as firearms hence you want to buy a muzzle loader and have it mailed to your house that is ok. State laws on the issue vary and here in NV the definition of firearm is very broad. In fact when i lived in Florida we had to prove that a firearm was either operable (by test firing it) or demonstrating that it had all the necessary parts to function before initiating prosecution for ex felon in possession of a fire arm. Here the gun need not be functional at all to sustain such a prosecution. My understanding is that in NY muzzle loaders are available to ex felons such as the guy that shot the fire fighters and in any event he could have walked into a sporting goods store and picked up such a rifle without enduring any background check whatsoever. It is a moot point in any event since under no set of circumstances should this guy have been lowed to have an AR.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 5:31:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RichardSIA:
Have you all really forgotten so quickly?

When the former Ban came down I had a dozen lowers on hand.

ATF agents showed up in person to inform me that any lower which had not been "assembled" was now a post-ban, no matter how long ago it had been made!

So stocking up on lowers will do little good.
Martha Stewart did not go to prison for insider trading, she went for lying about it to the Fed.

Rather than spend a lot to possibly get a partial post-ban gun, spend less in careful donations to stop any ban from happening!

As to CNC, I have one.
Matsuura MC1000V with twenty station tool changer.
I even have all the necessary licenses to be legal.
Wanna contribute some tooling and programming time?
Even with this head start beginning from scratch would not be cheap.

Anyone who thinks they can make a decent AR lower on one of those eBay toy CNC's has never cut a chip.


Correct me if I'm wrong but the CNC plans exist online and can be loaded on the machine and you sit back and wait. I've never run one but that's all I ver see/hear about them. I'd spend some time in a shop for a lower, I'd even do it during the week and push a broom while its cutting.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 8:48:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2012 8:52:15 AM EDT by RichardSIA]
If ONLY it were that easy!

In reality the on-line drawings are just drawings, not the G-Code programs which tell the machine how to select and move the tools.
Even if they were the actual program, every make or model of machine uses slightly different programming.
Then there is buying and setting up the tools and offsets, making fixtures, etc.

If you want any efficiency you need to set up multiple fixtures, even on modern high-speed machines.
I know a guy who does cut uppers and lowers from billet, even with his decades of experience he scrapped several before getting the program perfected.

I have a programmer who could do this, but I'm not sure how many would want to pay the price required to yield a decent profit.
Add in the fact that I am unknown as a maker of AR lowers, and that the current panic is temporary weather we win or lose in congress.
Give me a guaranteed decently large number of sales in a fairly short time and I will begin on Monday.

If you want to try programming to make your own parts, start by downloading a free student CAD program and learning to render the 3D model.
Then learn to post the G-code.
You can rent machine time, but if you crash the machine, oh brother does THAT get expensive!

Post ban I suppose we will now have to register our CNC's too.
Come to think of it, I think the Japanese have already made that part of the U.N. Small Arms Treaty O'Bummer is so anxious to sign.
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 9:27:12 AM EDT

Correct me if I'm wrong but the CNC plans exist online and can be loaded on the machine and you sit back and wait. I've never run one but that's all I ver see/hear about them. I'd spend some time in a shop for a lower, I'd even do it during the week and push a broom while its cutting.


That is only on American Chopper..... there is a whole lot more work involved with CNC , cant just load , punch a button and go...... well I guess you could , if you were willing to wreck the machine and all tooling
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 3:07:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2012 3:11:20 PM EDT by Hellion-Productions]
A useful link in times such as these...

http://www.firearmfiles.com/andromeda.php?q=f&f=%2Ffiles%2FAR15

http://www.cncguns.com

And, yes, you can make an AR lower on a desktop toy, or at least a Taig CNC. You can make one on a 3d printer. You can make one out of wood. You can make one out of cutting board plastics. You can't stop the signal...

http://johnbearross.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-cant-stop-signal-homebrew-ar-15s.html

Enjoy!

Best,
JBR
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 4:16:25 PM EDT
This guy turned a shovel into an AK 47 so there may be hope for us all yet....... unless they confiscate our shovels:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!
Link Posted: 12/27/2012 6:52:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2012 7:04:12 PM EDT by Hellion-Productions]
Here's the wood AR lower.

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8035&PN=2&TPN=1

The same guy did an HDPE (cutting board plastic) lower a few pages later in the same thread.

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8035&PN=2&TPN=3

Here's another guy that did one out of sheet metal and welded parts.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=30;t=11628

Nothing's impossible. It just takes will, and a few tools.

Best,
JBR
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