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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/4/2005 11:47:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 11:49:17 PM EDT by m98codered]
my cousin and I have this argument on which would be better for defense against a charging bear. the cal. is .40s/w vs .45acp. my argument is that a .40 loaded hot with either hard cast bullets or fully jacketed/bonded may be the better choice for penetration. my cousins just says the .45 is still better.

I need some insights because my buddie who wants to get the sidearm for hunting wants to just get a .357sig but I said.40, that's when my cousin got into the argument about just getting a 1911 in .45. my buddy who's going to be the buyer ony wants one in a semiauto and not revolver style.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:53:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 12:11:53 AM EDT by TheTracker]

Originally Posted By m98codered:
my cousin and I have this argument on which would be better for defense against a charging bear. the cal. is .40s/w vs .45acp. my argument is that a .40 loaded hot with either hard cast bullets or fully jacketed/bonded may be the better choice for penetration. my cousins just says the .45 is still better.

I need some insights because my buddie who wants to get the sidearm for hunting wants to just get a .357sig but I said.40, that's when my cousin got into the argument about just getting a 1911 in .45. my buddy who's going to be the buyer ony wants one in a semiauto and not revolver style.



The truth is neither is a good cal to stop a charging bear.You woud most likely die. 44mag or larger
And Im assuming you mean a grizzly not a black
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:55:55 PM EDT
my minimum would be a true 10mm load
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 12:19:29 AM EDT
my min would be a 375H&H
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 1:46:52 AM EDT
.45-70 minimum.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 1:57:16 AM EDT
500 smeef or 454 casull or a real hot 44 mag load. A 40 or 45 would more than likely just piss the bruin off. They might kill the bear but not before it dines on you and your friend.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 2:48:35 AM EDT
.44 mag
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 5:25:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
my minimum would be a true 10mm load



+1 on the 10mm. Since he insists on an auto this is the best choice.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 5:57:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 6:02:11 AM EDT
It seems like it would need to be a large caliber, high velocity round to penetrate all the muscle and "fat" on the beast. I recall another discussion on this same topic a while back. 44 mag seemed to rule as the top choice as it was powerful enough and controlable, unlike the 50 SW. I don't believe the 10mm was mentioned, but then again the auto requirments wasn't either.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:30:40 AM EDT
what's the consensus...go for a brain shot? I'm sure it'd look more like a quick mag dump of desperation.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 10:10:43 AM EDT
bears have really thick skulls. Good luck
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 6:10:32 PM EDT
1. it's for just blackies
2. it's got to be an auto because it's secondary job is also personal/home defense
3. the handgun will only be used as a backup and not for the hunting it's self
4. I know that the bigger 44's/454's/500's are wayy better but that's only available in a revolver .
5. It may also be used in defense against crop farmers, so the revolver here wouldn't be a great idea against ak's/fals
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 6:53:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m98codered:
1. it's for just blackies
2. it's got to be an auto because it's secondary job is also personal/home defense
3. the handgun will only be used as a backup and not for the hunting it's self
4. I know that the bigger 44's/454's/500's are wayy better but that's only available in a revolver .
5. It may also be used in defense against crop farmers, so the revolver here wouldn't be a great idea against ak's/fals



Ok I'll take a stab...just guesswork, no expertise here.

I'd go with a .40, simply because if you want to go for a decent combination of tissue damage and penetration (especially through a skull) I'm thinking the commonly-available flat point FMJs in .40 might do better than the round ball .45 FMJ.

If you're gonna load up with hollow points, to try to take out vital organs and cause as much damage as possible, I might then lean toward the .45
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:08:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m98codered:
1. it's for just blackies
2. it's got to be an auto because it's secondary job is also personal/home defense
3. the handgun will only be used as a backup and not for the hunting it's self
4. I know that the bigger 44's/454's/500's are wayy better but that's only available in a revolver .
5. It may also be used in defense against crop farmers, so the revolver here wouldn't be a great idea against ak's/fals


definately going with a G20 with extra mags
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:19:46 PM EDT
Even for Grizzlies I woudl not feel underarmed with a .45 acp though I prefer .45 colt....


I would never touch a .40 small and weak for any kind of animal defence situation
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:28:28 PM EDT
I always carry my Springfield Armory XD-40 Tactical with me when I'm hunting. Are you guys telling me that if a bear charged me and I unloaded 12 rounds of .40 ammo into it....it would just keep coming?

Maybe I need to get a bigger gun !!
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:34:25 PM EDT
.44Mag Desert Eagle........revolver cartrige in an auto gun.....

I also heard if you poke a bear in the nose with a sharp stick, it will deter them as well. I haven't found myself secure enough with that to carry around a pocket full of sticks yet though.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:39:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 7:39:58 PM EDT by Dave_A]
Pistol-for-Bear thread #1,135,531,550...

There was a video posted a while ago of a bunch of cops trying to kill a house-invading black bear with service pistols...

Anyone asking about 'What pistol caliber for bear' should dig it up...

(To make a long story short, the bear absorbed a steady stream of pistol fire, and it took a 12GA to actually put it down...)

18" Mossberg with a folding stock???
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:50:20 PM EDT

(To make a long story short, the bear absorbed a steady stream of pistol fire, and it took a 12GA to actually put it down...)




Why?? Is it just beacuse bears have such thick skin/bone that a pistol round won't penatrate?


What would an AR (.223) do against a big grizzly?

Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:47:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imq707s:
I always carry my Springfield Armory XD-40 Tactical with me when I'm hunting. Are you guys telling me that if a bear charged me and I unloaded 12 rounds of .40 ammo into it....it would just keep coming?

Maybe I need to get a bigger gun !!



I don't think you would have time to unload 12 rounds
When they charge they get up to 30miles an hour in about 2 seconds.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:16:27 PM EDT
Aw come on guys, you only need a .22 when confronted by a grizzly.

Put the muzzle in your mouth pointing straight back.

Of course you won't know if it was a bluff charge and he stopped…
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:33:55 PM EDT
maybe just the sound of a pump shotgun being racked will scare it?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:36:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 3:36:40 PM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By twonami:
maybe just the sound of a pump shotgun being racked will scare it?



Twonami---><---this thread
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:57:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 3:58:29 PM EDT by clubsoda22]

Originally Posted By m98codered:
1. it's for just blackies



Shit dude, don't say that too loud around the wrong people.

Seriously though, glock 20 in 10mm with 180gr gold dots from double tap should be pretty sweet,
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:01:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 4:04:20 PM EDT by DasRonin]
I have a Marlin lever action in cal .450 Marlin which I consider minumum for bear. The .450 Marlin is rated some place between 45-70 and .458 Win Mag

A typical handgun caliber would likely show no effect or worse, piss the bear off!

Maybe if a handgun was the only option, 454 Casull or some new production "wildcat" caliber in that category. Fast follow up shots would be difficult with a handgun in that category.

I'd think maybe .357 SIG would do better than a slower bigger caliber like .40 S&W or .45acp. There might be more penetration with the higher velocity and smaller caliber of the .357 SIG. If it does not get through to vital organs, hits in fatty tissue and muscle would do little to stop a bear.

Better & cheaper... pump shotgun with hot sabot slugs!

Just a thought.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:02:19 PM EDT
458 win mag rifle for grizzlies. Got cousins in montana that damn near became lunch. .41 mag and .44 mag ruger blackhawks all twelve rounds hit the bear in the chest. youngest brother came around the bend with a real bear gun .458 win mag with solid bullets. Dropped the bear in it's tracks. Bears claws fell on either side of Gary's feet.

Black Bears? I wouldn't feel under gunned with my .41 or a .44 mag loaded hot as hell with barnes solids.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:03:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imq707s:

(To make a long story short, the bear absorbed a steady stream of pistol fire, and it took a 12GA to actually put it down...)




Why?? Is it just beacuse bears have such thick skin/bone that a pistol round won't penatrate?


What would an AR (.223) do against a big grizzly?


Boy, would it be pissed. You would be lunch.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:10:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DasRonin:
I have a Marlin lever action in cal .450 Marlin which I consider minumum for bear. The .450 Marlin is rated some place between 45-70 and .458 Win Mag

A typical handgun caliber would likely show no effect or worse, piss the bear off!

Maybe if a handgun was the only option, 454 Casull or some new production "wildcat" caliber in that category. Fast follow up shots would be difficult with a handgun in that category.

I'd think maybe .357 SIG would do better than a slower bigger caliber like .40 S&W or .45acp. There might be more penetration with the higher velocity and smaller caliber of the .357 SIG. If it does not get through to vital organs, hits in fatty tissue and muscle would do little to stop a bear.

Better & cheaper... pump shotgun with hot sabot slugs!

Just a thought.



357sig tends to penetrate less than 9mm. Higher velocity makes the bullet deform more quickly and slow down faster.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:58:37 PM EDT
What about a .357 MAG?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:20:30 PM EDT
generally 357 mag can be loaded heavier and hotter than 357 sig. Also a lot of hard cast loads available. Still pretty marginal for bear and he specifically asked for a semi auto. Really makes 10mm his only practical choice.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:26:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:28:53 PM EDT by Mr45auto]
Given the choices YOU LISTED I would go with a 1911 in .45acp with wilson 8 round mags and 230gr .45 SUPER. I would not depend on standard .45acp loadings when you can stuff a more potent round in the gun. YES it is hard on the pistol but you wont be shooting thousands of them either.

www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=416011

Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps
Muzzle Energy: 618 ft. lbs.

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 12:38:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By twonami:
maybe just the sound of a pump shotgun being racked will scare it?



Twonami---><---this thread


Link Posted: 9/7/2005 3:51:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

357sig tends to penetrate less than 9mm. Higher velocity makes the bullet deform more quickly and slow down faster.



Very few commercial loadings use the same bullets in .357 Sig as commercial 9mm loads. Most .357 Sig bullets are designed to handle the higher velocity, to retain 100% of their weight, and to provide at least 12" of penetation. For black bear, the 125 grain Gold Dot load from Georgia Arms or Double Tap is not a bad choice for reliable penetration (16"), expansion, weight retention, and breaking bones.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:39:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Michael_Courtney:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

357sig tends to penetrate less than 9mm. Higher velocity makes the bullet deform more quickly and slow down faster.



Very few commercial loadings use the same bullets in .357 Sig as commercial 9mm loads. Most .357 Sig bullets are designed to handle the higher velocity, to retain 100% of their weight, and to provide at least 12" of penetation. For black bear, the 125 grain Gold Dot load from Georgia Arms or Double Tap is not a bad choice for reliable penetration (16"), expansion, weight retention, and breaking bones.

Michael Courtney



I understand gold dots are excellent for personal defense and hunting(depends on caliber), but wouldn't hornady xtp's or barnes X's do the best when talking about deep penetration&expansion. and was the 16" of penetration tested in gelatin. I honestly still don't see how well the 357sig loaded with golddots or any other hollow point round would out penetrate a 40sw loaded with hardcast or fully encapsulated bullets. it's just the 357sig bullets are too light and being driven too fast and unless it's a fmj type round it'll be very limited to penetration.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:44:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 9:46:30 AM EDT by Michael_Courtney]

Originally Posted By m98codered:

Originally Posted By Michael_Courtney:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

357sig tends to penetrate less than 9mm. Higher velocity makes the bullet deform more quickly and slow down faster.



Very few commercial loadings use the same bullets in .357 Sig as commercial 9mm loads. Most .357 Sig bullets are designed to handle the higher velocity, to retain 100% of their weight, and to provide at least 12" of penetation. For black bear, the 125 grain Gold Dot load from Georgia Arms or Double Tap is not a bad choice for reliable penetration (16"), expansion, weight retention, and breaking bones.

Michael Courtney



I understand gold dots are excellent for personal defense and hunting(depends on caliber), but wouldn't hornady xtp's or barnes X's do the best when talking about deep penetration&expansion. and was the 16" of penetration tested in gelatin. I honestly still don't see how well the 357sig loaded with golddots or any other hollow point round would out penetrate a 40sw loaded with hardcast or fully encapsulated bullets. it's just the 357sig bullets are too light and being driven too fast and unless it's a fmj type round it'll be very limited to penetration.



My reply above was concerning the relative penetration of .357 Sig and 9mm.

Hornady XTPs and Barnes X bullets do usually offer excellent penetration, but I usually don't recommend a bullet for an application unless I have personally tested the bullet or seen published penetration results for a given load from a dependable source. I don't usually recommend a bullet based simply on how that design does in other cartridges and loads. In addition, to my knowledge, there is no commercial loading of the Barnes X bullet in .357 Sig, and the only .40 S&W loading penetrates less than 13". The Hornady 147 grain load in .357 Sig might be worth a look, but I don't think I've seen penetration numbers and I haven't tested it myself.

I have no doubt that a 40 S&W loaded with hardcast or FMJ bullets will out penetrate most or all expanding loads in .357 Sig. However, the relevant question is whether it is worthwhile to accept failure to expand for increased penetration. In most locations, over 90% of black bears weigh less than 400 lbs. Over 90% of the females weigh less than 250 lbs, and females are more prone to attack. Given these facts, one should consider whether or not it would be better to have an expanding bullet that penetrates 16" or a non-expanding bullet that penetrates 24+".

I've never shot a black bear or seen one shot. However, I do know that most hunters who pursue black bears with handgun bullets (either from a handgun or shot from a muzzleloader) prefer expanding bullets because they produce more rapid incapacitation. I have shot a wide variety of other animals, and in all species I have observed that an expanding bullet which may only penetrate 2/3 of the optimal distance generally incapacitates much more rapidly than non-expanding bullets with all the desired penetration.

Another factor to consider is that even in bear country, human attackers are more likely to present a need to use deadly force than bears, especially if the common precautions are taken regarding bear encounters. It is nearly universally agreed upon that expanding bullets do better in humans than non-expanding bullets, so how much performance are you willing to sacrifice in humans (the more likely threat) to gain a possible advantage against a black bear attack (the less likely threat). My advice would be to choose an expanding load which penetrates well and offers good performance against human attackers. Anyone doubting that humans present a greater risk than bears in a given location should find the crime data for the relevant county and compare the number of rapes, murders, and violent assault in that county with the number of bear attacks in that county for a given time period. For most counties in the United States, the numers are not even close.

Michael Courtney
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 11:16:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 11:17:09 AM EDT by clubsoda22]

Originally Posted By Michael_Courtney:

Originally Posted By clubsoda22:

357sig tends to penetrate less than 9mm. Higher velocity makes the bullet deform more quickly and slow down faster.



Very few commercial loadings use the same bullets in .357 Sig as commercial 9mm loads. Most .357 Sig bullets are designed to handle the higher velocity, to retain 100% of their weight, and to provide at least 12" of penetation. For black bear, the 125 grain Gold Dot load from Georgia Arms or Double Tap is not a bad choice for reliable penetration (16"), expansion, weight retention, and breaking bones.

Michael Courtney



Yes, they are different bullets, but tests by manufacturers and independent studies show the same thing. Hollowpoint opens up faster, bullet slows down quicker. It's not enough less penetration to really matter, just slightly less. we're talking 12" average for the 125gr 357 versus 13" for the 124gr 9mm. Basically insignificant.

Custom loads by double tap tend to be excellent performers.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:32:17 PM EDT
Shit man, I've bumped up against a few black bears here in NJ. Actually, they're fucking everywhere.

You best have something bigger than a .40 or a .45.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:50:50 PM EDT
I've never been bear hunting, but I dont think any handgun in anything that starts with a 4 is going to stop a bear unless theres a "-" between a set of numbers. (ie: 45-70).

Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:35:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By otar:
I've never been bear hunting, but I dont think any handgun in anything that starts with a 4 is going to stop a bear unless theres a "-" between a set of numbers. (ie: 45-70).




so in other words a 44mag loaded with some hot ammo is still a no-no for black bears
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:38:05 AM EDT
I'd feel fine with a .45 loaded with 230gr .45super ammo. Of course walking with my 2 german sheperds would probably help. Of course what idiot walks among big bears without a substantial rifle with him in the first place?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:17:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m98codered:

Originally Posted By otar:
I've never been bear hunting, but I dont think any handgun in anything that starts with a 4 is going to stop a bear unless theres a "-" between a set of numbers. (ie: 45-70).




so in other words a 44mag loaded with some hot ammo is still a no-no for black bears


It wouldn't be my first choice.
Now if there was a desert eagle made with .50 bmg....
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 3:46:33 PM EDT
I was actually thinkin of posting nearly the same question a few weeks ago. "which auto pistol caliber for bear" So tag.

Not that I'm worried about being charged by pissed off balistic gelatin in the woods, but does any one have a pic of the 4 way gel test with 9, .357sig, 40, and 45 with a 10mm added in as well?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 4:34:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bushman_269:

Originally Posted By twonami:
my minimum would be a true 10mm load



+1 on the 10mm. Since he insists on an auto this is the best choice.



+2

G20 would fit the bill nicely imo

get a big rifle too
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 4:37:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
Even for Grizzlies I woudl not feel underarmed with a .45 acp



You would if you ever actually saw a pissed-off grizzly up close.
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