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Posted: 8/28/2003 9:31:16 PM EDT
[#1]
I think the term is negligent discharge.
Glad to hear nobody got hurt. Negligent discharges happen, best thing you can do about it is learn from it. There are two types of people, those that have had a negligent discharge, and those yet to have one. If your one of those guys that believe you never will have one because your sooo safe, your probably one of the more dangerous ones. Never believe you are immune to mistakes. That being said I would tell your friend to just accept his mistake and learn from it. Ask him to swollow his pride and allow you to give him a refreser course in safe gun handling. Always treat the gun as if it's loaded be aware of your target and it's surrounds finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot |
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Posted: 8/28/2003 10:05:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Everything YAR said with a repeat on "finger off the trigger until you are ready to shot."
I RO at local IPSC matches, the finger on the trigger is the biggest problem. These are mostly experienced shooters, but the game they play requires a lot of transitioning. I haven't ND'd yet, but I only hope I am following the rule of not pointing my firearm at anything I don't want to destroy when it does happen. You and your friend were lucky and at least somewhat safe(it wasn't pointed at anything). he sounds contrite, forgive him, learn, and go on. TommyB |
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Posted: 8/29/2003 4:44:32 AM EDT
[#3]
I think everyone has had or will have an unintentional (Negligent) discharge in their life. Hopefully none will cause any serious damage or injury.
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Posted: 8/29/2003 6:17:39 AM EDT
[#4]
I have witnessed 3 so far.
One was into my recliner...I wasn't in it. (.22) Another was acrossed a kitchen floor, ripping up some tile and going into the house next door. It was an empty house, luckily, and the 9MM projectile was never noticed. (same guy for both) The 3rd one was in a small basement room where upon checking the function of his model 28 .357, it "went off" blowing the rear hub of his motorcycle to bits. (lesson learned) That one was loud! As tberg says, at LEAST by practicing "point in a safe direction"...if all the other rules are broken, damage will be somewhat minimized. |
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Posted: 8/29/2003 6:48:10 AM EDT
[#5]
It is negligent discharge. There is no such thing as a unintended or accidental discharge. Guns do not go off by themselves.
Having said that. Yes, I have been witness to a negligent discharge. I came pretty close to being killed, considering the bullet wizzed right by my chest maybe 4" away from me. It was a .45 FMJ, from a 1911 that was about 2-3' away from me. My hallway wall IS dead. Same reaction from the responsible party except for the tears part. He apologized for hours. Said he could not believe it happened to him. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you are on target and are ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction (towards the ground) while not engaging targets, loaded or not (see below). ALWAYS treat any weapon as if it were loaded, especially if you've just unloaded it. There is really no reason to bring a loaded weapon into anyone else's home. It's really very simple. |
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Posted: 8/29/2003 8:45:01 AM EDT
[#6]
i didn't want to call it an accident because it wasn't. it was carelessness. It wasn't until i started thinking of this interms of motorcycling that it started to come into perspective. there are 2 types of bikes, those that have gone down and those that will. so i've convinced him to take a pistol tactics course with me. thanks for your replies.
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Posted: 8/29/2003 9:45:32 AM EDT
[#7]
It sounds like he took it to heart, WHICH IS GOOD! Complacency kills. At least he got a wake-up call without any major damage or injury.
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Posted: 8/29/2003 4:49:41 PM EDT
[#8]
Well I don't really agree with that at all. The very simple fact is that if you truly follow the safety rules you will never have a ND. Period. End of story. I also think that it is pretty absurd to assume that because I have not had a ND I am somehow more dangerous.  I have never been in a car accident either, does that mean I am a dangerous driver?  Face it, the people who have had a ND did it because they were not following the safety rules. What keeps the sport safe is a constant adherence to the safety rules, not "luck". |
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Posted: 8/29/2003 5:32:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Sure you can. I've seen people have negligent discharges even following the "rules". I saw one guy who's pistol went off while he was changing magazines with his finger off the trigger. This was during a match, and he was making a fast reload with the gun pointed downrange with his finger out of the trigger guard. He slammed his mag into the pistol and it went off. That was the one instance that I've seen a gun go off without a finger in the triggerguard. Afterward we slammed mags in repeatedly to see if the gun would accidently fire again. We were not able to repeat it. I was the RO and standing just behind and to the right of him, I saw his finger off the trigger. Some might call that a true "accidental discharge", but does it really matter?
The fact is there are people that never have motorcycle accidents either. There are people who go their whole lives without a negligent discharge. People who believe they will never have a negligent discharge or lay their bike are dangerous because they feel they are immune to mistakes, and are overly confident they know what they are doing. One of my shooting buddies had a ND about a 3 months ago. He also claimed that he would not have a ND because he's been around firearms since his childhood. He's been well trained, versed, blah blah bah in safty. Generally he is one of the safest people I now about everything. anyway he was practicing his weak hand only shooting. He limpwristed his gun and the gun went into slide lock. He went to overhand the slide and forgot to take his finger out of the trigger guard. When the slide went forward the momentum against his finger set it off. Looking back he realized the change of routine (shooting weak hand only) caused him to brain fart about the finger off the trigger routine. Like I said nobody is immune to mistakes. |
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Posted: 8/30/2003 11:29:32 AM EDT
[#10]
While never having an ND myself, I've seen them up close and personal. Sometimes that's the wakeup call it takes and that person becomes much more aware of their weapon handling.
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Posted: 8/30/2003 12:15:46 PM EDT
[#11]
I don't believe it. Sorry, but I have a very hard time believing that any modern gun fires without the trigger being pulled. Just does not happen except in "liberal land". In this case, even if it was a truly unadvoidable ND, it is inconsequencial because the muzzle was pointed downrange at a gun range.
That does not make sense at all. I see what you are trying to say, but it just doesn't make full circle. I have never had a ND, but that does not mean I don't pay good attention to saftey. I also do not believe I will ever have one, this does not mean I am overconfident. Guns do not "go off", treat them with the respect they deserve and everything is okay. I have never been in an automobile accident either, but this does not mean that I am recklessly driving around believing I am immune to an accident. I drive safer than most people. Period. It is a conscious effort on my part and I believe I will never be in an accident. I am not dangerous because I have never been in an accident, that is just stupid.
Let me cut out some of the bullshit: He racked the slide of his pistol with his finger on the trigger. The trigger was negligently pulled and the gun went off. Sounds safe to me. He broke the saftey rules plain and simple.Yar1182 - you sound like a dangerous shooter to me. How many ND's have you had? How many of them were mechanical faliures, or brain farts, or maybe just bad luck? |
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Posted: 8/30/2003 1:02:36 PM EDT
[#12]
What about slam fires caused by improperly seated primers? |
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Posted: 8/30/2003 1:15:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Actually I have not had a ND/AD. I think you are misreading/misinterpretting what I am saying. Just because you have not had a ND up to this point does not make you dangerous. It is thinking you will "never" have one that is the problem. Does it make you a public menace, no. Does it give you a false sense of security, possibly. I believe that most people who have a ND were of the thinking that they are safe. Yes following the basic rules of firearm safty will give some protection from a ND, but it is no guraentee. A firearm is like anything mechanical and can malfuntion. No they do not malfuntion to the level a gun grabbing liberal would have you believe, but it is statistical a reality.
Just because you have a ND/AD with the gun pointed downrange in a safe direction does not mean it was not a ND/AD. The fact that the gun went off when you did not intend it to makes it a ND. Also I think you missed the point about my fellow pistol competitior who had the left hand ND. Yes if you "Always" keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot you'll avoid 99.9% of ND's. It is easy to say I "always" follow this rule. The problem is that there is no such thing as always, never, blah blah blah. I shoot a lot of pistol matches. I see people run with fingers in the triggerguard, make mag changes with fingers in the triggerguard, clear malfuntions with triger in the trigerguard, etc. When your under stress, or otherwise your mind is occuppied you can make mistakes. It is safer to believe that you are capable of making mistakes than believeing you are not. That is what I'm saying. If you want to debate this more for the sake of debate that's fine. |
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Posted: 8/30/2003 1:21:32 PM EDT
[#14]
I agree with that 100%. I interpreted what you were saying as the safer than thou speech, that you are safer after you have had an ND. |
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Posted: 8/30/2003 1:23:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Never seen it happen, but I can see that causing an ND. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 5:42:49 AM EDT
[#16]
The closest I've come to a ND is when
www.mountaintop.org/death/unlucky-truck/page.html |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 5:46:22 AM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 9/2/2003 5:57:07 AM EDT
[#18]
I can think of a few. Careful, statements like this lead directly to the anti-freedom crowd's way of thinking. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 6:01:57 AM EDT
[#19]
This one is covered by one of the four basic rules to handling weapons. ALWAYS keep the muzzle of the weapon pointed in a safe direction. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 6:06:39 AM EDT
[#20]
I'd like to hear the few you can think of. Barring CCW. I'm referring to coming into your buddies home with a loaded gun and having a ND. Read my post again, this statement was not meant to be "snipped" out of context. This person who did this in my home WAS concealed carrying as well at the time of the ND. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 6:11:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Understood. Some may take CCW for granted; those of us living under an oppressive State gov't, cannot. Thank you for clairifying your point, BVM. No offense intended. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 6:53:06 AM EDT
[#22]
i've heard of it happening on an AK-47. i haven't actually seen the weapon in question but the story goes: during the sale of the AK the prospective buyer said,"what's this button do?" and pressed it. it appears it was some sort of manual cartridge advance, but the top of the reciever wasn't attached right, and gun slam fired and sent a round out the window and over the next apartment building. but it's still a ND for not checking the chamber first. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 7:25:46 AM EDT
[#23]
I saw an SKS go off when the bolt was released to chamber a round with no finger on the trigger and the safety engaged.
I am not mistaken about this and I am not lying. That shit DOES happen with some modern weapons. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 7:30:24 AM EDT
[#24]
None taken thank you. That's why I thought I should clarify before going off on a rant. 
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Posted: 9/2/2003 7:32:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Again this one falls under......... ALWAYS point the muzzle of the weapon in a safe direction. ND is one thing, someone being injured because of a ND is inexcuseable. |
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Posted: 9/2/2003 8:45:21 AM EDT
[#26]
True. Never say "never." There is always the possibility of a mechanical fault with the pistol, or an ammo problem, no matter how small. But, that's why nearly every reply says to keep it pointed in a safe direction. It's also why in a stress situation I like DAO over striker always, and even the single action semi-auto (from a safety standpoint).
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Posted: 9/2/2003 9:40:23 AM EDT
[#27]
I hardly think we can call a machanical fault a "negligent" discharge, can we?
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Posted: 9/2/2003 11:15:07 AM EDT
[#28]
That's right. It's why I don't automatically go into a discourse on how negligent someone is. My point is that it IS indeed possible to have an accidental discharge. Sure, most of the time it's because of a slipup, especially with the finger, but there are those times... Never say never.
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Posted: 9/2/2003 2:40:56 PM EDT
[#29]
That is one of the most stupid replies I have ever seen on any gun board. This country is full of unsafe guns that will fire if droped. There are thousands of junk guns such as Jennings, Davis and Bryco pistols out there that are simply not safe in any way. There are thousands of Remington and other centerfire rifles that are not safe as they should be. Even some so called good modern designs such as the Steyr M series pistols lack the proper internal safety systems that other designs have and that makes them unsafe. The average Glock, Beretta, Sig and so forth are about as safe as anything can be but there are many that are not. Accidents happen ALL THE TIME when junk or defective guns fire without a trigger pull. |
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Posted: 9/3/2003 6:23:04 AM EDT
[#30]
I had a AD with a paintball marker once. What a mess yellow goo all over the room. Amazing how those things splatter. That was before I got into real firearms.
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Posted: 9/4/2003 12:35:36 AM EDT
[#31]
I have a Jennings .22 and the f*ing thing only goes off occasionally when you do pull the 50# trigger, can't see it going off by itself. I know what you are saying, but even crap guns don't go off by themselves. Maybe I am just ignorant, but in a society where gun manufacturers can be sued out of existence when their products function as they should, producing one that goes off by itself and kills people is a sure way to pour money into a black hole. And lets be honest, people who have money to put into a business usually have more sense than to throw it away. |
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Posted: 9/4/2003 1:18:48 AM EDT
[#32]
Incorrect, Davis, Lorcin, Jennings and a whole bunch of other companies build guns at minimum cost, using cheap labor, cheap parts, and simple designs to mazimize profits. They also find cheap insurance. If the company gets sued the defense will be, unsafe use, poor maint., Duh guns are weapons, and similar. If they loose the suit the company declares bankruptcy, while the actual owners personal assets are protected. 6 months down the road they start another company........ |
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Posted: 9/4/2003 4:26:45 AM EDT
[#33]
Maximize profits on an $80 gun? Even if the whole damn gun is profit, and they sell 100,000 a year, all it takes is one $8 million judgement to wipe them out. And that is assuming that their lawyers are working for free.
The actual owners private assets may be protected, but he will lose any money that he had in the company. Machinery is not cheap, and starting any business, let alone a firearms manufacturing plant, is very expensive business. Edited to add: Bryco Arms/Jennings just lost a $50 million lawsuit because the gun was "unsafe", ie. fired when the trigger was pulled. Course the guys over at the Brady center agree that it just "went off": www.gunlawsuits.org/docket/casestatus.asp?RecordNo=80 |
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Posted: 9/4/2003 7:00:21 PM EDT
[#34]
You have a lot to learn about gun design. The weight of the trigger pull has nothing to do with a gun being drop safe. Some manaul safetys only keep an idiot from pulling the trigger. They do not prevent an AD. That is why good modern guns have manaul safteys that do more than block the trigger and have automatic internal safetys such as firing pin locks. You are a danger to yourself and society if you carry a Jennings or any other junk striker fried single action piece of shit with a round in the chamber. I personaly know of one moron who is in jail today because he "knew" his Davis .32 auto is safe and could not possibly fire without a trigger pull. It seems this idiot droped it in a K-Mart and when it hit the floor it fired and sent a JHP through the ankle of an elderly lady standing in the shampoo isle. They threw his dumb ass in jail because that is where people that stupid belong. The old lady almost lost her leg. Her sons are waiting on this nut to get out of jail so they can pay him a visit. This kind of thing happens all the time with junk guns and even with good quality guns with some type of defect or from someone playing gunsmith. |
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Posted: 9/4/2003 7:15:28 PM EDT
[#35]
Seems to me that the negligence would be in dropping a loaded weapon in the first place. What do I get for posting
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Posted: 9/4/2003 7:25:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Maybe grandmaster cornbread will tell me the secrets.
Well, no shit.
My junk gun Jennings .22 (yes it is a piece of junk) locks the firing pin when on safe BTW, and that is about as cheap as they come.
I wouldn't do it cause the safety doesn't seem too safe to me, but the gun doesn't just randomly go off. It hasn't yet at least, maybe I need one of those gun cams.
Link? The media eats these events up, they love 'em, so don't give me some shit about it being unreported and nobody knowing about it.
He is stupid because the gun failed? If it just "went off", the guy might be not have seen that coming. Just out of curiousity, what were the charges brought against him?
All the time my ass.
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Posted: 9/5/2003 10:29:17 AM EDT
[#37]
Negligence comes from carring ANY loaded weapon in public that is not safe. If this idiot has a decent pistol he would be free and the old lady would still be walking without a limp. Most people don't tend to drop their pistols in public but it has happened to a few of the best. The difference is that those with a little common sense and the ability to understand basic gun design would have a drop safe pistol instead of a dangerous POS. If he had known anything about gun design he would have kept the chamber empty on this POS or bought a safe gun. Those of you that don't know the difference is the reason accidents like this happen. Only an idiot would go in public armed with an unsafe weapon when there are other safe weapons he could carry. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 10:37:52 AM EDT
[#38]
The safety on the Jennings only blocks the cheap POS pot metal sear. This guy much like you is stupid because he carried an unsafe pistol with the chamber loaded. It "went off" because he is an idiot much like you that did not know any better and would not listen to someone that knew more about the subject. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 1:56:53 PM EDT
[#39]
thanks for turning what was a quality discussion about a very serious and potentially dangerous subject into third grade banter. if your trying to enlighten someone as to the error of their ways that ain't it. if your just trying to be an ass, call him a stupid head doodie monster. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 2:20:59 PM EDT
[#40]
So, again I ask what is so stupid about what I posted? Like I said before a gun never goes off by itself,this one is no different, it had some help from a NEGLIGENT owner. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 3:33:30 PM EDT
[#41]
I bought a J-22 when they first came out, for whatever reason...I think to replace a Sterling .22 that never worked...but anyway, it would go off most of the time just by chambering the 1st round.
So anytime after the first time it happened, I was warned...so it became a semi-intentional discharge ?  Sending the gun back to Jennings (yes, I went through the trouble), it finally got fixed, after weeks of hearing, "the gunsmiths not in". Going back a few years, one would/should never carry an older .25/.32 auto or a SA revolver with a round in the chamber or under the hammer. The same goes for the "cheapies" nowadays, it takes the dropping of the gun or bumping the hammer from "going off" out of the equation, at least. It will never happen to you, until it does. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 3:52:32 PM EDT
[#42]
1) Incorporate. 2) lease/rent all equipment. 3) Order raw materials, and/or semi finished components from ather companies. 4) Hire cheap labor. 5) Do the finish work on the cheap raw parts on the rented machines. 6) Assemble weapons. 7) Pay yourself ALL profits. 8) After 1-2 years disband company. 9) Start at step one, with a new corp. name. Guns can be made by a company with slip shod practices just like any other consumer product. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 7:15:04 PM EDT
[#43]
A negligent person could have droped a Glock, Beretta, Sig, Ruger or any number of good safe carry guns and the worst thing that could have happened was that he would have been possibly made a scratch on the finish. No one would have been hurt. It was ignorance that caused the accident and not the act of droping the pistol. Have you in your life never droped a gun? Have you never fell with a gun? If you carry a gun all the time sooner or later you will do this. It is up to YOU to know enough about YOUR pistol to know it's design well enough to know if it is drop safe. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 7:23:54 PM EDT
[#44]
How should you treat someone who knows even less than a third grader about the subject of firearms design? He don't even know how the safety of HIS OWN PISTOL works yet he "knows" it can't have an AD. It is people like him that carry such junk and wind up killing innocent people. |
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Posted: 9/5/2003 7:38:26 PM EDT
[#45]
An accidental discharge is when a firearm fires WITHOUT a trigger pull.
Older SA revolvers would fire from a blow to the hammer if the chamber under the hammer was loaded and still today some cheaper SA revolvers use this old design. Cheap junk such as Jennings, Davis, Lorcin and other junk single action pistols WITHOUT the modern internal safety systems found on more expensive models CAN and WILL have ADs. Mossberg recalled some of it's shotguns a few years ago because some of them would fire when you pushed the safety off. There was a South African pistol imported into the US a few years ago that was recalled because of AD's. There have been other recalls by other gun makers because their guns did or could possibly have AD's. Remington had to pay a lot of money to several people because of their centerfire rifles having AD's. A lot of centerfire hunting rifles are not as safe as they should be. While most gun accidents involve someone pulling the trigger some happen because of the gun itself. |
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Posted: 9/6/2003 12:15:33 PM EDT
[#46]
1st of all I already clarified that I don't carry the gun, or think it is that safe. I just don't think they go off by themselves. 2nd, it seems time for a fuck you cornbread. |
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Posted: 9/6/2003 8:50:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Your thoughts on the subject does not affect reality. Or do you have some mystic powers that can prevent such an accident? I am more inclined to belive that your POS Jennings is just as dangerous as the rest of them. |
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Posted: 9/7/2003 1:19:47 PM EDT
[#48]
Provide me with a single incident of one of these junk guns going off by themselves. ONE. Your kmart example does not fit that category because the idiot dropped it. Personally I have never dropped a gun, and seeing that a handgun is basically a handle with a barrel only an idiot could do so. Then comes the question of why the gun was even out of the holster in a public place in the first place, then why it wasn't on safe. You can blame the ND on the gun, the factory, the holster, whatever, but ultimately it came down to user error. It was the users fault the gun went off. Does it happen when a gun goes off completely by itself? Yes. But cars blow up by themselves too, just the fact that it can and does happen does not make it statistically relevant. At it certainly does not happen "all the time". |
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Posted: 9/7/2003 1:23:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Obviously I know what profit is and how it is obtained. The point is that guns are not a high profit buisness to begin with and when you are selling a gun that retails for $80 you are not going to be "maximizing profits" in any way. The difference between other consumer products and guns is volume. A gun manufacturer would be lucky to sell 10,000 guns. While a company that makes some other shoddy product, cd players whatever, can sell millions. |
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Posted: 9/7/2003 1:29:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Ya just HAD to go there, didn't ya?  Edited to add: Slamfire on very dirty AR. Make sure you keep the bolt clean, and muzzle downrange when chambering a round. |
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