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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/16/2005 5:03:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 8:29:46 AM EDT by TraumaLevel1]
I've always been a Sig guy but am looking to expand my collection and the only other thing Im interested in is the 1911. I dont like polymer guns so the Glocks and HK-USPs are out.

So far, its either going to be a Springfield or Para Ordnance.
Im considering the Para P14 because it takes 14 rds or the awesome 45ACP. The only thing that was preventing me from getting the 1911 is the low cap mags.

Anyway, I wanted to know what your oppinion on the Para ord, Springfield and the P14 specifically.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:18:59 PM EDT
Someone once told me if you can't say something polite, don't say anything at all...


[crickets chirping]



IMO there isn't a double stack 1911 style gun that is worth a damn.

damian@adcofirearms.com
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:41:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 7:42:05 PM EDT by DocGun]

Originally Posted By TraumaLevel1:
I've always been a Sig guy but am looking to expand my collection and the only other thing Im interested in is the 1911. I dont like polymer guns so the Glocks and HK-USPs are out.

So far, its either going to be a Springfield or Para Ordnance.
Im considering the Para P14 because it takes 14 rds or the awesome 45ACP. The only thing that was preventing me from getting the 1911 is the low cap mags.
Anyway, I wanted to know what your oppinion on the Para ord, Springfield and the P14 specifically.



Practice
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:07:51 PM EDT
I've owned both Springfields and Paras. The Paras were both Limited models, one in 40 and one in 45. They were each accurate as hell, tight and super reliable. Shelling out the money for the mags was never easy, nor were the mag pouches. Springfields have also been quality firearms. I have to admit, I like the thinner grip and cheap magazines of the single stack 1911. Mcormick magazines will never steer you wrong with a steel framed Springfield. I'd go with the Springfield. You'll still have your Sigs if you fell the need for high capacity. You'll save cash, anyway.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:50:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 2:55:28 AM EDT by racezilla500]

Originally Posted By dubb-1:
Someone once told me if you can't say something polite, don't say anything at all...


[crickets chirping]



IMO there isn't a double stack 1911 style gun that is worth a damn.

damian@adcofirearms.com



You took the words right out of my mouth. Double-stack is one of the ultimate sins in a 1911.

DocGun- You hit it too.....Practice, Practice, Practice.
I've got my own feelings about the high cap hype. Just research your one-shot-stop percentages for the .45. I'm quite confident I shouldn't need even one full seven or eight round mag. If 14 rounds crammed into a mag makes you feel safer, then carry on. But, it's a devilish deviation from the design.

Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:55:55 AM EDT
If you cant do it with 9 rounds of .45 a reload should be a slap in the face to start hitting your damned target.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:56:37 AM EDT
One of the best things about a 1911 is the grip, when you make it a double stack, you blow that all to hell.

With an 8 round mag and 1 in the pipe, that is 9 rounds of awesome 45 acp. If you need more than that you should be packing an M4.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:01:33 AM EDT
Where is my popcorn? This should be good.


Woody


Oh, and so no one says I'm just wasting bandwidth.... I'd start with the Springifeld as a base gun to do what you want to as far as customization after you have gotten comfortable with the design. Please note that the 1911 was designed to use a high thumb hold (on the safety), and when you get used to it, and it becomes second nature to you, when you pick up your Sig, you will do the same thing and find that suddenly it never locks open after the last round. That's just cuz you are riding your thumb up on the slide release.

At least that's what happened with me. And FWIW, you shouldn't discount the HKs. They are excellent firearms, and aren't butt-ugly like the Glock.

WW
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:01:35 AM EDT
One of the best things about a 1911 is the grip, when you make it a double stack, you blow that all to hell.

With an 8 round mag and 1 in the pipe, that is 9 rounds of awesome 45 acp. If you need more than that you should be packing an M4.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 7:18:02 AM EDT
I've had problems out of Para Ordnance 1911s (specifically my 5" PXT). Finish peeled off around the extractor tunnel, along the bottom edge of the slide, and under the grip panels. If field stripped, you could see numerous casting voids in the underside of the slide. Slide to frame fit was awesome, AT FIRST, then shot loose after 150rds of hardball. I sold it to buy a Kimber.

If I were in your shoes, I'd look at used pistols from reputable dealers (after doing some research) and stick to big names in the field, notably: Springfield, Kimber, Colt (hopefully the used price will be within your range).
BTW: The aforementioned names still apply if you've got the funds for a new pistol.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:58:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 5:08:40 PM EDT by TraumaLevel1]

Originally Posted By racezilla500:

Originally Posted By dubb-1:
Someone once told me if you can't say something polite, don't say anything at all...


[crickets chirping]



IMO there isn't a double stack 1911 style gun that is worth a damn.

damian@adcofirearms.com



You took the words right out of my mouth. Double-stack is one of the ultimate sins in a 1911.

DocGun- You hit it too.....Practice, Practice, Practice.
I've got my own feelings about the high cap hype. Just research your one-shot-stop percentages for the .45. I'm quite confident I shouldn't need even one full seven or eight round mag. If 14 rounds crammed into a mag makes you feel safer, then carry on. But, it's a devilish deviation from the design.




The reason for high cap isnt because I'm a bad shot. I have the Sig 226R in 40 cal with 12rd mags. My 40 cal JHPs are just as effective as a 45ACP rounds especially when I re-load them a litte hot. Also, I can usually out shoot the average police officer which I have done more than once.

I like the extra rounds because I want the ability to engage multiple targets with out reloading and for cover fire. I like the ability to keep someones head down can be important. Its similar to discussion of 223 vs 308.

As far as the para P14 Im asking your opinion. It doesnt seem like most approve of the high cap 1911s.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:15:44 PM EDT
If you're in the market for one, and you think you won't "soup it up" go with the SA mil-spec.
If you want the next step, go with a Kimber or SA Loaded.
Have 2 Kimbers, very happy with both.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:48:56 PM EDT
" Also, I can usually out shoot the average police officer which I have done more than once."

I would hope so. The average cop sucks, only shooting a few times a year. And even then, just shooting to qualify, not shooting to win the fight.

"I like the extra rounds because I want the ability to engage multiple targets with out reloading and for cover fire. "

Umm, its a pistol. You need to make hits fast and get to cover. Making hits fast, and shooting fast, are two different things entirely.

" I like the ability to keep someones head down can be important. Its similar to discussion of 223 vs 308."

Sorry, I'm not gonna touch that one.


Forgive me if I'm reading to far into this, but I get the feeling you have done very little research into 1911s and even less training with firearms. Take a deep breath and remember, "First things first".

damian@adcofirearms.com
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:13:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 8:15:29 PM EDT by MikeG23]

Originally Posted By dubb-1:
IMO there isn't a double stack 1911 style gun that is worth a damn.



I'm not a big 1911 guy, but I do like them.
Anyway my buddy had a Wilson Combat KZ-45 and a KZ-45 Compact, while I wasn't real thrilled with the compact, the KZ-45 was a nice gun.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 12:05:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:53:55 AM EDT


I like the extra rounds because I want the ability to engage multiple targets with out reloading and for cover fire. I like the ability to keep someones head down can be important. Its similar to discussion of 223 vs 308.





Sorry man, just stick with how JMB said it should be.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:03:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 3:03:51 AM EDT by Mr45auto]


If you need more you'll have to find a belt feed conversion
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:21:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
www.m1911.org/images/drum2.jpg

If you need more you'll have to find a belt feed conversion



Thanks Mr45auto... I just saved that photo. It's on my "to be photoshopped when I get the time" list.


Also, TraumaLevel1...

Forget that Canuck 14 rounder... get a single stack Springfield, Colt or Kimber. They are all of such high quality that you'll never exceed their limitations.

And, for the record, just to back up what others have already said... You don't lay down suppression fire with pistols.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:23:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:29:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 3:29:52 AM EDT by TraumaLevel1]
Forgive me if I'm reading to far into this, but I get the feeling you have done very little research into 1911s and even less training with firearms. Take a deep breath and remember, "First things first".

damian@adcofirearms.com


Your right about the 1911s and training - thats why Im asking. I would love to get more training but unfortunately dont have the time. My job requires 100+ hours of training per week.

Also, you maybe better at putting the bullets in someone but I'll bet you I'm better at getting them out.


I guess I'll stick with the Sig for now until I get more information and experience with the 1911s.

Thanks for the info.
TL1
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:50:57 AM EDT
KIMBER

hug.gifmark
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:48:53 PM EDT
What about S&W? I checked out the Kimber Warrior and it looked like it was spray painted with a can of Krylon. I have also read the "finish" doesn't last. In addition, it weighed in the large brick category. (It is selling like hotcakes though...) As far as S&W, The scandium .357 I have is great. S&W haven't been perfect in my experience, but the customer service is 2nd to none in my book. What do 1911 folks think of S&W?

Aside: As far as being better at removal, unless you are a mortician a la the Godfather, a 230 grain Hydra-shok won't leave much room for heroics.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:51:49 PM EDT
I've got both a single stack and a high capacity full size 1911. The single stack is a 'ball' gun, meaning a pistol that looks exactly like a military issue 1911 and is accurized for target shooting. The high cap is a stock Para P-14. The difference is size is one mm in total grip width thanks to the low profile grips on the Para, although the Para grip is larger all the way around intead of tapering off where the grips end. The difference in weight is substantial due to the Para's steel frame and 14 rounds of ammo. The upside to the extra weight is the Para dosen't jump nearly as much during recoil. The biggest benifit with a .45 is even low cap magazines can hold eight rounds of 230 gr 'seditave'. In comparison my Browning Hi Power holds 17 rounds and still dosen't match the total 'throw weight' of an eight round 1911 magazine. IMHO, if eight rounds is good, fourteen is better.


Originally Posted By TraumaLevel1:
Im considering the Para P14 because it takes 14 rds or the awesome 45ACP. The only thing that was preventing me from getting the 1911 is the low cap mags.

Anyway, I wanted to know what your oppinion on the Para ord, Springfield and the P14 specifically.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:13:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:14:49 PM EDT by DocGun]
With a "good/reliable" single stack 1911 with one round chambered, cocked & locked and an 8 round Wilson 47D magazine you've got 9 rounds of .45ACP at your disposal. Add a single or double mag carrier to your belt and you've got up to 16 more rounds. In any "gunfight" your're likely to encounter your adversary or adversaries will probably be less than ten yards away. With even a moderate amount of repeat practice you should/will be able to place center mass and head shots on multiple standard silhouette targets quickly and easily. Granted it is more difficult with a moving target, but you'd be surprised at how good you can become in a hurry at 10 yards. I would much rather face an average shooter with a high capacity magazine than I would a practiced one with a single stack.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:40:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 2:46:40 PM EDT by JMag]

Originally Posted By DocGun:
I would much rather face an average shooter with a high capacity magazine than I would a practiced one with a single stack.



Hmm, what about the practiced dude with the high cap mag???h
That said, it won't likely change the minds of the die-hard 1911 stalwart.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:57:01 PM EDT
I am awful happy with my Springfield GI model. Simple, Cheap, Reliable, and it always goes bang.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:10:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 7:11:17 PM EDT by racezilla500]

Originally Posted By JMag:
That said, it won't likely change the minds of the die-hard 1911 stalwart.



Don't forget that the double stack is harder to conceal.

Oh, by the way, you're right.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:15:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By racezilla500:

Originally Posted By JMag:
That said, it won't likely change the minds of the die-hard 1911 stalwart.hr


Don't forget that the double stack is harder to conceal.

Oh, by the way, you're right.



Depends on how big a boy you are...
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:44:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 7:45:39 PM EDT by 45bisley]
I use the Mil-Spec Springer. Replaced all the Mim Parts. I use the standard 7 rounder mags with the dimple followers with wolff springs. I the last two weeks 1000 round no hang ups. No fancy beavertails, or 3 1/2# trigger job. only thing extra I goin to do is some night sights. 1911 doesn't have to be fancy to get the job done. Most of my guns are for Utilitarian use. This the same mind set when I build ARs, simple but fuctional.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:18:14 AM EDT
Love my para Colonel hi cap but it shot high out of box.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:03:00 AM EDT
I am not saying this because I think Paras are bad however I would go with the SA with a steel frame and probably go with a mil-spec in stainless. I like 1911s that take the standard 1911 parts.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:24:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:
I am not saying this because I think Paras are bad however I would go with the SA with a steel frame and probably go with a mil-spec in stainless. I like 1911s that take the standard 1911 parts.



For some reason I always hear guys having trouble with stainless guns. I've had some break in issues with a Colt in stainless where my regular steel guns were all 100% out of the box.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:51:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JMag:

Originally Posted By DocGun:
I would much rather face an average shooter with a high capacity magazine than I would a practiced one with a single stack.



Hmm, what about the practiced dude with the high cap mag???



The "dude with the high cap mag" is irrelevant. If he's practiced, he won't need "high cap".


IMO the double stack 1911 is a waste. If you want a high cap .45 get a G21 or USP. If you want a 1911 get a 1911, not some bastardized pistol that destroys one of the best attributes of the design.


R
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 2:54:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 2:55:40 PM EDT by JMag]

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By JMag:

Originally Posted By DocGun:
I would much rather face an average shooter with a high capacity magazine than I would a practiced one with a single stack.



Hmm, what about the practiced dude with the high cap mag???hr


The "dude with the high cap mag" is irrelevant. If he's practiced, he won't need "high cap".


IMO the double stack 1911 is a waste. If you want a high cap .45 get a G21 or USP. If you want a 1911 get a 1911, not some bastardized pistol that destroys one of the best attributes of the design.


R



Hmm, the "dude with the hi cap mag" is irrelevant, eh? You know, what is relevant is it really doesn't matter how many rounds you carry in your gun as long as you know how to use them.

Second, a hi cap 1911 is just that, not a bastardized pistol that destroys anything...it does nothing but offer something more for those so inclined to partake.

BTW, the 1911 single-stack was designed in an era when the average man was about the size of the average woman these days. The men-folk are bigger these days and many have large hands. The double-stack, if TRIED, could prove to be a better fit for many that have the courage to remove their blinders and venture outside their comfort zone.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:16:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JMag:

Hmm, the "dude with the hi cap mag" is irrelevant, eh? You know, what is relevant is it really doesn't matter how many rounds you carry in your gun as long as you know how to use them.



Exactly. You just reinforced my statement.


Second, a hi cap 1911 is just that, not a bastardized pistol that destroys anything...it does nothing but offer something more for those so inclined to partake.


It effects the original grip dimensions, so yes, it does destroy a certain amount of ergonomics.


BTW, the 1911 single-stack was designed in an era when the average man was about the size of the average woman these days. The men-folk are bigger these days and many have large hands. The double-stack, if TRIED, could prove to be a better fit for many that have the courage to remove their blinders and venture outside their comfort zone.


Here we go with the 1911-snobbery-all-1911-owners-fear-change type comments. Look, I've TRIED Paras, and own Glocks and HKs. I've yet to meet anyone who says a double stack 1911 actually fits them better than a single stack. Yes, it does offer higher mag capacity, but at a price.


R
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:37:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By JMag:

Hmm, the "dude with the hi cap mag" is irrelevant, eh? You know, what is relevant is it really doesn't matter how many rounds you carry in your gun as long as you know how to use them.



Exactly. You just reinforced my statement.


Second, a hi cap 1911 is just that, not a bastardized pistol that destroys anything...it does nothing but offer something more for those so inclined to partake.


It effects the original grip dimensions, so yes, it does destroy a certain amount of ergonomics.


BTW, the 1911 single-stack was designed in an era when the average man was about the size of the average woman these days. The men-folk are bigger these days and many have large hands. The double-stack, if TRIED, could prove to be a better fit for many that have the courage to remove their blinders and venture outside their comfort zone.


Herefits
them better than a single stack. Yes, it does offer higher mag capacity, but at a price.


R


I made my first comment with a wink; no big deal. Shoot what you like and what you shoot well. I like Paras and double-stacks (I like Mr. Browning's last great design, the double-stack Hi-Power, too).

My double-stack Para fits my hand better than any single-stack 1911. That's me, I'm one. I suspect Todd Jarrett, among many others, would concur.

It's all in the details; to each his own.

BTW, I do own a single-stack 1911 and like it just fine. It's a big and heavy gun and I feel seven or eight rounds in the mag was somewhat of a design compromise at the time, if you will. Maybe John M. Browning figured that one out with the HP, too. Para, more recently, figured it out, as well.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:02:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JMag:

BTW, the 1911 single-stack was designed in an era when the average man was about the size of the average woman these days.



And this is why I think that the 1911 is the perfect women's gun. All of my beginner ladies love it when they finally get to shoot the 1911 - it fits.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:10:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JMag:

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By JMag:

Hmm, the "dude with the hi cap mag" is irrelevant, eh? You know, what is relevant is it really doesn't matter how many rounds you carry in your gun as long as you know how to use them.



Exactly. You just reinforced my statement.


Second, a hi cap 1911 is just that, not a bastardized pistol that destroys anything...it does nothing but offer something more for those so inclined to partake.


It effects the original grip dimensions, so yes, it does destroy a certain amount of ergonomics.


BTW, the 1911 single-stack was designed in an era when the average man was about the size of the average woman these days. The men-folk are bigger these days and many have large hands. The double-stack, if TRIED, could prove to be a better fit for many that have the courage to remove their blinders and venture outside their comfort zone.


Here we go with the 1911-snobbery-all-1911-owners-fear-change type comments. Look, I've TRIED Paras, and own Glocks and HKs. I've yet to meet anyone who says a double stack 1911 actually fits them better than a single stack. Yes, it does offer higher mag capacity, but at a price.


R



I made my first comment with a wink; no big deal. Shoot what you like and what you shoot well. I like Paras and double-stacks (I like Mr. Browning's last great design, the double-stack Hi-Power, too).

My double-stack Para fits my hand better than any single-stack 1911. That's me, I'm one. I suspect Todd Jarrett, among many others, would concur.

It's all in the details; to each his own.

BTW, I do own a single-stack 1911 and like it just fine. It's a big and heavy gun and I feel seven or eight rounds in the mag was somewhat of a design compromise at the time, if you will. Maybe John M. Browning figured that one out with the HP, too. Para, more recently, figured it out, as well.




I too, am a big fan of the P35 (see the "Gunner Grips for the BHP" thread), and I feel that it's still probably the best double stack (ergonomically).

If the double stack .45 fits you, great. But I wouldn't necessarily use shooting "celebrities" as a litmus test of a firearm's quality. I would be willing to bet that if Para stopped giving Todd Jarrett money, that he wouldn't still be shooting one. Just as I bet that if Para started gaving Rob Leatham money, he'd start shooting one.



R
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:38:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:
I am not saying this because I think Paras are bad however I would go with the SA with a steel frame and probably go with a mil-spec in stainless. I like 1911s that take the standard 1911 parts.



For some reason I always hear guys having trouble with stainless guns. I've had some break in issues with a Colt in stainless where my regular steel guns were all 100% out of the box.



Then get a blued or parked or gun coateted version.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:17:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By JMag:

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By JMag:

Hmm, the "dude with the hi cap mag" is irrelevant, eh? You know, what is relevant is it really doesn't matter how many rounds you carry in your gun as long as you know how to use them.



Exactly. You just reinforced my statement.


Second, a hi cap 1911 is just that, not a bastardized pistol that destroys anything...it does nothing but offer something more for those so inclined to partake.


It effects the original grip dimensions, so yes, it does destroy a certain amount of ergonomics.


BTW, the 1911 single-stack was designed in an era when the average man was about the size of the average woman these days. The men-folk are bigger these days and many have large hands. The double-stack, if TRIED, could prove to be a better fit for many that have the courage to remove their blinders and venture outside their comfort zone.


Herefits
them better than a single stack. Yes, it does offer higher mag capacity, but at a price.


R


I made my first comment with a wink; no big deal. Shoot what you like and what you shoot well. I like Paras and double-stacks (I like Mr. Browning's last great design, the double-stack Hi-Power, too).

My double-stack Para fits my hand better than any single-stack 1911. That's me, I'm one. I suspect Todd Jarrett, among many others, would concur.

It's all in the details; to each his own.

BTW, I do own a single-stack 1911 and like it just fine. It's a big and heavy gun and I feel seven or eight rounds in the mag was somewhat of a design compromise at the time, if you will. Maybe John M. Browning figured that one out with the HP, too. Para, more recently, figured it out, as well.




I too, am a big fan of the P35 (see the "Gunner Grips for the BHP" thread), and I feel that it's still probably the best double stack (ergonomically).

If the double stack .45 fits you, great. But I wouldn't necessarily use shooting "celebrities" as a litmus test of a firearm's quality. I would be willing to bet that if Para stopped giving Todd Jarrett money, that he wouldn't still be shooting one. Just as I bet that if Para started gaving Rob Leatham money, he'd start shooting one. hr


Oh, now here we go with the requisite "they're paying so-and-so, that's why he uses it" gig. I'm kidding; you might be right. We may never know.

You think muscle memory might dissuade either of them?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:24:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 12:28:34 AM EDT by Mr45auto]

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:
I am not saying this because I think Paras are bad however I would go with the SA with a steel frame and probably go with a mil-spec in stainless. I like 1911s that take the standard 1911 parts.



For some reason I always hear guys having trouble with stainless guns. I've had some break in issues with a Colt in stainless where my regular steel guns were all 100% out of the box.



Then get a blued or parked or gun coateted version.




That's why I got both!


Make that all 3. Coated, parked, and stainless!
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:20:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:
I am not saying this because I think Paras are bad however I would go with the SA with a steel frame and probably go with a mil-spec in stainless. I like 1911s that take the standard 1911 parts.



For some reason I always hear guys having trouble with stainless guns. I've had some break in issues with a Colt in stainless where my regular steel guns were all 100% out of the box.



Then get a blued or parked or gun coateted version.




That's why I got both!



+1 on that.
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