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Posted: 6/7/2011 8:10:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2011 8:11:27 AM EDT by JackAR15Bauer]
I throw this out here just to give you some food for thought.  We hear on this forum all the time about shot placement, how "if I cant take him down in 2 shots, I deserve to die" and all that crap, but the fact of the matter is this: you dont know HOW MANY shots you'll need, so why in heaven's name do some of you think 8, or whatever, is enough?  not trying to start any fights, just something to think about and i thought it was well presented here.  I counted about 12 shots, but there were times when he didnt say how many times he shot from a specific position....  

CQC multiple assailants

again, not trying to start a war, but I guess its one of the reasons I chose to find high capacity when I was searching for my new HG.    

beware the "fat guys" !


later!
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 8:23:03 AM EDT
8 shots may be enough; but 16 shots in the gun is even better.

I'll choose "even better" over "enough" every day.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 8:37:10 AM EDT
There are always going to be situations where your choice in arms is insufficient. Just look at the mob robbery that happened not too long ago here in Las Vegas. 22 criminals robbing a store at once. Even if you could carry enough ammo to protect yourself against that many people every day you are going to get overrun before you get through them all. Carrying something, anything, is going to give you an option and advantage that you wouldn't have if you weren't carrying. Making concessions for concealability is a requirement for most of us. Where you draw the line is up to you. IIRC my CCW instructor stated that most armed conflicts are over in less than 3 rounds. Of course he also strongly encouraged to carry something more than just my J frame.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 8:58:05 AM EDT
I took a handgun class a few years ago that was being instructed by a friend of mine that is a federal LEO.  The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics.  The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17.  The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 9:10:17 AM EDT
Those 33 round Glock mags are looking pretty good.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 9:37:55 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Bradd_D:




The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics.  The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17.


That doesn't seem right.





 
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 9:44:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKREAPER:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics.  The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17.

That doesn't seem right.

 


It's probably 17 rounds for everybody in the fight, but multiple assailant crime is pretty common here.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 9:48:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKREAPER:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics.  The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17.

That doesn't seem right.

 


No, it doesn't.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 9:57:03 AM EDT
Yes. You shoot until the threat is not a threat.

One? Six? How many will it take?

Once I am on you with my front sight, I'm staying on you until you have a reaction to my bullet impacts....
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 10:01:21 AM EDT
We ALL draw the line somewhere.

Why just one gun?  Why not have 2?  One per side, let's say, so that whichever arm gets involved in a grapple you still have a draw option.

Why semi-auto?  In the OP's example he had to deal with a grappler pushing the slide out of battery.  How many of you practice dealing with that?  With a revolver, you can put the muzzle into fat-ass' gut and pull the trigger.

So long as you draw the line somewhere on the positive side of "armed" and are proficient you'll do a whole lot better than most.

And yes, I have regularly carried a high capacity handgun before (Para P-14/45).  But I feel pretty confident with a pair of 7-shot .357 Magnums on my belt.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 10:26:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Morne:
We ALL draw the line somewhere.

Why just one gun?  Why not have 2?  One per side, let's say, so that whichever arm gets involved in a grapple you still have a draw option.

Why semi-auto?  In the OP's example he had to deal with a grappler pushing the slide out of battery.  How many of you practice dealing with that?  With a revolver, you can put the muzzle into fat-ass' gut and pull the trigger.

So long as you draw the line somewhere on the positive side of "armed" and are proficient you'll do a whole lot better than most.

And yes, I have regularly carried a high capacity handgun before (Para P-14/45).  But I feel pretty confident with a pair of 7-shot .357 Magnums on my belt.


So long as the BG doesn't grab the cylinder or put his thumb in between the hammer and frame, or trigger and trigger guard.
Weapons all have ways of defeat. It's important to learn good tactics with what ever you are carrying.
Expect the unexpected.
Dave N

Link Posted: 6/7/2011 10:33:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2011 10:34:31 AM EDT by SD307]
This thread ignores human Psychology

People avoid gunfire and the armed and pissed.

Like the mob of 22 mentioned earlier .  How many would actually charge an armed clerk? The answer is almost none two or three tops.  Once rounds are fired a crowded place gets empty real quick.  In a small space like the OPs bathroom many assialnts will hit the floor covering thier ears after the first shot. Lets not forget that if you are in a tight space so is the enemy and you both do not have enough room to menuver so speed is the winner like in any gunfight no matter the range.

Link Posted: 6/7/2011 12:03:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By America-first:
8 shots may be enough; but 16 shots in the gun is even better.

I'll choose "even better" over "enough" every day.


I agree. I like to have as much oppurtunity as I can to strike something vital.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 12:34:26 PM EDT
8 +1 is what my gun holds, that's the reason for carrying an additional two magazines, I like 25 as a nice round number.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 4:15:14 PM EDT
I look at it this way:  if I can't "solve the problem" with 15 rounds... I'll be damn glad I've got 17 more to put in the gun.    

(G19 with G17 spare mag)
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 4:37:52 PM EDT
I dunno. I'm a pretty bad shot. 8 wouldn't be nearly enough. Probably need 30 or 40

Three 15 round mags would do the trick (one in the gun, two on the belt)
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 5:00:07 PM EDT
Old tired argument.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 5:15:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 50-140:
8 +1 is what my gun holds, that's the reason for carrying an additional two magazines, I like 25 as a nice round number.


61 rounds is even better.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 5:32:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 50-140:
8 +1 is what my gun holds, that's the reason for carrying an additional two magazines, I like 25 as a nice round number.


I'm with you. I carry a 1911 too with 8+1 rounds and a spare mag at most two spares. I shoot this pistol the best of all my other pistols. Its reliable, comfortable to carry, concealable, and I'm damn good with it so its what I carry.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 5:42:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2011 5:44:32 PM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 5:45:21 PM EDT
8 shots of tequila is enough to get started
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 6:01:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2011 6:12:01 PM EDT by burnpowder]
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun.  im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing.  it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun.  big whoop.  hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.

so i ask.  why buy a gun you know your going to have to hit a suspect with multiple times to inflict the same damage as a larger caliber?  defeats the point of having more bullets if you ask me.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 6:12:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By burnpowder:
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun.  im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing.  it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun.  big whoop.  hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.


Yeah, I've shot my buddy in the face with airsoft and he didn't die either... (yes it was force on force with eyepro)...
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 6:30:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2011 6:33:36 PM EDT by IndianaGeologist]
For me 7 shots is what I carry. Is it enough? How the hell could anyone know that? Is it enough to give me piece of mind and the abilitiy to ATTEMPT to stop a life threatening attack? Absolutely. Basically it comes down to what are you comfortable with? Do you live in an area where you don't feel secure unless you have a 16 rnd mag? Or do you live in an area, where a 5 shot revolver will suffice? Picking a round count to carry and what is enough is exactly the same as which gun fits you best. There is no right or wrong answer, its just whatever you feel comfortable with.

For me, I don't like carrying the weight of a 16 rnd mag, nor do I like the extra weight of spare mags. So for me I carry 7, and I am sure that will get me through most altercations (or at least that is what I hope) and my day to day business. Besides youre more likely to get in a car accident than a gun fight, so do you wear a helmet and kevlar when driving, or do you stick with the minimal two point seatbelt? Point being you have no idea what is coming your way, and it is up to you to asses the probability of what lies ahead and what you are willing to do.

Cheers.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 6:35:37 PM EDT
Reading the PDF, head shots were possible. Should have taken then after the first hits failed.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 7:05:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2011 7:06:52 PM EDT by Screwball]
Originally Posted By Sinnerman_:
Reading the PDF, head shots were possible. Should have taken then after the first hits failed.


One time I was watching a shootout live on CNN, and it went on so long that eventually the criminal shot himself. And the cops are complaining by saying, 'He's got on body armor, he's got on body armor.' And I thinking, 'I can see his head. Shoot him in the f***in' head.'

-Ron White
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 7:08:41 PM EDT
I carry 10 + 1 and a spare 10 round mag. If there are multiple assailants hopefully it's enough for me to lay down some fire and get away.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 7:22:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By burnpowder:
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun.  im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing.  it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun.  big whoop.  hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.

so i ask.  why buy a gun you know your going to have to hit a suspect with multiple times to inflict the same damage as a larger caliber?  defeats the point of having more bullets if you ask me.


Dude, if you think you don't have to (probably) shoot someone multiple times with a .40 or .45 just like you (probably) would with a 9mm, I have some bad news for you.  

Nothing wrong with carrying a .40 or .45 and you can carry as many rounds as you see fit.  It's your life, not mine, you're protecting so I don't have a stake in it.  However, I'd strongly recommend carrying a spare mag.  It's easy and it covers the absolute most likely mechanical failure your weapon can have.  Plus it gives you an extra 10rds in the event that the bad guy(s) don't fall before you like you've imagined they will.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 8:13:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2011 8:17:59 PM EDT by burnpowder]
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Originally Posted By burnpowder:
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun.  im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing.  it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun.  big whoop.  hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.

so i ask.  why buy a gun you know your going to have to hit a suspect with multiple times to inflict the same damage as a larger caliber?  defeats the point of having more bullets if you ask me.


Dude, if you think you don't have to (probably) shoot someone multiple times with a .40 or .45 just like you (probably) would with a 9mm, I have some bad news for you.  

Nothing wrong with carrying a .40 or .45 and you can carry as many rounds as you see fit.  It's your life, not mine, you're protecting so I don't have a stake in it.  However, I'd strongly recommend carrying a spare mag.  It's easy and it covers the absolute most likely mechanical failure your weapon can have.  Plus it gives you an extra 10rds in the event that the bad guy(s) don't fall before you like you've imagined they will.


i do carry a spare mag.  the whole point of this was the op feeling guys with 1911s carrying 8 rounds in the gun was inadequate.  when im carrying my g27 i carry a g22 mag on my belt (15 rounds).  when im carrying my XD40sc i carry the fullsize XD mag on my belt (12 rounds).  i do occasionally go places where i carry 2 spare mags.  when im traveling out of state i carry 4 mags with me just incase i lose some or one breaks or something.  i was simply stating i dont feel the need to downgrade to a 9mm just to have larger mag capacity in my gun which is what i interperet the basis for this thread.  based on actual self defense shootings, you arent likely to need a spare mag...but i would never not carry one.

i dont think 1 round from a 40/45 is guaranteed to end a fight.  but if i only had enough time to get 1 round off while 2 guys were ontop of me, i want that round to cause as much damage as humanly possible.  you can look through countless police reports and coroner examinations, the guys that require multiple shots to go down are GENERALLY shot by 9s.  the FBI has deemed the .40 as the minimum pistol cartridge to reliably stop someone in 1 hit.  especially being a gut shot like shown in that picture, there are no guarantees with any round though.  you pop a .45 through big boys gut even if he does get up hes not going to be fighting very hard.  and if you cant kill them in one shot, the best thing you can hope for is you have severely crippled their fighting abilities.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 8:53:10 PM EDT
The Peter Soulis Incident

* Brian McKenna
* Law Officer Volume 4 Issue 12
* 2008 Dec 23

Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off. The driver drove to a spot directly in Soulis' line of sight, turned the Toyota toward the street and stopped. Ignoring Soulis, he sat eyes straight ahead, focused on the small strip mall across the street. It was almost midnight, and the only business still open in the mall was a sandwich shop.

Soulis decided to investigate. The lot was dimly lit, so he left his headlights off as he pulled forward and stopped behind the Toyota. After angling his car to the left for cover, he logged out on his MDT, grabbed his heavy-duty flashlight, and stepped out into the cool night air. The driver never took his eyes off the strip mall.

Soulis, a safety-conscious, 38-year-old officer with 11 years on the job, worked for a large metropolitan police department in a city with more than its share of violent crime, but the driver didn't look like a trouble-maker and appeared only to be drunk. Still, Soulis knew better than to take anything for granted. Waiting to turn the flashlight on until he got closer, he cautiously moved to a spot about 10 feet behind the Toyota.

Suddenly, the driver lunged to his right and down. Without conscious thought, Soulis drew his gun—a .40 caliber Glock 22—as he moved to his left and shined the light into the car. "Show me your hands!" he shouted.

Slowly and without looking at Soulis, the driver sat up and raised his hands. He didn't say a word as he kept his eyes riveted straight ahead.

At Soulis' command, the man slowly exited the car with both hands in full view. Soulis was now standing well off to the left of the Toyota with his flashlight aimed into its front seat. Glancing past the driver, he spotted a beer lying on its side on the floorboard, its contents foaming out onto the carpet. He relaxed a little at the sight of the open beer, but kept his guard up.

Soulis kept his light on the driver as he reholstered and ordered him to come to him. Obediently, the driver stepped forward and handed Soulis his driver's license. After frisking the man for weapons and finding none, Soulis checked the license and identified the driver as Tim Palmer, a 27-year-old from a small town located many miles from there.

"What are you doing on this lot?" Soulis asked.

Palmer started fidgeting as he replied that he was waiting for some friends and had stopped to use the station's pay phone. Soulis knew that was a lie. Palmer had never gone near the pay phone.

He decided to run him for warrants but suspected he might take off on foot. After ordering Palmer to return to his car, he walked backwards to his cruiser, sat down, and tried to run him on his MDT. But NCIC was down, so there wasn't much he could do. He decided to ask for permission to search the Toyota and take it from there.

In the meantime, he noticed Palmer was nervously glancing around in every direction as he sat waiting in the Toyota. Although not particularly alarmed, Soulis didn't like what he saw. Becoming increasingly convinced that Palmer intended to run, he lit up the car with his spotlight, headlights and takedown lights.

At first, Palmer turned away from the blazing light, but then he adjusted his inside mirror and fixed his eyes on Soulis. Now even more distrustful of Palmer, Soulis opened his door to start his approach, only to see Palmer's door also swinging open. Moving quickly to make contact before Palmer could run, Soulis stepped out of his car and started forward.

He'd gone barely 10 feet when the alarm bells went off. No fear or panic, but his senses were crying out for greater caution, and he changed his approach. He circled around the back of his cruiser and moved up to the passenger side of the Toyota.

As he stopped alongside the car's right-rear fender and looked inside, every instinct told him Palmer was armed and waiting for him. The man was sitting behind the wheel, hunched forward with both feet firmly planted on the floorboard, his eyes glued to the mirror and his right hand thrust between his legs. His left arm was locked straight down along his left side, pressed down onto the floor next to the open driver's door as he readied himself to spring into action.

Soulis' first thought was to go back to his car and call Palmer out, but he would have to retreat across open ground to do that. Confident his position gave him a solid tactical advantage, he drew his gun as he shouted, "Show me your hands, and get outta the car!"

Soulis had planned to shoot through the back window if Palmer drew a weapon, but for reasons he still doesn't fully understand, he moved forward and to his right, stopping alongside the passenger door, not more than two feet from the window. Instantly, he realized he'd made a grievous blunder. Grinning with blood lust, Palmer lunged across the seat and shoved a Smith & Wesson Sigma up into firing position. Before Soulis could react, the S&W barked flame, driving a 9mm solidly into the center of his chest. The impact knocked Soulis back slightly, but his vest stopped the bullet.

Palmer was out of the Toyota a split-second later, firing the gun at him over the roof. There was no other cover nearby, so Soulis went down onto one knee behind the front fender to put the Toyota between them. But, at the same instant, two rounds crashed through his left arm, one just above the wrist and the other dead center on the forearm. Another struck him in the left thigh, although he wouldn't become aware of it until later.

Soulis was shooting back now, pumping rounds through the windshield into his assailant. Palmer went down immediately, and Soulis used the opportunity to seek better cover. The only decent cover nearby was his patrol car, so he started backpedaling in that direction, Glock at the ready and eyes scanning for Palmer's return as he moved. Then, spotting the cruiser out of the corner of one eye, he turned and started to sprint toward it. He had barely completed the turn when Palmer opened fire again. One round missed, but another tore through his left shoulder and exited his left bicep. He kept moving until he reached the back of the car, where he dropped to one knee and got back into the fight.

Palmer was scurrying back and forth down the driver's side of the Toyota, shrieking with rage and stopping sporadically to fire, but Soulis was more patient. He held his fire, waited for Palmer's head to pop into view, and then took a shot each time it appeared. Although Soulis knew he was getting hits, Palmer seemed impervious to his gunfire.

Soulis was also becoming apprehensive about his wounds. The bullet hole in his left wrist was an ugly, swollen mess that made him wonder if he would have enough dexterity to reload, and the one in his thigh was spewing blood all over the back of his cruiser. Believing his femoral artery had been hit, he pressed his left hand down over the wound, but that only caused the blood to shoot out another, previously unseen bullet hole. He feared he would bleed out before he could stop Palmer.

Soulis also heard a woman screaming across the street, leading him to believe he may have hit a bystander. He later learned she'd only been screaming in fear, but at the time he could only think of having hurt one of his citizens, and the idea angered him. It also had an unexpected effect—it made him focus on the importance of stopping Palmer before someone else got hurt.

With these thoughts came an unexpected calm, followed by a new resolve. Up to this point, he'd been fighting a commendable, though primarily defensive battle. But now, infused with the realization that Palmer had to be stopped and that only he could do it, he went on the offensive. Now the predator, he resolved that Palmer would never leave the parking lot, even if he had to take more hits to stop him.

Soulis' gun wasn't empty yet, but he knew better than to take the offensive without reloading. As he ejected the partially empty magazine and slapped in a fresh one, he saw something he hadn't expected. Apparently, Palmer had seen the ejected magazine hit the ground and assumed Soulis had either collapsed or run out of ammo. He left the cover of the Toyota, and advanced toward Soulis. Unaware that he was approaching a conscious and fully armed police officer who knew how to capitalize on an opportunity like this, Palmer walked toward the cruiser. Soulis waited patiently, tracking the man's approach by watching his feet under the cruiser.

Palmer hesitated when he reached the cruiser's right-front fender, as if to consider moving over to the driver's side. Soulis knew he'd have trouble tracking Palmer if he came around that way, so he decided to make his move without delay. He lunged out from behind the car, thrust the Glock up into firing position, and opened fire. His first two rounds hit Palmer center chest, rocking him back on his heels. Palmer flinched as two more rounds hit center mass, and then started backpedaling toward the Toyota. He was still holding his gun, but never raised it to fire.

After reaching the car, Palmer dove over the trunk and dropped out of sight. Soulis paused, and then cautiously started forward again. As he moved closer, he spotted Palmer crawling up into the Toyota's front seat and starting the engine.

Soulis stopped and fired two rounds through the back window. The first missed, but the second hit Palmer in the upper back, driving his head forward into the steering wheel. That seemed to have done the trick, but then Palmer sat up again, dropped the transmission into reverse, and started backing up. With no time to ponder how Palmer had absorbed so many hits, Soulis took aim and emptied the magazine into his assailant.

Palmer rolled over to his right and dropped the gear shift lever into drive, causing the car to lunge forward into a chainlink fence a few feet away, where it came to a stop. After watching Palmer long enough to make sure he didn't get up again, Soulis called for backup and waited for help to arrive.

The Aftermath
Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs—considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

Soulis made a full recovery and returned to work less than a month later. He has since retired, and now works for a national railroad as its principle special agent for counterterrorism. He also serves as an adjunct instructor for KFD Training & Consultation and Policecombat.com, which provide cutting edge training for police officers in advanced close quarters combative tactics and officer survival skills.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 9:05:27 PM EDT
I normally carry 1 mag in the gun and 2 reloads, that's 52 rounds.  And pepper/OC spray.  And at least one knife.

I intend to make a holster for offhand backup carry also.

If the average LEO takes 8 rounds to stop an assailant, I like the odds better on being able to stop at least 2 without having to reload.  That ammo goes quick under stress.
Link Posted: 6/7/2011 11:07:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JackAR15Bauer:
I throw this out here just to give you some food for thought.  We hear on this forum all the time about shot placement, how "if I cant take him down in 2 shots, I deserve to die" and all that crap, but the fact of the matter is this: you dont know HOW MANY shots you'll need, so why in heaven's name do some of you think 8, or whatever, is enough?  not trying to start any fights, just something to think about and i thought it was well presented here.  I counted about 12 shots, but there were times when he didnt say how many times he shot from a specific position....  

CQC multiple assailants

again, not trying to start a war, but I guess its one of the reasons I chose to find high capacity when I was searching for my new HG.    

beware the "fat guys" !


later!


You imagine and seek out scenarios that support your choice. Others do the same. Here, capacity mattered. Other times not. This is all pretty simple to understand. You feel validated, so that's great for you. Congrats. And, "capacity" is often just another way of saying 9mm is best and/or that .45acp is not needed. Same-o, same-o.

Link Posted: 6/8/2011 4:18:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 6:36:47 AM EDT
You can cherry pick scenarios to fit either argument. The fact of the matter is, youve got to make a decision in your own mind as to how far you want to go and have a "best guess" estimate about what you may encounter. For some that means a 5-shot J frame with no reload. For others that means a full size auto with 15+1 +2 reloads plus a BUG. Every situation is different on a multitude of axes.

If I loaded out for the worst case scenario every day id have a case of MRE's, a spare engine, 2 spare tires, a case of water, spare batteries, spare alternator, backup jack, and a full rolling tool chest in the back of my truck plus about 1000 rounds for a long gun and full sized pistol, sleeping bag, and other assorted items. Or Id just stay home because id be too worried about all that could go wrong.

There comes a time where you have to take a gamble on what you feel you might need in looking at your own situation and the situation of others. The reality is, being engaged by multiple attackers is a bit of a wet dream for many and rare for your average Joe. You also have to face the reality that you cannot prepare for everything and sometimes you DO lose despite your best efforts. You can expend all 50 rounds you carry and still end up dead- or get off 3 rounds of that 50 and be taken out of the game. More ammo does not = automatic win.

Personally I daily carry an auto with 10+1. Once I get a mag carrier ill probably carry a spare 15 if its not too much trouble. In my mind I feel safe with 11. There is no correct answer.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 6:37:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
I took a handgun class a few years ago that was being instructed by a friend of mine that is a federal LEO.  The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics.  The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17.  The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.


 Your friend is ill informed.  Also I can always come up with a senario where you will lose everytime.  Even armed with a MaDuece and 75,000 rounds of ammo.

You carry what you want, I'll carry what I want.  Choosing a carry weapon on capacity alone is a mistake in my humble opinion.  I'd rather carry something I can put rounds on target with under extreme conditions.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 6:57:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rcd567:
Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
I took a handgun class a few years ago that was being instructed by a friend of mine that is a federal LEO.  The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics.  The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17.  The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.


 Your friend is ill informed.  Also I can always come up with a senario where you will lose everytime.  Even armed with a MaDuece and 75,000 rounds of ammo.

You carry what you want, I'll carry what I want.  Choosing a carry weapon on capacity alone is a mistake in my humble opinion.  I'd rather carry something I can put rounds on target with under extreme conditions.


Since I am relying on the word of someone who receives the report and don't have access to it myself, please share the actual data so we can all learn something.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 7:21:56 AM EDT
I love these threads - there is so much fantasy.

A S&W j frame in 38 spc or a ruger 380 you carry all the time is better than an m249 you only carry 50% of the time.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 7:28:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2011 7:40:13 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 7:33:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 7:45:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2011 7:54:05 AM EDT by Merovinchian]
Originally Posted By burnpowder:
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun.  im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing.  it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun.  big whoop.  hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.

so i ask.  why buy a gun you know your going to have to hit a suspect with multiple times to inflict the same damage as a larger caliber?  defeats the point of having more bullets if you ask me.


I can easily swim the length of the local YMCA's lap-pool at full-speed without taking a breath. I'm not skinny either; I bench 245 and run a 7min20second mile. Therefore, my brain and muscles have plenty of oxygen in them to inflict a severe beat-down before I pass-out/loose-steam,... most criminals (I would imagine) are of similar fitness to me.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 7:49:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By echofivekilo:
Originally Posted By burnpowder:
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun.  im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing.  it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun.  big whoop.  hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.

so i ask.  why buy a gun you know your going to have to hit a suspect with multiple times to inflict the same damage as a larger caliber?  defeats the point of having more bullets if you ask me.


Dude, if you think you don't have to (probably) shoot someone multiple times with a .40 or .45 just like you (probably) would with a 9mm, I have some bad news for you.  

Nothing wrong with carrying a .40 or .45 and you can carry as many rounds as you see fit.  It's your life, not mine, you're protecting so I don't have a stake in it.  However, I'd strongly recommend carrying a spare mag.  It's easy and it covers the absolute most likely mechanical failure your weapon can have.  Plus it gives you an extra 10rds in the event that the bad guy(s) don't fall before you like you've imagined they will.


Also, I almost forgot this... I do my training at TDI Ohio. A local medical school/emergency-room/something-like-that had the TDI guys shoot a bunch of anestitised (sp) pigs so they could practice treating gunshot wounds. According to the TDI guys, they couldn't tell the difference between 9mm, 40, and 45 when the bullets were self-dense loads. They didn't mention the effects of ball-ammo.

Link Posted: 6/8/2011 7:59:40 AM EDT
tag for later
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 8:19:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By burnpowder:
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun.  im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing.  it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun.  big whoop.  hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.

so i ask.  why buy a gun you know your going to have to hit a suspect with multiple times to inflict the same damage as a larger caliber?  defeats the point of having more bullets if you ask me.


I suggest you read the ammo oracle.  The red part is a very wrong assumption.  45 isnt the semi-truck of bullets people like to think.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 8:30:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Caliber doesn't matter.

Every round in your magazine is a chance to end a violent encounter before you're dead. Carry as many chances as you can.


Cool, I'll run out and buy me a PMR-30 then for my primary carry gun.  30-shots of .22WMR, by your criteria, beats the low-cap centerfires with their silly 15-19 round magazines.
</sarcasm>

The logical extreme, you just found it.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 8:49:26 AM EDT
I would carry a G.E. Mini Gun if I could.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 8:53:20 AM EDT
Pro Tip:



Don't find yourself in a situation where you are saying to yourself, "I should have left a mag and a half ago."
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 8:55:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2011 2:05:25 PM EDT by BillyDoubleU]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By SD307:
I love these threads - there is so much fantasy.

A S&W j frame in 38 spc or a ruger 380 you carry all the time is better than an m249 you only carry 50% of the time.


That's a silly argument.

Yes, a gun in the hand beats no gun in the hand. That wasn't ever the question.

The question is what is "enough"...and lots of people are basing their judgment of "enough" on flawed assumptions. Bad guys do like to run in packs for the same reasons wolves do. Limiting the conversation to reasonable handgun calibers, having a bigger bullet does not translate into a better chance of putting a bad guy down than a smaller one. The capability to have outgoing fire for as long as possible before needing a reload is a distinct advantage in any problem that must be solved with gunfire.

Making an intelligent choice is nigh unto impossible if people don't understand what the actual problem they are trying to solve looks like. Unfortunately most people don't have that understanding because of lack of personal familiarity, lack of training, and reliance on bad sources of information. (Movies, TV, gun magazines, Uncle Bob, etc.)

Originally Posted By ex_dsmr:
The reality is, being engaged by multiple attackers is a bit of a wet dream for many and rare for your average Joe.


Just about all of the on the street assault (excluding instances of domestic violence, etc) or armed robbery attempt I'm aware of in my area in the last 12 months has involved at least 2 bad guys. I wouldn't refer to multiple attackers as anyone's "wet dream"...it's a fucking nightmare.

...but supposing that there's just one guy, there are lots of documented instances of one guy soaking up a lot of bullets and continuing to do whatever it was that was getting him shot in the first place. If someone has the drop on you and is in the process of trying to kill you, it's highly unlikely that a single handgun bullet is going to render them instantly harmless. You can pretty much bet on a bad guy requiring multiple shots. Under gunfight conditions that are probably in low light on a moving target that is shooting back...well...suddenly that 15 round payload doesn't really seem like a lot of ammo.


Truth!!!

I carry a 1911 with 8+1, why, cuz I love 1911's I love the 45 for what it is.  A big fucking bullet that packs a punch.  Is it the best, nope, do I shoot 9mm better, maybe.  When under stress (competition) I've shot both just as well and just about at fast (A zone hits).  So I would say they are equal for me in that regard but I know that if I am facing multiple attackers and I am protecting my kids/wife then I am in a bad spot... I can't go two hands on my gun (I probably have one kid in my arms) and I have to avoid at all cost a H2H fight and open distance as fast as possible and make those hits count.... at that point it's all about breaking contact and hoping to God they don't pull a gun and hit me, my wife, or kids....plus I am accountable for any lead I let fly...

A fucking nightmare, try the Devils wet dream!

If I am by myself I know very violent retention techniques (like 2nd nature) and would think a better chance in a scrap to the death.  But that only works for 9 rounds.  All this I carry a reload crap....in the scenario presented, do you think you will be able to do a stress reload with a guy beating you in the head?

You better start to think that the bullets in your gun are the only ones you have...

Whether its 6 or 20, it's all you got.  

I can crank out a reload in around 1.5-2.5 second on a smooth run...not while being choked, punched and fighting back... once your guns is empty it is a blunt object and you better use it...

You better also realize that bad folks that have the moxie to attack you and don't run at the sight of a gun have seen it before and are not scared. They have probably used guns in their crimes and have more experience then you do at "REAL" H2H fighting and can probably take a good amount of damage...


Think about it.

ETA: When I have spare $$$ I will end up picking up a Sig P229 SCT with 17 round mags....I shoot a P226 in Tactical matches so I might as well bring that over to my CCW at some point, though I do love my 1911
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 9:14:10 AM EDT
My dilema:  I have relatively small hands.  Not a lot of double stacks fit me well.  So, since single stacks tend to fit me better, I often go with the .45.  Not ideal, I know, but we all have to adapt to what our best options are given our personal limitations and circumstances.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 9:16:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2011 12:14:59 PM EDT by Spook410]
This is a 'what is enough' discussion for a CCW.  There are practical limits so it becomes a question of identifying what is the best compromise.  That means, for most of us, managing size, weight, and ergonomics.  There are several good high capacity, compact 9mm plastic wonders.  They are light, handle well enough, and good examples offer 13+ rounds on tap.  These are pretty comfortable to carry all day in a quality IWB rig.  These meet all minimum requirements.  I think most agree that mouse guns and j frames are not as good a weapon as a compact 9mm though you may sometimes be limited to something that fits in your pocket.  If you go above (full size, hicap 45's, shorty 12gauge), you're just showing off.
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 12:29:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/8/2011 12:38:19 PM EDT
that is why my main carry gun is an SP89 with stacked 30 rounders with 2 30 rounders in the other mag pouches
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