Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/24/2003 10:04:23 PM EDT
I've got a Bersa Thunder .380 I will be carrying soon (waiting on DPS to mail my license.) Already ordered a comptac.

Anyway, I was wondering how some of you carry and what your rational is?

I am thinking of carrying with loaded mag (obviously), hammer cocked, safety off. In this position, all I need is to pull the slide back and I'm ready to fire. I also have zero chance of ND/AD. I do understand that some feel the tradeoff isn't worth it due to the extra time required to pull the slide.

So... convince me one way or the other.... or just share your preferences.

I could carry with one in the chamber safety on. Its double action so first pull would get things moving along.

I feel somehow that carry with one in the chamber safety off hammer cocked is a bad way of going about the business. Just seems to be asking for an AD to me.

Discuss!
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:18:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By XenaduKhan:
Anyway, I was wondering how some of you carry and what your rational is?

I am thinking of carrying with loaded mag (obviously), hammer cocked, safety off. In this position, all I need is to pull the slide back and I'm ready to fire. I also have zero chance of ND/AD. I do understand that some feel the tradeoff isn't worth it due to the extra time required to pull the slide.

I feel somehow that carry with one in the chamber safety off hammer cocked is a bad way of going about the business. Just seems to be asking for an AD to me.

Discuss!



Wow, why have the hammer cocked if you're going to rack the slide anyways? Better yet, why even carry the gun if you'll be leaving the chamber empty? I'd like to see you rack that slide if you end up with one arm behind your back or if it gets broken, guess you could rack it with your teeth. You need to understand, your life or death situation may not give you time to rack the slide!
As far as, "one in the chamber safety off hammer cocked is a bad way of going about the business" you need either more training or a firearm you can trust.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:52:44 AM EDT
well that is why i posted this thread. but the responses i see to things like this seem to be essentially "you are an idiot" without any real explanation or justification for the reasoning.

Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:14:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 9:36:25 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By XenaduKhan:
well that is why I posted this thread. but the responses I see to things like this seem to be essentially "you are an idiot" without any real explanation or justification for the reasoning.



Believe your suggestion of:

I feel somehow that carry with one in the chamber, safety off, hammer cocked is a bad way of going about the business.


Is something, nobody in their right mind, or atleast anyone with a modicum of firearm knowledge would ever suggest that ya do. Anyone even remotely suggesting this to ya, you should run away from immediately for he's a looney tune.

Another thing I noticed when ya first posted was it seems ya been listening to the "Israeli Shooting Techniques" school of thought in carrying a semi-auto and jackin the round in it when needed, which was de-bunked fairly thoroughly in SOF a few months back. Some find this method as absurd as the article author, (myself included).

Since soldiers came back from WWII, folks have been carrying 1911 handguns "cocked & locked" and they are perfectly safe this way. Myself as long as the 1911 doesn't have an "extended safety" on it, I'm happy with "cocked & locked". If it does, as I have had the "extended" ones get shifted to "un-locked" with the cross-draw carry I use, I put the handgun on "half-cock" and carry it that way. Either way, these are choices "you" should be making, not having them made for ya by folks ya haven't a clue about, me included.

Either is faster, than no round in the chamber and hopefully this fits/suffices with your comments above in explaining why (I for one) avoided initial comment.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:33:12 AM EDT
1) By carrying with an empty chamber, you still do NOT have zero chance of ND. That can happen to you under pressure while pulling the slide back. Lots of funny things happen under pressure. There is NOTHING wrong with carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber.

With your type of firearm, I would carry with a round in the chamber, a topped-off magazine, hammer down and safety on. However, since the first pull is DA, you could concievably carry as above, with the safety OFF. All depends on your level of comfort, but more importantly on your training. Personally, I carry a Glock with a full mag (15) plus one in the chamber. Sometimes, it's a 1911 with a full mag (8) and one in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety ON. That extra 1/2 second of having to manipulate the slide could cost you your life. I would not recommend it.

Again, everything rides on your level of comfort, but more than that your training. Don't just go carry your pistol thinking everything is hunky-dory now. You need to TRAIN. Whether it's a class, or just practicing your draw/presentation of the pistol.

Also realize that like it or not, you will PROBABLY have an ND at one point or another. It happens to the best (and worst) of us.

Good luck, and I hope I helped out rather than just ramble on
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:29:00 PM EDT
So the generally accepted practice is round in the chamber, hammer down?

I probably wouldn't carry with safety off, one in chamber, hammer down... with the safety off, there is no hammer block if anything hit the hammer hard enough it would fire.


I am already scheduled for handgun 101 this upcoming wednesday. I plan on intermediate handgun after that.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:39:02 PM EDT
round in the chamber, safety on, hammer down with my ruger p95
round in chamber on my XD
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 12:33:02 AM EDT
When I first started carrying, this same question came to mind. My wife liked the idea of no round in the chamber.
I then explained that this isn't the movies. It may look cool to draw and rack the slide, but it takes time to do that, and some fine motor skills.
For my current carry gun, Beretta 92g Elite II, there is no external safety. The only barrier between me and an AD is keeping my finger off of the trigger and a 8 lbs DA pull. Then it goes to SA at 4 lbs.
If I found my finger on the trigger when it wasn't supposed to be, I'd get some more training.
Cocked and locked on a SA pull is very safe. As safe as the operator.
I wouldn't carry without an external safety if the trigger pull in DA was any lighter.
Get a good holster and belt, that is just as importain as the gun.
-Steve
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 6:45:27 AM EDT
I carry a CZ75DB and sometimes my Ruger P90. I have one in the chamber and a full mag, and drop the hammer so the gun will fire its first shot DA and the rest SA....I have carried like this for a long time with no mishap. There is no point in carrying your gun in a not ready mode. If you need to pull it out it is because you need to use it, and you dont need to be fumbling with it drawing the slide back or fiddling for the safety.Your not at the range, its with you for self defense. Practice with an unloaded gun, drawing it from your holster and dry firing at a suposed target in the differnt modes and see how long it takes you.I bet my way is quickest!!!!
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:33:58 PM EDT
It has been my experience that in the excitment of the moment you will not have the time to chamber that first round. I have been there once. I was relitively new to carrying. At the time I carried a Glock 19. As you probably know the Glocks do not offer a manual saftey. When the event took place, because I was not well praticed, I did not think about a saftey. Now that I am more praticed I carry a 1911 cocked and locked.

As far as my handguns go:
Glock one in the chamber
H&K USP when I first got it one in the chamber hammer down no saftey now cocked and locked
Kimber TLE (current carry gun) cocked and locked.

I have been there once, it helps to know your weapon of choice well enough that you can opperate it without having to think.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 8:58:22 AM EDT
As a civilian who may get into a situation where you'll need your gun, most likely you're gonna be within arms reach which means you're really gonna need that spare hand to block the attacker while you draw your weapon.If you have to rack the slide, you may never have time to fire a shot.I'm not sure how Bersa Thunders are carried but I'm sure it involves a round in the chamber and ready to fire by pulling the trigger or deactivating a safety and then pulling the trigger.Most quality guns are very safe.I don't know why folks insist on carrying w/o a round in the chamber.You might as well not even carry a gun.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 3:09:21 AM EDT
I carry an HK USP45f cocked and locked 1911 style. When I first started carrying years ago I carried a Sig P228 with an empty chamber. My first pistol instructor cured me of that.

When the shit hits the fan not only are you not going to have time to rack the slide, you aren't going to have a free hand either. You will be too busy fighting for your life to ready your weapon-so it will essentially become a poorly made club. The majority of civilian shootings are at arms length and are over in less than five seconds.

In the time it takes to make your pistol ready to fire you will already be unconscious, bleeding out, or dead. Many people have this quaint idea that in a lethal force confrontation they will have time to calmly get behind cover, ready their weapon, take careful aim at their attacker, then shoot to stop (with a single round of course).

It doesn't work that way. Prepare to be jumped, bludgeoned, stabbed, and steamrolled with unthinkable speed and ferocity.

You owe it to yourself to get some training asap.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 2:10:12 PM EDT
This comes up fairly regularly on a lot of forums. The truth is that chamber empty carry is a perfectly acceptable way of carrying your gun and does provide you with some significant safety advantages. Chamber empty carry for autoloaders was the dominant mode for most of the 20th Century, and has been promoted/used by the military, special units such as the SAS, and is still the carry mode you are most likely to find in places where there is a lot of action.
Is it the best way to carry for everybody all the time--no. But don't let the myths and boogeyman stories deter you from that type of carry if you prefer it. For some people, or in some situations, it is the best option. YOU have to decide that yourself.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 10:55:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
This comes up fairly regularly on a lot of forums. The truth is that chamber empty carry is a perfectly acceptable way of carrying your gun and does provide you with some significant safety advantages. Chamber empty carry for autoloaders was the dominant mode for most of the 20th Century, and has been promoted/used by the military, special units such as the SAS, and is still the carry mode you are most likely to find in places where there is a lot of action.
Is it the best way to carry for everybody all the time--no. But don't let the myths and boogeyman stories deter you from that type of carry if you prefer it. For some people, or in some situations, it is the best option. YOU have to decide that yourself.




Well said.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 11:26:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 11:28:45 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 11:42:48 AM EDT
Aimless and darm441 bring up some very reasonable points. The bottom line is that if you don't feel like carrying with a round in the chamber - don't. Be open though, that after a period of time, to the possibility of starting to carry that way. With a quality firearm in a quality holster it's really not a problem.

Racking the slide with only the use of one hand is not a big deal really, but it is something that needs to be practiced - preferably with an unloaded gun.

I know more than a few cops that, while they have ZERO problem carrying their Glock 22 with the chamber loaded all day in their retention holster, choose to carry their back-up Glock 27 with nothing down the pipe (due to the fact it is a back-up and not always carried in a conventional holster).

Link Posted: 10/16/2003 4:28:58 PM EDT
CZ-85 combat w/ hot chamber, hammer down, and safety off. I've yet to AD a round because my finger doesn't touch the trigger till I want it to. I also feel that this gives me the quickest response time. Remember as a responsible CCW holder you are probably going to be pulling your gun either after or during the bad guys draw. Eliminate as many steps as possible.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 10:05:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2003 9:38:15 AM EDT by darm441]
>>I don't know of any police department or self defense instructor ANYWHERE (outside of those wacky Israelis) who still advocates carrying on an empty chamber for self defense purposes.<<
That is somewhat irrelevant. There are a lot of things that are not "still advocated" because something better has come down the pike. That does not mean the old method is no longer any good or should never be used. One of the greatest reasons in support for empty chamber carry is that so many people do not have much training, so what the police are doing or what the SD instructors advocate really isn't applicable. What is applicable are the needs of the individual. That is why each person needs to make an assessment of their needs and the variables they face. For some people in some situations, Chamber empty might be the best way to carry. For other people in other situations, it might be the worst way.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 12:11:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
>>I don't know of any police department or self defense instructor ANYWHERE (outside of those wacky Israelis) who still advocates carrying on an empty chamber for self defense purposes.<<
That is somewhat irrelevant. There are a lot of things that are not "still advocated" because something better has come down the pike. That does not mean the old method is no longer any good or should never be used. One of the greatest reasons in support for empty chamber carry is that so many people do not have much training, so what the police are doing are what the SD instructors advocate really isn't applicable. What is applicable are the needs of the individual. That is why each person needs to make an assessment of their needs and the variables they face. For some people in some situations, Chamber empty might be the best way to carry. For other people in other situations, it might be the worst way.



That's exactly why I think it should be mandatory for people to take a training course in order to qualify for a CCW permit.Anyone who carries should be taking at least one class a year from one of the professional training schools.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 1:26:00 PM EDT
If it is double action the preferred method is one in the chamber, hammer down, safety on. All of my D.A. weapons have a safety that also functions as a decocker so as soon as you put the safety on, it is decocked. If the weapon is needed in a hurry, I am confident in my thousands of practice draws that the safety is not going to be an issue. As I draw the weapon, my thumb slides under the slide portion closest to my body and disengages the safety and I use a 3 finger draw technique with my index finger along the side of the trigger guard ready to engage the trigger if need be.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:01:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hawk1:
Wow, why have the hammer cocked if you're going to rack the slide anyways? Better yet, why even carry the gun if you'll be leaving the chamber empty? I'd like to see you rack that slide if you end up with one arm behind your back or if it gets broken, guess you could rack it with your teeth. You need to understand, your life or death situation may not give you time to rack the slide!
As far as, "one in the chamber safety off hammer cocked is a bad way of going about the business" you need either more training or a firearm you can trust.



I can lend some 'real life' experience which agree with the above words. (Not that I've been in the life and death situation)
I have a busted leg, I walk with a cane and a brace on my foot lower leg/foot. I have adapted to where I can move pretty effectively without my cane in hand- I do it in dry runs and (obviously) regularly at the range.

But, if I were walking down the street with my cane and say, a bag from the store in the other. My hands are truly full. If I drop whats in both hands and draw, I've already used up some precious time. Racking the slide is out of the question.
For the record of what and how: 1911 cocked and locked in a Milt Sparks Summer Special (although I'll be switching to wider snaps pretty soon now that the weather is getting cold)
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 7:18:28 AM EDT
One more for "cocked and locked."
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 7:37:56 AM EDT
When I first started carrying I thought that I would have time to rack the slide, but in the long run I look at that as a waste of time that could possibly give my attacker the advantage.

My two guns that I carry regularly differ in many ways, so I have had to practice with both.

Smith and Wesson 6906 - relitively easy to carry with round in the chamber, safety on slide on safe.

Kel-Tec P11 - This gun has no official safety except for its DAO firing. I was extremely nervous about carrying a round in the chamber, but if I fillow one of the key rules of gun safety and keep my finger off of the trigger then I am OK.

Always practice good sound gun safety. Practice at the range until you are comforatable and know your weapon.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 8:45:49 PM EDT
I always thought "cocked and locked" was the saafest way to carry - never given it much thought - it's just he way I carry my single action autos
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 12:32:43 PM EDT
Carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber is like kicking someone in the balls during a fight...It's uncivilized and may give you an advantage over your attacker. Do you fight fair or do you fight to win?

I fight to win, nothing is sacred. Don't give them an inch or a fraction of a second on you. (My preferred carry is a Glock 22 round in chamber w/fobus holster)

As a carrying civilian, my reason for carrying is to fend off an attack to avoid grave physical harm or death. The key is to stay away from such situations, it's the situation that you cannot avoid such as being blind-sided, where fractions of a second will make the difference.

As far as carrying chamber loaded, cocked, and no safety...It's no less or more safe a method than you are as the operator.

Sly
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 1:29:19 PM EDT
If carrying a sig, I want one in the chamber. A double action pull is required to fire first. I would not want to rack the slide and be in a sticky shoot/no shoot situation in the single action mode. 1911 cocked and locked I dont carry a glock anymore but felt more comfortable carrying one in cond 3 because trigger is the same regardless.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 8:29:07 PM EDT
+1 for "cocked and locked"

I had a HK USP compact that could be carried in the same manner, however, the safety was really smooth and didn't stay properly set - I no longer have that pistol.

Safety is important. Intimately learn to handle the gun you choose to carry.

my .02.
Top Top