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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/31/2006 1:11:02 PM EDT
Ok, so the list of the "Top Ten Most Influential Handguns" in G&A sucks.

Let's start our own here.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:12:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:13:43 PM EDT by VBC]
Might as well start it off.

1911
1911
1911
1911
1911<­BR>1911
1911
1911
1911
1911
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:14:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:14:29 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]

Originally Posted By VBC:
Might as well start it off.

1911
1911
1911
1911
1911<­BR>1911
1911
1911
1911
1911



+1
glock
BHP
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:19:24 PM EDT by OneMan]
I guess 1911 is covered....

GLOCK
Colt Revolver
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:19:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:24:17 PM EDT by gus]
My list, in no particular order... Note that these are the ones I think were most influential, not the ones I like best.

Colt's first revolver (as in the first revolver model produced - I don't know what it was off hand)
Colt SAA
Colt 1911
Glock
Browning HP
Luger
Mauser Broomhandle
Walther P38
Derringer
S&W Model 29


ETA: Colt's first revolver was called the "Colt Revolver". Seriously! I looked it up!

inventors.about.com/od/cstartinventions/a/colt_revolver.htm

Verified:

www.colt.com/mil/history.asp
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:19:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:21:40 PM EDT by Disco_Stu_TX]
Influential to what, design, culture, other?

Colt Peacemaker?
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:20:58 PM EDT
HK VP70

HK was making shitty plastic guns long before Glock started making shitty plastic guns.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:25:41 PM EDT
The first Colt Revolver that was purchased in quantity was the "Walker" in 1847. The Peacemaker was more widely used but came later in 1873.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:30:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Disco_Stu_TX:
Colt Peacemaker?



he said that--colt saa (single action army).

but i would hav to say that the first colt revolvers are near the top of the list. also the first cartridge revolvers--can't remember the manufacturer etc but iirc it was a .22
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:37:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:40:06 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:44:13 PM EDT
In no particular order:

Sig P226
HK USP
Colt 1911
S&W J Frame
Glock
Colt Peacemaker
UZI
JMB Highpower

Thats all that I can think of at the moment.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:53:21 PM EDT
1911
Colt SAA
P38
S&W M19
Glock
BHP
HK P7
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 2:40:52 PM EDT
In no order:

Luger
P-38
Smith M10
GLOCK 17
Beretta 92 series
1911
Hi-Power
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:13:30 PM EDT
1911 - what else can be said, the grand pappy of 90% of gun designs for the past 90 years or so. First gun to popularize the tilting barrel.

BHP - What the 1911 would have been if europeans came up with it first, the first widely adopted doublestack semi, and father of the wondernines.

glock - The the first "modern" handgun to come out since the p-38, the first gun to popularize striker firing, plastic, and built in safeties in a semi auto.

p-38 - The first "modern" handgun ,the father of the beretta 92.

S&W model 10 - the basis for the "everygun", the .38 special. The distilled essence of what a revolver should be and has been thoroughly copied by numerous makers in various forms.

Colt Revolver - the beginning of the revolution. There were revolvers previously, but none worked well enough to become staples.

Thompson Contender - Allowing folks to make up for lack of capacity with overkill. THE single shot handcannon that every other single shot handcannon wants to be.

Kel Tec p11 - The first shot fired in the burgeoning mini-9 market, though it may not be the best, it IS the gun that carved a niche that every other maker now tries to fill. Most notable for its simplicity and for the design being inherently safe vs having safeties built in.


that is all I can think of right now.

I can't say the Luger was an influential design because it was sort of an engineering dead end. The toggle system, though one of the first designs for an automatic pistol, was abandoned . This is as well with the broomhandle Mauser. Both are extremely well known, but I think that has to do more with historical prominence rather than design prowess.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:23:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:

I can't say the Luger was an influential design because it was sort of an engineering dead end. The toggle system, though one of the first designs for an automatic pistol, was abandoned . This is as well with the broomhandle Mauser. Both are extremely well known, but I think that has to do more with historical prominence rather than design prowess.




I must admit, I was trying to reach the number 10. Now that you mention it though, I'd probably sub the Luger and the Mauser, replacing them with the S&W 10 and the Contender.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:26:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 3:26:44 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
5" JMB 1911
Hi-Power
Glock 17,19, and 34.

Nothing else really interests me.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 5:58:31 PM EDT
These five are the warfighting / gunfighting trendsetters. All the others are just followers:

Colt Dragoon - With or without the detachable shoulder stock it was the assault rifle of the day. No rifle could match its firepower. Horse soldiers usually carried two or more and several spare loaded cylinders for increased firepower. Never in the history of warfare has a pistol eclipsed the rifle for frontline battle. It took decades for the rifle to catch up.

Colt 1873 Peacemaker - No more slow reloads with this reliable (for its time) cartridge fed gunfighting pistol.

Colt 1911 - Compact lightweight firepower in the first successful full power automatic. It would rule the battlefield for two world wars and beyond. Some say it’s still the king of battle.

CZ75 - The first successful double action pistol. Father of them all. The double stack magazine combined with outstanding ergonomics and controls made this the first true competition to the 1911design (The Walter P38 had DA first, but fails so miserably out of the holster compared to the 1911 it’s not worthy).

Glock 17 - The first successful lightweight plastic pistol. Only costs $75 to manufacture. Perfect pistol for the common man of the 21st century who fires thousands of rounds a month.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:08:00 PM EDT
1) Colt 1911A1 .45ACP
2) Browning Hi-Power 9x19mm
3) GLOCK 17 9x19mm
4) Beretta 92FS 9x19mm
5) SiG Sauer P226 9x19mm
6) Walther P-38
7) S&W Revolvers
8) H&K Mk. 23 .45ACP
9) H&K USP Series
10) H&K P7
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:15:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 8:21:23 PM EDT by scrum]
Colt SAA
1911
BHP
Luger
Ruger Mk I
S&W M29
Automag
Bren Ten
Glock 17
Casull

I see a lot of good guns in people's list, but a lot of them are not really "unfluential". For influence, I expect a gun to have been copied widely or to be an icon. The SAA and 1911 are icons. The BHP action and takedown system is the most widely used today. Whether or not HK made plastic guns first, Glock popularized them. The S&W 29 was simply Dirty Harry's, and the Casull upped the ante for magnum lovers. The Luger is distinctive and recognizable instantly worldwide. Finally, the Ruger Mk I built one of the largest private firearms manufacturers in America, and regardless of the company's current issues, it's 22 pistols have been a mainstay for decades now.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:29:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
CZ75 - The first successful double action pistol. Father of them all. The double stack magazine combined with outstanding ergonomics and controls made this the first true competition to the 1911design (The Walter P38 had DA first, but fails so miserably out of the holster compared to the 1911 it’s not worthy).






You're not serious, are you?

Your claim that the CZ75 is the "father of them all" is utterly ridiculous.

How many world powers issue the CZ75? Not many? None?

Whether you like the P38 or not, the fact is that it was the first successful military double action pistol, and it served the German military from WWII until the 1970's.

It lives on in the Beretta 92, a P38 with an extended slide and a double column mag.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:47:50 PM EDT
everyone forgets the schofield
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:51:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Your claim that the CZ75 is the "father of them all" is utterly ridiculous.




It's absolutely correct. The CZ75 is the pistol that sired the entire lot of modern double action autos.

“Luke, I am your father!”

The Walther is utterly miserable as a service piece and failed miserably against the 1911 in military trials/tests after WWII. It probably performed okay for Nazis executing defenseless civilians and POWs but is/was substandard for war or any sort of gunfighting.

The Beretta 92 is an okay piece but has nothing notable going for it and plenty of negatives. It’s an updated Beretta 1951 (Helwan) and is not a descendant of the Walther, despite having a similar style tilting locking piece.

Without the CZ75 influence the U.S. military trials for a 9mm replacement for the Colt 1911 would have never occurred. Without the military trials tough new (CZ75 equaling) requirements, Beretta and SIG would probably still remain single stack to this day and the Glock would never have been developed at all. The CZ75 had that huge impact. It's the "father of them all."
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:53:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
everyone forgets the schofield



Educate me. I have not spent alot of time learning about revolvers, and no one has mentioned the first auto pistol, the Borchardt(sp?), which spawned the luger, but also proved the locked breach concept for use in semi-autos.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:53:15 PM EDT
Seems to me “influential” is best defined in this context as introducing or popularizing a design characteristic (or characteristics) that became widely adopted in later designs.

And since change is incremental, it’s really hard to clearly identify those bright lines. Also, the very first attempt was often a relative, if not complete, failure. Hence the almost certainty of endless arguments

Anyway, here’s my list of nine (can’t think of a tenth).

Allen (and similar) pepperboxes – inexpensive, multi-shot handguns typically using DA mechanisms. Introduced about 1835.

Colt Paterson, Walker, and Dragoon revolvers. No comment needed – probably the most influential of all.

Smith and Wesson Model No. 1 revolver. Introduced the rear-loading metallic cartridge based on the Rollin White patent.

Colt Model 1889 Navy revolver – early (don’t know if it was the first) swing out cylinder revolver.

Early Iver Johnson revolvers (I think, maybe H&R also). Introduced transfer bar and offset hammer designs to reliably prevent dropped fully loaded revolvers from discharging.

Borchardt semi-auto pistol. First really workable commercially produced semi design with a locked breech and the magazine in the grip.

Colt Model 1900 Semi-auto. I think this was the first successful Browning design going in the direction of the 1911 and similar designs, and culminating in the BHP.

Walther PP. First widespread use of a DA/SA mechanism in a semi.

Glock. First widespread use of plastic frame and essentially DA only mechanism (though it really isn’t DA only).

To me, Lugers and break-open revolvers were a dead end, while SAA’s and 1911’s were essentially interim designs.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 2:52:44 AM EDT
1911
Single Action Army
Glock (making plastic guns standard place now)


Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:26:55 AM EDT
Colt SAA (obvious)
Colt M1911/A1 (it should be obvious)
Walther PP/PPK (first double-action pistol)
Walther P38 (set the pattern for modern double-action 9mm military pistols)
Colt New Army (served as the basis for many of Colt's later revolver designs)
S&W Hand Ejector (the M&P revolver, as well as many, many other S&W revolvers, trace their ancestry to this weapon)
Browning Hi-Power (most modern pistols use the Hi-Power's barrel locking system)
Glock (first polymer framed pistol to achieve a widespread following in the shooting community)
BREN TEN (first 10mm pistol)
Para-Ordnance P14 (I know most of you guys don't like Para-Ordnance, but it was the first hicap 1911 to the best of my knowledge)
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:30:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scrum:
Colt SAA
1911
BHP
Luger
Ruger Mk I
S&W M29
Automag
Bren Ten
Glock 17
Casull

I see a lot of good guns in people's list, but a lot of them are not really "unfluential". For influence, I expect a gun to have been copied widely or to be an icon. The SAA and 1911 are icons. The BHP action and takedown system is the most widely used today. Whether or not HK made plastic guns first, Glock popularized them. The S&W 29 was simply Dirty Harry's, and the Casull upped the ante for magnum lovers. The Luger is distinctive and recognizable instantly worldwide. Finally, the Ruger Mk I built one of the largest private firearms manufacturers in America, and regardless of the company's current issues, it's 22 pistols have been a mainstay for decades now.



Glad to see the Bren Ten on someone else's list I believe it's influential in that it was the first 10mm, which in turn led to the development of .40 S&W. It was also used on Miami Vice, making it a TV icon.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:17:05 AM EDT

The Bren Ten is a little more than a scaled up CZ75. Just a little.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:33:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
The Bren Ten is a little more than a scaled up CZ75. Just a little.



Yes, from a technical standpoint, you would be correct. And the CZ75 is a direct descendent of the Hi-Power. I mentioned it in my list because it was the first pistol in a major caliber (10mm). Just like how the broomhande Mauser might be worth mentioning because it was the first pistol to be chambered for 9mm Parabellum. Same with the Luger, even if they were technically dead ends, they were the first guns in that given caliber.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:38:40 AM EDT
Tag (I need to think about this one before posting...)
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:35:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
The Bren Ten is a little more than a scaled up CZ75. Just a little.



Yes, from a technical standpoint, you would be correct. And the CZ75 is a direct descendent of the Hi-Power. I mentioned it in my list because it was the first pistol in a major caliber (10mm). Just like how the broomhande Mauser might be worth mentioning because it was the first pistol to be chambered for 9mm Parabellum. Same with the Luger, even if they were technically dead ends, they were the first guns in that given caliber.



The CZ75 is radical when compared to a HP. I don't see it as a descendant with so many missing links. It’s too innovative to be a direct descendant.

The .44 Auto Mag was the first successful MAJOR caliber auto pistol and beat the Bren Ten in numbers made, longevity, power, and design innovation.

I’m not trying to trash the Bren Ten here. I just know what it is from the first briefing I had on it at Gunsite to my preorder and long wait to get my hands on it. It’s an attempt at an improved CZ75 in design, but can not stand up to prolonged firing. I would not mind carrying one if a modern well made version were to be manufactured. The Italian made clone falls too far short of the mark.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 1:06:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
The Bren Ten is a little more than a scaled up CZ75. Just a little.



Yes, from a technical standpoint, you would be correct. And the CZ75 is a direct descendent of the Hi-Power. I mentioned it in my list because it was the first pistol in a major caliber (10mm). Just like how the broomhande Mauser might be worth mentioning because it was the first pistol to be chambered for 9mm Parabellum. Same with the Luger, even if they were technically dead ends, they were the first guns in that given caliber.



The CZ75 is radical when compared to a HP. I don't see it as a descendant with so many missing links. It’s too innovative to be a direct descendant.

The .44 Auto Mag was the first successful MAJOR caliber auto pistol and beat the Bren Ten in numbers made, longevity, power, and design innovation.

I’m not trying to trash the Bren Ten here. I just know what it is from the first briefing I had on it at Gunsite to my preorder and long wait to get my hands on it. It’s an attempt at an improved CZ75 in design, but can not stand up to prolonged firing. I would not mind carrying one if a modern well made version were to be manufactured. The Italian made clone falls too far short of the mark.



Makes sense. I meant the CZ in the context that it uses a similar locking system and is a similar overall concept to the HP, I realize they are two different animals. When I said major caliber, I meant 10mm as a major (important) caliber, I'm sorry for the confusion . Like how 9mm is a major caliber in the sense that it's a very important part of firearms history, etc, 10mm is along those lines as well. After all, 10mm spawned .40 S&W, which is far too commonly used to be ignored.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 1:37:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
The Bren Ten is a little more than a scaled up CZ75. Just a little.



Yes, from a technical standpoint, you would be correct. And the CZ75 is a direct descendent of the Hi-Power. I mentioned it in my list because it was the first pistol in a major caliber (10mm). Just like how the broomhande Mauser might be worth mentioning because it was the first pistol to be chambered for 9mm Parabellum. Same with the Luger, even if they were technically dead ends, they were the first guns in that given caliber.



The CZ75 is radical when compared to a HP. I don't see it as a descendant with so many missing links. It’s too innovative to be a direct descendant.

The .44 Auto Mag was the first successful MAJOR caliber auto pistol and beat the Bren Ten in numbers made, longevity, power, and design innovation.

I’m not trying to trash the Bren Ten here. I just know what it is from the first briefing I had on it at Gunsite to my preorder and long wait to get my hands on it. It’s an attempt at an improved CZ75 in design, but can not stand up to prolonged firing. I would not mind carrying one if a modern well made version were to be manufactured. The Italian made clone falls too far short of the mark.



I debated the Auto Mag vs Bren Ten back and forth, and to be honest it was a draw, so I kept both. But that lost me a slot, and I already had a headache. I debated the CZ and almost put it into the list in favor of the Casull, but got lazy because I got myself trapped in debating the HP to P38 to CZ75 lineage. Then started looking at more Eastern Bloc weapons ... The head ache built. The showdown was ended when the batteries on my laptop beeped the warning of impending hibernation.

In retrospect, I think I would pull the automag and the casull, and put in the P38 and the CZ75. That or drop the Luger since it was a dead end, albeit an elegant dead end and keep the Casull. I'd keep the Bren over the Automag because of the influence of 10mm & .40 S&W cartridges - Is that an ammo influence more than a pistol influence? Anyway, the P38 is simply too influential in terms of DA, regardless of its other drawbacks. The CZ75 did have major (MAJOR) innovations that influenced just about every modern pistol created in the last 25 yrs.

The hardest part for me was knocking off the early development of pistols and stopping with one single old revolver. I still feel silly for leaving off the standard S&W .38 special police revolver, but couldn't decide if it actually influenced anything.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:26:45 PM EDT
1911
Glock
S&W .357 revolver (I forget the model number)
HK squeeze cocker
Browning Hi-power
S&W scandium frame'd BUGs
Beretta 92 (some may hate it, but you have to recognize it's historical value)
Luger
Colt revolver (where the revolver started...)
Can't think of a 10th.

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