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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/14/2003 9:38:02 PM EDT
My department is about to allow anything under the sun for carry.....I'm getting it narrowed down, but want to hear what others have to say also......gimme your two cents worth on which you would carry? And if you have carried/used two or more extensively, I'd love to hear from you.....it's going to be a patrol pistol, as well as a dual use in swat.......

Kimber TLE with rail
Glock 21
HK USP45

Link Posted: 10/15/2003 1:43:07 AM EDT
HK P7M13. Everything else is comprimise.

Enjoy.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 2:20:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 1:18:38 PM EDT
H&K. so sweet. the kimber is nice too, LAPD SWAT uses the custom TLE II
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:37:33 PM EDT
No on the USP. High bore axis, and terrible double action trigger means it is hard to hit in rapid fire.

The kimber and the glock are good choices, good triggers, and low bore axis. The Glock is 13+1 the Kimber is 8+1, so the glock wins because of more ammo.

Most LEO's I know shoot glocks, they even use them for competition.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 6:18:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 6:20:14 PM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]
G21. 13+1 rounds. No manual external saftey to fumble. Drop safety...carry one in pipe safely.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 6:28:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 3:13:02 AM EDT
In order of preference...

Kimber
USP

­
Glock
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 4:09:03 AM EDT
I take it a Glock is a distant 3rd?
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 7:26:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 7:28:40 AM EDT by j_ratliffe]
another vote for the glock 21. the best 45 made in my opinion. but then again, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 7:28:06 AM EDT
Kimber then Glock , Never shot a HK.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:52:16 PM EDT
get 2 glocks for the price of one kimber. get 5 glocks for the price of h&k.

i prefer having 2 guns than just 1. i would get a glock 37 to have hicap mags. then i get a small glock to have as backup gun. of course, i'll get a derringer 2 shot .45 to keep at close by at all time.

h&k is for rich people. kimber is for super professional like competion shooters, who do a little more serious work than regular cops. most guns are more accurate than people can appricate. unless you plan to aim forever before shooting, a glock is way more than enough.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:45:51 PM EDT
There might be some kimbers in IDPA CDP, or USPSA limited 10, but they are far from the dominate gun. Actually there are tons and tons more glocks at pistol matches.

How do you get high cap mags for the 37? As far as I know the only ones are for law enforcement.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 8:15:13 PM EDT
You know, I've heard it said by people that have shot all three that the finest .45 ever made is the H&K. I haven't personally shot a Kimber, yet, but I have shot both Glock and H&K. I bought the H&K. I'll grant you that the DA trigger pull is a little tough, but my recommendation would be to grow stronger, besides, you're shooting a .45, so if you don't have a LITTLE bit of strength in your hands, you're going to have some serious problems with accuracy on rapid fire, which you will need for SWAT, I'm told. If you're really worried about it, carry it with the hammer back and the safety on. The location of the safety makes it extremely easy to turn off as you draw, with only a little practice. As for capacity, as was mentioned, the G21 is only 13+1, while the USP comes in at 12+1. Again, that one round could be the difference in life and death in the wrong situation, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable carrying a round in the chamber of an USP than a Glock. I've heard all there is to hear about how safe the actions of a Glock are and how they can't be fired without a deliberate trigger pull, but I have a neat story about that. A friend of mine had a slight accident one night while the two of us were cleaning our pistols and he forgot step one of cleaning a Glock: Clear the stupid chamber. The hole in his hand was impressive, as was the hole in the three inch thick particle board table right under where his hand had been. When the police arrived on scene, the first officer through the door was a woman that I got a chance to talk to later. She said her sergeant did the exact same thing. When I arrived at the hospital, the head nurse on his floor told me she sees about one of those a month where a Glock owner forgot to clear the chamber before disassembling the weapon. Most people are really careful, but laxity occasionally does happen, thus the term "accidental discharge." A though on that is that you don't need to put your finger anywhere near the trigger to disassemble the USP. That, then, would be where my recommendation lies, because of safety, reliability (every bit as good or better than a Glock), and price. Yeah, I know the Glock is cheaper, but the USP is still going to be cheaper than the Kimber. And, thanks to GG&G, you can still mount an M6 on the rail. Have fun with it.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 8:26:25 PM EDT
Kimber

­


Kimber



KIMBER

........but then I like 1911's
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 11:51:33 PM EDT
First off, if clearing the chamber to clean your firearm is too much trouble...do the world a favor and sell your firearms, you're too irresponsible to own them. Your friend basically suffered from his own stupidity, it wasn't the guns fault. Not recommend a Glock because of that? LOL...I needed that laugh..
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 6:12:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShotgunStewie:
You know, I've heard it said by people that have shot all three that the finest .45 ever made is the H&K. I haven't personally shot a Kimber, yet, but I have shot both Glock and H&K. I bought the H&K. I'll grant you that the DA trigger pull is a little tough, but my recommendation would be to grow stronger, besides, you're shooting a .45, so if you don't have a LITTLE bit of strength in your hands, you're going to have some serious problems with accuracy on rapid fire, which you will need for SWAT, I'm told. If you're really worried about it, carry it with the hammer back and the safety on. The location of the safety makes it extremely easy to turn off as you draw, with only a little practice. As for capacity, as was mentioned, the G21 is only 13+1, while the USP comes in at 12+1. Again, that one round could be the difference in life and death in the wrong situation, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable carrying a round in the chamber of an USP than a Glock. I've heard all there is to hear about how safe the actions of a Glock are and how they can't be fired without a deliberate trigger pull, but I have a neat story about that. A friend of mine had a slight accident one night while the two of us were cleaning our pistols and he forgot step one of cleaning a Glock: Clear the stupid chamber. The hole in his hand was impressive, as was the hole in the three inch thick particle board table right under where his hand had been. When the police arrived on scene, the first officer through the door was a woman that I got a chance to talk to later. She said her sergeant did the exact same thing. When I arrived at the hospital, the head nurse on his floor told me she sees about one of those a month where a Glock owner forgot to clear the chamber before disassembling the weapon. Most people are really careful, but laxity occasionally does happen, thus the term "accidental discharge." A though on that is that you don't need to put your finger anywhere near the trigger to disassemble the USP. That, then, would be where my recommendation lies, because of safety, reliability (every bit as good or better than a Glock), and price. Yeah, I know the Glock is cheaper, but the USP is still going to be cheaper than the Kimber. And, thanks to GG&G, you can still mount an M6 on the rail. Have fun with it.



So let me understand this - you have an aversion to clearing your gun before cleaning.

If this is the case, am I to understand you begin cleaning all your firearms regardless of if live ammo is in the chamber (or not)?
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 6:27:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
G21. 13+1 rounds. No manual external saftey to fumble. Drop safety...carry one in pipe safely.



Revolvers don't have them either, if I need the kind of confidence that no safeties and a round ready to roll at the squeeze of the trigger -- I'll carry a 2.5" barrel S&W 686+...

Hell, by this logic a revolver is actually the BEST gun ever for this task....all autos have the capability of jamming a round. With a revolver you just pull the trigger and the gun will go bang, if it doesn't pull again....

To answer the question directly:

Kimber {or Wilson Combat CQB}
H&K if you have hands that can handle the larger grip
Glock if you don't intend to practice using the gun and need "simple".
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 7:57:15 AM EDT
I could be wrong but as far as I know you dont have to have a DA H&K. Unless you are talking about the first shot with the hamer down.

I would say H&K, then Glock then kimber. The KImber is heavy, prone to rust, and overrated.

IMHO
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 9:17:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By live-free-or-die:
The Kimber is heavy, prone to rust, and overrated.

IMHO



Most alloys of steel are prone to rust...rust can be prevented with proper maintenance.

YMMV....

Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:42:26 PM EDT
GO GLOCK !!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 8:37:01 AM EDT
Glock all the way, high mag capacity, light weight, consistent trigger pull, ease of maint,more than accurate enough, cheap to repair if needed.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 8:12:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2003 8:18:31 PM EDT by BigJ491]
"Get yourself a Glock, and get rid of that nickle plated sissy pistol." -Tommy Lee Jones (from U.S. Marshals)
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 8:42:02 AM EDT
Another vote for the G21.

When the conversation ends and the confrontation begins, I favor the Glock as it has less items to snag, drag, break, or get in my way.


Sly
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 3:20:37 PM EDT
Glock 20 or 21 cranked up to 45 super. Next would be a 1911 in 10mm or one cranked up to 45 super.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 6:54:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShotgunStewie:
Again, that one round could be the difference in life and death in the wrong situation, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable carrying a round in the chamber of an USP than a Glock. I've heard all there is to hear about how safe the actions of a Glock are and how they can't be fired without a deliberate trigger pull, but I have a neat story about that. A friend of mine had a slight accident one night while the two of us were cleaning our pistols and he forgot step one of cleaning a Glock: Clear the stupid chamber. The hole in his hand was impressive, as was the hole in the three inch thick particle board table right under where his hand had been. When the police arrived on scene, the first officer through the door was a woman that I got a chance to talk to later. She said her sergeant did the exact same thing. When I arrived at the hospital, the head nurse on his floor told me she sees about one of those a month where a Glock owner forgot to clear the chamber before disassembling the weapon. Most people are really careful, but laxity occasionally does happen, thus the term "accidental discharge."





Link Posted: 11/16/2003 2:37:08 PM EDT
Glock.
Kimber.

HK doesn't even come into the picture.

bc
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 4:32:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By B_Coyote:
HK doesn't even come into the picture.



Why? Is the safety too complex for you?

Or maybe it's too expensive?

Or maybe Austrians are OK, but Germans are assholes.....

How can an H&K not enter the picture??

Silly.
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 7:46:55 PM EDT
Because some people don't care for the high bore axis, terrible double action trigger, and funny muzzle flip of the dual recoil system of the HK. add on top of that that HK is overpriced and for me they lose their appeal.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 3:53:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
<<snip rationalizations>>...add on top of that that HK is overpriced and for me they lose their appeal...



Oh, OK...

So you can't afford them.......I see.

Link Posted: 11/17/2003 7:15:40 AM EDT
Actually my Glock 35 is close to the price of a USP, but with the 35 I get a competition ready pistol. No matter how much money you dump into a HK it will not be suitable for competition.

I understand that some people are HK fantics. Personally after shooting the USP, and seeing that nobody is running them in USPSA/IPSC competition (what I like to do) I think the USP is a lot of hype.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 12:54:19 PM EDT
Funny to stumble across this thread.. because I own one of each of the 45s you are discussing. And if I was going to carry for social purposes, the Glock would get the nod. My rationale:
Best trigger / best accuracy: Kimber. No contest. But the topic was social/duty use, so the difference between 1.5" groups and 2.5" groups seems academic. All three are more than adequate for "minute of a-hole" work.
Mag capacity: Glock. Since I am not LE, my only HK mags are 10 rounders. Not that the extra 2 rounds mean a big deal, but it has to be worth something.
Fastest draw, first shot hit: Kimber... but that has more to do with my having fired a 1911 several times over what I have put through the others. Glock is close second. HK is close third.
Fastest clearing of plate rack: Glock (just barely). Then Kimber (close second), then HK (semi-distant third). High bore axis of HK just makes it slow in my hands for multiple shot strings.

To summarize, the Glock holds the most rounds, shoots the fastest in multiple shot scenarios, and shoots plenty straight enough. Not too huge to carry, and reliable as hell. What else could factor in on a duty weapon? Oh yeah.. safety. Geez, some debate...if you consider it a liability that the thing will fire if you pull the trigger with a round chambered, then I don't really know how to counter that point.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:25:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
No matter how much money you dump into a HK it will not be suitable for competition.



In the right hands....

A world class skeet shooter can shoot 100 straight with an 18" 870. Maybe not the best tool for the GAME, but will still kill 100 birds.

Someone who practices with an H&K, chosen because it is a natural fit, or natural pointer, or whatever other reason will be a far better shot with their piece of shit H&K, then the guy who buys a Glock or Kimber and does nothing but look at it in the safe.

It's practice, practice, practice......I will point out again that when the competition becomes more about what gun you chose than how well you shoot, the game is no longer indicative of anything other than a large credit bill or ligher wallet.

How sad.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:26:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dud-57:
Funny to stumble across this thread.. because I own one of each of the 45s you are discussing. And if I was going to carry for social purposes, the Glock would get the nod. My rationale:
Best trigger / best accuracy: Kimber. No contest. But the topic was social/duty use, so the difference between 1.5" groups and 2.5" groups seems academic. All three are more than adequate for "minute of a-hole" work.
Mag capacity: Glock. Since I am not LE, my only HK mags are 10 rounders. Not that the extra 2 rounds mean a big deal, but it has to be worth something.
Fastest draw, first shot hit: Kimber... but that has more to do with my having fired a 1911 several times over what I have put through the others. Glock is close second. HK is close third.
Fastest clearing of plate rack: Glock (just barely). Then Kimber (close second), then HK (semi-distant third). High bore axis of HK just makes it slow in my hands for multiple shot strings.

To summarize, the Glock holds the most rounds, shoots the fastest in multiple shot scenarios, and shoots plenty straight enough. Not too huge to carry, and reliable as hell. What else could factor in on a duty weapon? Oh yeah.. safety. Geez, some debate...if you consider it a liability that the thing will fire if you pull the trigger with a round chambered, then I don't really know how to counter that point.



Excellent and balanced post. Way to go......
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:10:38 PM EDT
I have to agree.......with reading many of the post on several topic forums......and doing lots of shooting with all three...I've reached the same conclusion as the above post. well done on the explanation and reasoning.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 1:47:33 AM EDT
Shivan

The arguement stands that the 1911 and Glocks are the two predominat pistols in the various shooting sports. They are popular not because they are trendy, but because they perform. The HK is probaly one of the least popular pistols in USPSA/IPSC because of the flaws I mentioned (high bore axis, poor double action trigger, funny wobble in the recoil due to the double recoil springs). Yes you can overcome handicaps with practice. Yes you can beat those you spend money and place no effort. you can make the arguement about anything. We are debating the equipment in this thread, not any given persons dedication.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 5:50:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
(high bore axis, poor double action trigger, funny wobble in the recoil due to the double recoil springs).



Yes, I know, this is your mantra.

I still find it odd that critical selections are made for firearms all the time, and the one that seems to be on critical operations, of a "delicate" nature, is the H&K. Even with it's "high bore axis, poor double action trigger, and funny wobble in the recoil due to the double recoil springs".

The gun that seems to adorn all the non-shooting cops duty belts is a Glock. The one most pursued by field level Marines is the 1911.

Very odd indeed.

I'm still wondering what some folks know that others refuse to acknowledge?
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 9:21:41 AM EDT
There are other factors to why certain military units use one firearm over another. Some of it is politics. People make references because seals use this gun or that gun. Well the goverment decides which gun to issue their special forces units. Also those special forces units could and would get the job done with anyones hardware.

What law enforcement and goverment agencies are issued is also politics. A good portion of it is what level of support and how low a manufacurer can bid on a contract.

Military law enforcement and goverment agencies are issued their weapons. Competition shooters spend their own money and choose the best ones for their purpose. In general HK can't even pay people to shoot their guns in competition. I know one ex-HK sponsered competitior John Flentz who left because the gun was holding him back.

For concealed carry I see a lot of everything. That's personal preference, and what you can conceal. The full size USP is a big pistol and difficult to conceal. You could go with the compact, but you trade a much shorter barrel. The USP compact is about the size of a compact glock 19, but it has the barrel lenght of a sub compact glock 26. So the same size hk besides having a higher bore axis has a shorter barrel than a equivelent size glock! Add on that the Glock has more mag capacity and high caps are not difficult to obtain and you have a winner. The majority of people I know use glocks as their CCW weapons including cops. The tuff finish is highly resistent to holster wear and rust, and the gun is light making it easy to carry. The second choice is some sort of 1911, followed by kahrs and snub nose wheel guns. I only know of one person who carries a HK and it's a non USP P7 (which I think is a decent pistol by the way).

If your the mall ninja/Gun store commando type then yes I can see what the special forces are ISSUED would be a factor. As a regular citizen, competition shooter and consumer I primarily focus on what works for me, what my peers are using, and factory why certain products have the largest market shares.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 9:24:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2003 9:43:55 AM EDT by SHIVAN]
www.f-r-i.com/glock/misc/overview.htm

Ergonomics
The Glock was designed from the ground up for one thing: combat. The ergonomics are perfect for a gun intended to be used on the battleground, on the beat, or in self-defense.

For many shooters, the Glock points very naturally and sits comfortably in the hand. The wide backstrap (the back part of the grip area) spreads the recoil force out across a larger area of the hand, reducing felt recoil. However, some shooters with very small hands find the grips too wide and cannot comfortably handle Glocks.

The Glock does not have any hammer mechanisms in the receiver, so the backstrap continues right to the edge of the slide, so the Glock has a high bore axis. This means the shooter can place his hand almost perfectly in line with a barrel. The higher the bore axis, the more the gun recoils straight back, rather than torquing upwards. The result is that Glocks tend to have less muzzle flip than many other handguns.

Because there is no need for parts like a hammer. etc., behind the chamber, Glocks can also have longer barrels than similarly sized guns. For example, the H&K USP40 (3.58" barrel), SIG-Sauer P229 (3.8" barrel), and S&W 4013 (3.5" barrel) are all approximately the same size as the Glock 23 with its 4.02" barrel.

There are very few controls on a Glock to deal with during a life-or-death struggle. There is the trigger, the magazine release, and the slide stop lever (which is used only to lock the slide open when there is no magazine in the gun). No external safeties, decockers, etc. The manual of arms for the Glock pistol is very simple: point and shoot.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~­~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you sure you know what you are talking about??? You keep spouting off about a high bore axis being bad, but this compilation says it's good, and that the Glock is the one with the high bore axis.

Edited to add:

Ah, I see now, it's just that it is higher than the Glock....which drives it back with more force and is detrimental to a speedy second shot.

I'm tracking, though they both have high bore axis, one is higher than the other.

Got it.


Link Posted: 11/19/2003 9:37:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
There are other factors to why certain military units use one firearm over another. Some of it is politics. People make references because seals use this gun or that gun. Well the goverment decides which gun to issue their special forces units. Also those special forces units could and would get the job done with anyones hardware.

What law enforcement and goverment agencies are issued is also politics. A good portion of it is what level of support and how low a manufacurer can bid on a contract.

Military law enforcement and goverment agencies are issued their weapons. Competition shooters spend their own money and choose the best ones for their purpose. In general HK can't even pay people to shoot their guns in competition. I know one ex-HK sponsered competitior John Flentz who left because the gun was holding him back.

For concealed carry I see a lot of everything. That's personal preference, and what you can conceal. The full size USP is a big pistol and difficult to conceal. You could go with the compact, but you trade a much shorter barrel. The USP compact is about the size of a compact glock 19, but it has the barrel lenght of a sub compact glock 26. So the same size hk besides having a higher bore axis has a shorter barrel than a equivelent size glock! Add on that the Glock has more mag capacity and high caps are not difficult to obtain and you have a winner. The majority of people I know use glocks as their CCW weapons including cops. The tuff finish is highly resistent to holster wear and rust, and the gun is light making it easy to carry. The second choice is some sort of 1911, followed by kahrs and snub nose wheel guns. I only know of one person who carries a HK and it's a non USP P7 (which I think is a decent pistol by the way).

If your the mall ninja/Gun store commando type then yes I can see what the special forces are ISSUED would be a factor. As a regular citizen, competition shooter and consumer I primarily focus on what works for me, what my peers are using, and factory why certain products have the largest market shares.



Interesting, I made no mention of any particular groups. However, some of your assertions about weapons selection/issuance in the elite military units is off base.

Without getting in to a he said/she said, take a look at any picture that has more than one elite special forces operator in it, like the pics of the Delta boys carrying Uday and Qusay huessein. I believe you can recognize 4 different sidearms in those pictures. One was a 1911 IIRC.

Take a look at the pics of the assaination attempts in Afghanistan where the elite special ops boys were, you'll also notice at least three different sidearms, as well as AK's, M4's, MP5's, etc.....

Units like the 82nd and 101st are issued weapons from an armory, operators on the next level use their budget to procure the stuff they want and the stuff they know works well.

Although to be honest, I have yet to see a picture of any US elite specops guys carrying H&K's, I have it on reliable advisement that there are, in fact H&K's being used in the field.

BTW, anyone who blames a tool for holding him back is an assclown. I would NEVER, even if handed a Glock, blame the gun for MY poor performance.

If I couldn't shoot a CZ well the first time, I would shoot that CZ until I could hit exactly where I wanted.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:26:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2003 10:27:14 PM EDT by Yar1182]
Shivan

You need to be careful what sources you quote when you are ingorant on the subject. The source you quoted is 100% wrong. I think they confuse "high grip" with "high bore axis".

Bore axis is how high or low a barrel sits in your hand. The lower the barrel sits in your hand the more leverage you have. It's a matter of physics. The Glock and 1911 have the lowest bore axis, and the HK and revolvers are among the highest.


From chuckhawks.com...
Glock pistols have several fundamental design advantages over most other pistols . . . the grip angle is ergonomic . . . Glock pistols are known as "soft" shooters. Another advantage is the Glock's low bore axis. This minimizes muzzle flip . . . it also tends to minimize perceived recoil.



Link to chuckhawks.com quote


From hecklerkoch-usa.com...

Muzzle jump is a bit more than one might
expect, however, because the bore axis of the
USP Tactical is relatively high compared to a
Colt Model 1911A1



Link to hecklerkoch-usa.com quote
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:35:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 5:39:08 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
Shivan

You need to be careful what sources you quote when you are ingorant on the subject.



I guess the same admonishment could be given to you, for your comments above on the weapons procurement practices of certain military operatives.

Hmm...??

Further, I guess Miculek has a huge issue with high bore axis guns holding him back too? Um, or maybe not....

BTW, the Sig Sauer P series handguns also have a high bore axis, though they are not nearly as slighted as the H&K USP series of pistols.

I also rarely see them come up in comparison requests as often, so maybe that would be the root cause of less "bad press" from Glockaholics.

Remember, just because you chose Glock doesn't make it the best gun on the planet. Nor does a host of police department selections make it anything other than a fiscally responsible committee selection. Market share does not an accurate and reliable gun make? I'm sure that just one model Glock .45 outsells Les Baer, Wilson Combat, and Ed Brown 1911's every year -- but I'd be willing to bet those pistols are more accurate and every bit as reliable. Or maybe the history of the 1911 was exaggerated. I don't know, I wasn't in the Pacific theater in the 40's.

I will illustrate again that there are people in this world who have more concerns than how a pistol performs in IDPA. They have been known to WIDELY choose a 1911 variant, an H&K pistol, or maybe a Sig Sauer or S&W revolver. Of the boys I know in uniform, they don't recount a Glock making it to the battlefield very often.

I will ask again: "I wonder what they know that we don't???"
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:45:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:

From chuckhawks.com...
Glock pistols have several fundamental design advantages over most other pistols . . . the grip angle is ergonomic . . . Glock pistols are known as "soft" shooters. Another advantage is the Glock's low bore axis. This minimizes muzzle flip . . . it also tends to minimize perceived recoil.

]



It's ergonomic TO ME if it fits MY hand correctly, not because it fits a gun reviewers hand correctly, or yours. I find Glocks don't point as naturally as my 1911's or my H&K's. I have not ever been recoil averse so I guess the fact that a pistol is a "soft shooter" or soft on recoil is a moot point for me and many other shooters. But if it makes YOU feel better about the gun, great! I had never experienced excessive muzzle flip as I could execute accurate double taps with all my H&K's, I guess my minimal practice overcame certain design "flaws" in the H&K's. Who knows? Would a second shot come more quickly on a Glock? Guess that depends on the shooter, huh?[/red
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:11:43 AM EDT
Shivan'

The top 2 guns in IDPA are the 1911 (CDP), and the Glock (SSP, ESP, and 2nd in CDP). In IDPA you will see other guns such as berettas, XD's, Sigs, etc. Heck you might even see a USP or two. Still my reference to the 1911 and glock still holds true as the two dominant/popular pistols for competition.

Again I place more value in what private citizens and competition shooters choose because they are regular consumers. Goverment agencies, law enforcement, and the military have a different set of criteria that include politics because we are dealing with contracts.

I do believe the Israeli military and the Austrailian military are being issued Glocks. Does this count in your the glock does not make it to the battle field very often?

Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:39:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
Again I place more value in what private citizens and competition shooters choose because they are regular consumers. Goverment agencies, law enforcement, and the military have a different set of criteria that include politics because we are dealing with contracts.



Not in some cases, hmm??

I put more weight on the use of 1911's and H&K's in the hands of the people who are protecting my right to live here in the cushy USA.

It would appear our valuation of the worth of a firearms design and reputation are at odds. Big deal.

FWIW, I hear that Team H&K does pretty well at the national IDPA shoots.

So, I'm guessing if all your peers excelled in IPSC and IDPA using a Jennings or Lorcin you'd consider them too?

Sometimes the rationale we use when we chose things is a little off. I bought the H&K USP because it pointed most naturally, shot the best when I used it and it fit my hands like a glove. The mag release is among the best, and I wanted an external safety. Not to mention the durability and reliability factors of a firearm issued to the best of the best KILLERS in the world. Not competitors. Not private citizens with a wild hair up their ass, but professional killers.

They must know something I don't....so I look outside my peer set and determine what the best of the best rely on. If they rely on it to keep them alive, there must be something to it. Hmm?

I guess my rationale was weird, but at the time no other pistol shot as smoothly or fit me as well as the USP. I bought my USP with an open mind to the matters that are important to a defensive sidearm purchase.

Fit/Ergonomics, shooting accuracy and reliability.

I'm not sure you could give the USP or any other gun a fair shake, if asked to do so....maybe the Glock was meant for you, just as the H&K was nearly a perfect match for me.

I'm not so rabid an H&K fan, as you are a Glock fan, and I still approach things with an open mind.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:26:52 AM EDT
Shivan

Goverment agencies such as the FBI, and law enforcement protect your life and interests also. Many of them are issued Glocks. I would think there are many more so Glocks protecting your life and interests than there are H&K's. What military units use the H&K besides the seals. From what I understand they mostly use sigs, and sometimes the huge beast called the H&K Mark 23 Socom.

Second can you tell me who is on this Team HK, and what their finishes are at IDPA nationals?

I am a big fan of Glocks because their versitility as a military sidearm (for which it was originally designed for), a duty weapon (for goverment agencies such as the FBI, and law enforcement), a competition pistol (top gun alsong with the 1911 in USPSA/IPSC, and IDPA), and amoung the best selling pistols for everyday consumers who depend on it for concealed carry and home defense.

There are many other fine pistols. I particularly like the 1911's, berettas, and Browning/CZ's. I just don't care for the USP for the reasons I mentioned.
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