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Posted: 9/24/2004 10:22:32 PM EST
... With the AWB behind us now, these pistols are looking very tempting to me. Light-weight, (20) round magazines, tactical rail

... Ballistics are impressive but ammo is a bit steep.

... Why should or shoudn't I consider it for new purchase and perhaps a new daily carry?

Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:27:54 PM EST
It hits flesh like a .22 WMR, otherwise a pretty good gun. Caliber is, cost aside, just about the best plinking round ever devised.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:33:50 PM EST
This is a weapon designed to defeat body armor. Last I heard it is illegal for civilians to possess or own. The gun itself is very tightly regulated and the 5.7 ammo even more tightly regulated. Maybe My info is out of date, I doubt it.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:37:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It hits flesh like a .22 WMR, otherwise a pretty good gun. Caliber is, cost aside, just about the best plinking round ever devised.



... You have to be kidding right?

... Muzzle energy is about that of the 45ACP with a purported muzzle velocity at 2345 FPS. With a 20 round mag, one in the pipe and a back-up mag, you'd have an awesome weapon system.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:39:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mattl:
This is a weapon designed to defeat body armor. Last I heard it is illegal for civilians to possess or own. The gun itself is very tightly regulated and the 5.7 ammo even more tightly regulated. Maybe My info is out of date, I doubt it.



... Nope. They're selling to civies now. CDNN Investments have them for $699
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:40:22 PM EST
Sure, it punches right through body armor, but it doesnt do much on the other side. It tumbles a little, but leaves a clean hole.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:53:43 PM EST


P99Guy's picture of when its not shot into body armor..
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 10:55:05 PM EST


Troy says its like a .22 WMR
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 11:36:51 PM EST
Fuckin sweet Thanks for the fresh info
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 11:41:36 PM EST
Can anyone post a link or contact number can't find it
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 11:43:08 PM EST
I won't be shot on sight if a cop sees this will I?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:35:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 10:16:01 AM EST by DmL5]
There have been a few shootings with the P-90 and all were very quick one-shot stops. The difference between the P-90 and Five-seveN wounding abilities is that the P-90 shoots 200 fps faster. No, this weapon was not designed to defeat body armor; that is merely one of its design attributes. The P-90 and Five-seveN came as a result of a US Army PDW program from which the preferred ballistics were defined.

Yes, the Five-seveN is now legal, but only with the SS-192 JHP ammo. You could get lots of info from p99guy about this round, as he shot up a vest with it and more. Also, another member here was going to test it on a hog, so keep watching for that. Combat_Jack, where do you get the info that the SS-190 doesn't do much "on the other side"? Articles from Doc Roberts or Dr Fackler? I've seen all of them about this round and don't need to see them again. According to an article from Charles Petty, the P-90 penetrates 9" of flesh AFTER penetrating a Level IIA vest. The SS-190 tumbles a LOT; it is turned upright (which would mean 1" tall wound) throughout nearly the entire travel, which is 11 to 13.5 inches with the P-90. Study the below picture.



Here is another post from a different message board:


In actuality, the wound channel is approx. 3.5 to 4 in. due to the fact that the round tumbles in soft tissue and after it exits a solid medium such as wood or drywall. This system has also had a 100% fatality rate in the U.S. What this means is that everyone who was shot in a vital region of the body has expired. One subject in Sioux Fall S.D. was shot in the hand and the arm through a solid core door. He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered, leaving him with little use of the arm. Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. The bullet also did not exit his body. I doubt that if this round had a wound channel that resembled a .22 Mag, it would do that sort of damage. Also the Secret Service and the Federal Protective Service has adopted the P90 as their new PDW. They did exhaustive tests of both reliability and ballistics. The SS190 bullet is almost 1 in. long. If it were passing sideways through soft tissue, which is what it does when it tumbles, it would certainly create at least a 1" wound cavity. Now, add to that syntactical energy produced by the round traveling 2300 fps (P90) or 2100 (FsN) and you have soft tissue tearing off the axis' (ends) of the bullet creating a much larger permanent wound cavity. I have done gelatin testing with this system and every police officer that saw it was needless to say very impressed. Again, if this were such a poor performer, why would the Secret Service adopt both the P90 and the FsN? Don't you think they would want a round that creates a large wound cavity and does not over penetrate? In fact the 5.7x28mm round is very close to be approved as a NATO round. If you have any question about the effectiveness of this round, I would encourage you to call Sgt. Sandy Wall at Houston PD SWAT and ask him about the shooting they had where the suspects heart was literally cut in two halves. I would also get in touch with the US Secret Service who has done extensive ballistic testing with this system. They are so impressed that they are replacing all 9mm sub machine guns with the P90. Do you think for a second that they would adopt a system that would not even work as well as what they had? In fact when they reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility. Another interesting point that comes form this testing is that Dr. Fackler told the Secret Service before the tests that this system is ineffective. The Secret Service on the other hand had this to say... "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system"
I would be careful of anyone who claims to know this system after only having fired one round in testing. To make the statement that Dr. Roberts does undermines his credibility and that of the people in the ballistic community. Gelatin is not human tissue. Dr. Fackler has been wrong before and I believe he wrong here as well. The proof is in the adoption of this system by the US Federal Government as well as over 25 counties across the globe. In the assault on the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru, which is where the P90/5.7 system first went operational, all of the hostage takers were eliminated through their level 3 body armor. This includes the leader who was
hit with one round through his body armor and expired. There are dozens of state and local departments here in the US who have adopted the system. I don't know of one department who said that the system was not effective ballistically.

All the experience and real life examples speaks louder than any single round fired into a mold or a
"professional" writing up ballistics on paper.

Fact: The expert told the Secret Service the round would not be effective.
Fact: The Secret Service did their own tests
Fact: The Secret Service, though they respected his opinion, said he was wrong.

I now have a solid opinion about this subject.

About a week ago, I had absolutely no credible opinion about this round and I knew very little about it. I had shot it in the past, but I didn’t do any research on it. The only thoughts I did have about it where based on what people were telling me here. Basically, all negative. I’ve taken the initiative and I’ve done the research into the allegations and rumors circling around the FN 5.7x28. So far, I’ve found that some of the opinions presented, even some of the professional ones, have been false, misguided or lack real world examples.

The only things left are your ballistics experts you continue to refer back to.

Example of single shot kills:

- Houston PD Swat - Single shot to the chest. tumbled into the heart and cut it in half.
- Doraville, GA. Swat - Single neck shot.
- Lima, Peru. Japanese Embassy. - Single shot to the chest, through body armor.

We’ll see more after the IOM hits the streets in mass.

I’ve already quoted three examples of single shots. Interesting note about the one person who managed to survive an attack from the P90 – The round went through a solid core door and was already starting to tumble. By the time it reached his bone, the round hit it flat and didn’t just break his arm, it powdered the bone within. Also, knocking two fingers off his gun hand.

Again, I would like to hear (from anyone) who has a CREDIBLE source of information that is able to
discredit this round legitimately. So far, no one has presented me with enough evidence to suggest this round should not be used to save someone’s life. In fact, I am retracting an earlier statement I made before – I would certainly use the Five-seveN system as a concealed weapon and a protective device for my own personal defense.

It’s safe, light, easy to shoot, powerful and it has been field-tested to have a proven performance record time and time again. I wish the departments and the US government would be willing to hand over their independent ballistics test results. I want to see the data that changed the Secret Service’s mind in the face of evidence presented by the experts. Note that the Secret Service WILL give their findings over to law enforcement departments who request the information. This information is confidential. But I’m sure it’s what other LE agencies are basing their judgments on. I’m asking my question again – Who has proof this round is a failure? And if no one can answer this question then I’d like to know – Why is there such a determined and organized effort out to discredit a perfectly good round of ammunition? It does everything FN said it would do. It is a disservice to present damning opinions without researching the actual field tests and people who use it. It is a disservice to FN and the people who represent that factory. But worse, it is a disservice to the 5.7x28, a round of ammunition that has been designed to save lives while causing minimal collateral damage.

But I implore you, do not take my word for what I’ve said. Do your own research. Get out of your labs and talk to the people who trust their lives to this system every day. Talk to the agencies who stepped up and did their own independent ballistics research. If I ask you to take my findings as the truth, then my findings would be no more valuable than an individual posting opinions in the Wound Ballistic Review.



And here is a nice P-90 article: www.trmagonline.com/Spring2003TR/spring2003experienceswiththefnp90.htm

Anyway, the SS-190 and P-90 aren't available to the public, (not legally anyways) so SS-192 and Five-seveN is what we should be talking about. Wait 'till p99guy sees this thread; he could offer alot of info from his experiences with the latter pair.

I'm with you, Winston; its awfully hard to go wrong with 20 rounds, whatever caliber. And with the fragmentation in p99guy's picture + low recoil, it sounds great. While I'm talking about the SS-192, I might as well put down a couple other rumors with these facts:

Fact: The SS-192 will penetrate Level II body armor, and afterwards two thick phone books.
Fact: There have been no exploding Five-seveN's; I heard from someone on Glock Talk who knew 15 different people who owned Five-seveN's and not one had heard of this.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 8:18:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It hits flesh like a .22 WMR, otherwise a pretty good gun. Caliber is, cost aside, just about the best plinking round ever devised.



... You have to be kidding right?

... Muzzle energy is about that of the 45ACP with a purported muzzle velocity at 2345 FPS. With a 20 round mag, one in the pipe and a back-up mag, you'd have an awesome weapon system.


most here seem to agree that the round is a very poor choice for defense.....
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 10:35:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:



... most here seem to agree that the round is a very poor choice for defense.....



... Boy howdy, I'm sure getting mixed signals here. On one hand the cartridge has the energy of a 45ACP and ballistic vest notwithstanding, fragmentation looks impressive. Yet some say it's crap?

...
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 10:51:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 11:18:58 AM EST
Since it is a eaentiallt a .22 on D-bol is it quiet relative to a 9mm or .45a.c.p. . You wre being sarcastic about the Beretta with ball ammos stopping power, right?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 12:09:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It hits flesh like a .22 WMR, otherwise a pretty good gun. Caliber is, cost aside, just about the best plinking round ever devised.



... You have to be kidding right?

... Muzzle energy is about that of the 45ACP with a purported muzzle velocity at 2345 FPS. With a 20 round mag, one in the pipe and a back-up mag, you'd have an awesome weapon system.



To quote Dr Gary Roberts:

Other than being able to perforate body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.


The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.


It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.

The P90 can definitely penetrate body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available? The best uses for the P90 might be for executive protection details where the threat is expected to be wearing body armor and perhaps as a PDW for vehicle crew and pilots.




But then again, Im just tilting at windmills.

You should buy TWO



I just don't get why people refer to this article as the last word. There are just so many statements made in it that make no sense to me. Why on earth does Doc GKR compare 5.7mm to 5.56mm and 6.8mm? This is not a rifle. You cannot chamber 5.56mm or 6.8mm in a pistol, or even a magazine like the P-90's, without it being ridiculously unergonomic. True, the 5.56mm gives better performance, but it also overpenetrates and has thrice the recoil of the 5.7mm. Responding to his last sentence, the threat is not always "expected" to be wearing body armor. Another question from me: why does this article claim that "9mm JHP offers better penetration, but will not overpenetrate"? The P-90 gives 11 to 13.5 inches of penetration. The average human is 9.4 inches thick. True, sometimes a hand or arm may intervene, but the P-90 still gives more penetration than needed. Doc GKR states that the 5.7mm gives insufficient penetration, but it depends what your view of sufficient penetration is. I don't see 11 to 13.5 inches penetration as being inadequate. I may be wrong in some way, but as far as I know the wounds go like this:

9mm FMJ: 9mm wide x 9mm tall
5.7mm FMJ: 5.7mm wide x 5.7mm tall
5.7mm FMJ in tumble: 5.7mm wide x 25.4mm tall

If you looked at my earlier post, you would have seen the picture I posted showing the 5.7mm in gel with 13.5 inches of penetration; it looks like the round was upright throughout nearly the entire travel. Also, Doc GKR claims that the 9mm gives better barrier penetration than the 5.7mm; unless there is something i'm not thinking of, he is wrong. If the 5.7mm will penetrate body armor so well (IIIA at 200 meters), then why wouldn't it penetrate barriers? The 5.7mm has a semi-sharp steel tip and it travels at 2346 fps. If momentum is the sole factor in barrier penetration, why won't the 9mm penetrate body armor like or better than5.7mm? Please tell me what i'm forgetting about that would make the round-nose 1,000 fps 9mm so much better at penetrating.

No, Mattl, it is not quiet at all. Supposedly about as loud as a .223, according to people who own it. And Lumpy was not the one talking about the M882, Doc GKR was. What really cracks me up is how Doc GKR asks "what will the P-90 do that is not already available?"; why doesn't he ask himself? The 5.7mm's characteristics were defined by the US Army, not FN.

Here is why the P-90 stands by itself:

No recoil
Lightweight
Extremely high capacity
Works on armored opponents
Flat trajectory for its intended purpose (again, it was NOT intended to be a front-line weapon, we are talking about a tiny sub-machine gun and pistol)
Fully ambidextrous
Extremely compact
Performance similar to 9mm JHP (I'll get to this later)

The Five-seveN is the companion pistol to the P-90 and shares most of the above attributes. Also, it might seem logical to hate this round if it had given poor performance in a shooting, but such has not yet been the case. There have been three or four shootings with the P-90 and all have been quick one-shot stops. There has been only one human and a pitbull shot with a Five-seveN and both were stopped immediately as well.

I know you'll hate this reason to defend the gun, but i'll say it anyway: the P-90 has been adopted in over 25 countries as of 2003. Users include the Dutch BBE and KCT, French GIGN, US Secret Service, and Federal Protective Service. Proof here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451&page=1

Here are some excerpts from an article by another user of the P-90:

The Houston, TX, Police Department was the first American law enforcement agency to deploy with the FN P90 submachine gun on its SWAT team. The first time I saw a P90, I couldn’t help but notice how unique and interesting it looked. It was fun to shoot and no one could argue about the innovations the engineers at Fabrique National in Belgium had featured on this weapon. The fact remained, however, that the 5.7x28mm cartridge was unproven. We had all the energy data and gelatin shots, but had no documentation on what the round would do on a real human body. It may sound morbid, but in the tactical world the proof is in the real deal. That missing element was always in the back of our minds. Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to. I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. The SS190 version of the 5.7mm cartridge uses a 31-grain, steel jacketed, steel tipped, aluminum core bullet. It is capable of 2350fps and it can defeat level IIIA body armor at 200 meters. The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon I’m talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

The above in quotes comes from my previously posted article. Think what you want about this round, but when you downtalk it, you are to a lesser extent downtalking the many elite units who use it.

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 1:05:05 PM EST
My 2 cents, which is all I have left after having just bought one: It's big, plastic, and fun. Too big for a carry piece. Plinks like a .22 magnum. Expensive ammo. Good candidate to replace a .22 for first-time shooters.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 1:13:49 PM EST
It is purpose built...

I would purchase one if I could get a P90 as a companion weapon.

MT
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 1:30:55 PM EST
... Thanks all for the fantastic insight. I look at it this way, I haven't added too many nice pistols to my collection since the '94 AWB. Primarily because of the limited magazine capacities. The FN Five-seveN® is the first, real pistol making a paradigm shift because of the sunset a couple weeks ago.

... I drove over to Scottsdale Gun Club today to look at one.

... Pros: They are not big nor bulky. They appeared to be well engineered (that means a lot to me). They are light, the rounds are tiny and cute, Picatinny rail. Big tactical-glove trigger guard. Ergonomically correct grip. Sights OK.

... Cons: Moderately expensive.The slide is not all steel, the outer "shell" is a polymer. Not sure exactly why they did that except perhaps for weight reduction. I'm not used to affecting pistol safeties with my index finger , and the $39 (20) round magazines on on back order. Puny looking barrel.

... Oh well, I think I'll buy one anyway. For the novelty if nothing else.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 1:46:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 1:59:42 PM EST

American Rifleman, Jan 2000, p. 4) from Dr. Marvin Fackler:

"The article 'FN's FiveseveN System (No.v/Dec. 1999 p.40) seriously misrepresents the wounding capacity of the 31-gr. P90 bullet. Claiming it "produces a wound cavity that is similar to that of the 5.56 mm NATO ammunition is an absurd exaggeration. The 31-gr. P90 bullet has only half the weight of the M16A2 bullet - and its velocity is about 1000 f.p.s. less. (The reference was intended to convey that it is an FMJ design, not that it has equal energy and wounding characteristics to the 5.56x45 mm cartridge. - The Eds).

The amount of tissue disruption propduced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. And the P90 produces a temporary cavity of only about 8cm diameter - smaller than that of an expanding 9mm handgun bullet. Most of the P90's bullet's wounding potential is wasted in producing a temporary cavity that is too small to be a reliable wounding mechanism. The P90 bullet doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet.

The light recoil of the P90 should hardly come as a surprise: The momentum and kinetic energy of its bullets are only about half that of the .22 Hornet bullet. The P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the .22 WMR bullet. The laws of physics cannot be denied - minimal recoil is inconsistent with maximal tissue disruption.

For the military, where any wound is often all that is required to cause an enemy soldier to leave the battlefield, perhaps this tiny P90 bullet is OK. Law enforcement officers are often faced with armed violent criminals at close range. In that scenario, a bullet capable of disrupting a significant amount of tissue is needed: One must incapacitate a criminal, a minor wound will not suffice. By no stretch of the imagination is the P90 bullet adequate for that task.

References for further reading in the Wound Ballistics Review are: Vol. 3, No. 3, 1998 (pp. 36-37) 'Corrections on the Wound Ballistics of the current FN P90 bullet'; Vol. 3, No. 1, 1997 (pp. 44-45) "more on the bizarre FN P90'; and Vol. 1., No. 1, 1991 (p. 46) 'Description of the first generation P90.' These may be obtained from the IWBA by calling (310) 640-6065, or its website at www.IWBA.com. (http://www.IWBA.com.)

Marvin L. Fackler, MD, FACS,
President, Int'l Wound Ballistics Ass'n.

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 2:01:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
The reason it has low LEO sales is because it's a very poor-performing caliber. Yes, it will penetrate vests, but the wounds it creates are in the .22LR class. LEOs have had several failures to stop due to carrying this gun as a standard sidearm, and most have gone back to real calibers.

The *only* reason the P90 is even remotely effective is because it has a longer barrel, which gives higher velocity, and you can put a nice 5-8 round burst into someone quickly. The Five-seveN obviously can't, and is thus almost totally ineffective.

-Troy




Originally Posted By Troy:
Here's a post from Dr. Gary Roberts, one of the top experts in the field of terminal ballistic research and testing, and who is employed by the US military for that purpose. Note the reference to various documents from most of the top researchers in the field.

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000050.html

---

Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.

---

There's another post on that topic from a police officer whose department came to the same conclusion after doing their own independant testing. And if you're willing to read back through several years worth of posts, you'll find the pictures and other test data to go along with it.

The research has been done, and the data conclusive.

-Troy

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:00:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:01:47 PM EST by nf9648]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I can make it perfectly clear on the performance of the round.

We've been discussing for several years now the search for improvement on the terminal performance of the 5.56mm round in military use.

A 62gr 5.56mm bullet at 3100fps isnt giving impressive performance according to some end users, yet a 31gr bullet at 2130fps IS going to give good performance?

HOW????



As someone who has used 5.56 in combat within the last year, I can say that it is more than capable of doing its job, thats with both M16A2 and M249. I havent used the 5.7 on anything alive, but Ill make sure to shoot something with it if Im not in the field during hunting season this year.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:39:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:55:28 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:42:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:50:41 PM EST by innocent_bystander]
More here.

Remember the 22 mag Grendel pistols.


ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=36&t=10206
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:05:17 PM EST
Ill never see a 6.8 in my unit because Im not special, but I do plan on buying a upper chambered in it for the house. I never said 6.8 isnt a good idea, I will argue the fact that 5.56 is a perfectly good caliber for the military, its been proven since vietnam and worked for me just fine.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:24:27 PM EST
Very good thread. Ill be following this one.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:40:08 PM EST
Thats one UGLY ass gun.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:57:21 PM EST
Get the original squirt gun.

The Grendel P30 .22 WMR. Uses a 30 round magazine.

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 9:17:21 PM EST
I think the only solution here is for me to get one, and then wander around Philly late at night.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 4:51:20 AM EST
Absolut, I will address your posts below:

1. I have already read this article from Dr Fackler and it doesn't really bring anything new to the table that is not mentioned in the Doc GKR article.
2. The post from Troy is complete misinformation. Neither the P-90 nor the Five-seveN have had poor LEO sales -- I will get to this later. LEO's have NOT had failures to stop with this round. There has been a friendly fire incident with the Five-seveN, but NO failures to stop. If you were to ask Troy right now about it, I'm quite sure he would tell you there have been no FTS's. An FN rep in a old thread a while back denounced this rumor privately with Troy. I can show you the post if you don't believe me. Troy also claims that "the only reason the P-90 is effective is because of burst capability". I have two reasons to believe that Troy posted this without thinking it out first. ONE: the few shootings with the P-90 have been one-shot stops. TWO: who cares if it takes a burst of 5.7mm's to kill? This weapon holds fifty rounds, and the Five-seveN holds twenty. Obviously, in a shooting you shoot until the threat has been stopped. That goes with any gun. A P-90 can afford a 5-8 burst if it needs it. You'd still have 42-45 rounds left in the magazine. According to Troy's "poor" P-90 performance, you would have enough firepower with one P-90 magazine to kill about 10 people. BUT, it has not taken 5-8 rounds in shootings.
3. Nothing new. Lumpy already posted this article.

Here is the list of all the departments using either the P-90 or Five-seveN:

Houston, TX PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Salt Lake City, PD
MO St Hwy Patrol
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Edmond, OK PD
Little Rock, AR PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Burmingham , AL PD
Benton County, AR Sheriffs Dept
Bentonville, AR PD
Belleview, NE PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach County, FL Sheriffs Dept
US Dept of Immigration & Naturalization
Richland County, SC PD
Sioux Falls, SD SWAT
Batesburg/Leesville, SC PD
Davis County, UT Sheriffs Dept
Pasco County, FL Sheriffs Dept
Zephyr Hills, FL PD
Charleston County, SC Sheriffs Dept
Oakdale, MN PD
Lexington, SC PD
Anderson County, SC Sheriffs Dept
Washoe County, NV Sheriffs Dept
Whiteoak Borough, PA PD
City of Daleville, AL
Greenwood County, SC Sheriffs Dept
Camden, SC PD
Dallas, TX PD
Austin, TX PD
Slidell, LA PD
Davidson, NC PD
Duluth, GA PD

It is current as of 2003. I need to confess: I just hate it how people condemn a round just because it isn't high-caliber. If caliber was the deciding factor in wounding ability, we would be using .45 in our rifles instead of 5.56mm. I'm not saying the 5.7mm is "all that", but I AM saying that you should keep an open mind when there is evidence of its possible potential. You just need to get your head clear of two myths: "caliber always equates to effectiveness", and "change is always bad".

I'm almost sure this post will be greeted with the same ballistics articles.

Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:46:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By DmL5:
2. The post from Troy is complete misinformation. Neither the P-90 nor the Five-seveN have had poor LEO sales -- I will get to this later. LEO's have NOT had failures to stop with this round. There has been a friendly fire incident with the Five-seveN, but NO failures to stop. If you were to ask Troy right now about it, I'm quite sure he would tell you there have been no FTS's. An FN rep in a old thread a while back denounced this rumor privately with Troy. I can show you the post if you don't believe me. Troy also claims that "the only reason the P-90 is effective is because of burst capability". I have two reasons to believe that Troy posted this without thinking it out first. ONE: the few shootings with the P-90 have been one-shot stops. TWO: who cares if it takes a burst of 5.7mm's to kill? This weapon holds fifty rounds, and the Five-seveN holds twenty. Obviously, in a shooting you shoot until the threat has been stopped. That goes with any gun. A P-90 can afford a 5-8 burst if it needs it. You'd still have 42-45 rounds left in the magazine. According to Troy's "poor" P-90 performance, you would have enough firepower with one P-90 magazine to kill about 10 people. BUT, it has not taken 5-8 rounds in shootings.


these are some big accusations to make......are you in any way affiliated with FN?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 9:51:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 9:52:49 AM EST by Winston_Wolf]
... A fellow ARCOMMER and I went into a local watering hole last night to ogle womenz, swig a couple beers and eat some buffalo wings.

... This subject came up and he made a profound observation about the conundrum of buying the pistol with all its controversy on ARFCOM. His point was, with the relative newness of the pistol and cartridge, just how would I know about its performance without first-hand experience with one.

... Excellent point. Buy one. Put her through a battery of my own tests, personally appreciate how it handles at the range and the ergonomics of carry and concealment.

... Then, if perchance I felt it didn't meet my requirements I could always sell it. At least I would then feel a bit more qualified to comment on its performance from firsthand knowledge. Simple.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:26:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 10:33:18 AM EST by innocent_bystander]
WW,

Do you need some suggestions for the terminal bullet performance tests?

Like names of people to shoot.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 12:03:13 PM EST

these are some big accusations to make......are you in any way affiliated with FN?


No. What makes you ask me that? I realize it sounds like I know all the statistics, etc like an FN rep would, but if you take the time you could find all and more of the information i've posted, such as who uses the guns, etc. (Some of it even posted on this site a long time ago) My argument comes from my own observations of this subject. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I just found Troy's post misleading and inaccurate when examined in greater detail. I don't think its too big an accusation to accuse someone of posting information that wasn't well thought out. Troy seems to be the one making bold comments: a year or two ago he and a few others were threatened with lawsuits by FN for comments like the one you posted from him. Don't be too quick to quote someone without first thinking out and researching what it is they're claiming.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 12:05:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 12:06:01 PM EST by DmL5]

Originally Posted By _bystander:
Get the original squirt gun.

The Grendel P30 .22 WMR. Uses a 30 round magazine.

images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976492966-1.jpg



How do they fit in 30 rounds? Three rows of ammo?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 1:23:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By DmL5:

these are some big accusations to make......are you in any way affiliated with FN?


No. What makes you ask me that.

b/c almost every post you've made here has been promoting or defending the Five-Seven or P90...
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 1:40:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By DmL5:
Absolut, I will address your posts below:

1. I have already read this article from Dr Fackler and it doesn't really bring anything new to the table that is not mentioned in the Doc GKR article.
2. The post from Troy is complete misinformation. Neither the P-90 nor the Five-seveN have had poor LEO sales -- I will get to this later. LEO's have NOT had failures to stop with this round. There has been a friendly fire incident with the Five-seveN, but NO failures to stop. If you were to ask Troy right now about it, I'm quite sure he would tell you there have been no FTS's. An FN rep in a old thread a while back denounced this rumor privately with Troy. I can show you the post if you don't believe me. Troy also claims that "the only reason the P-90 is effective is because of burst capability". I have two reasons to believe that Troy posted this without thinking it out first. ONE: the few shootings with the P-90 have been one-shot stops. TWO: who cares if it takes a burst of 5.7mm's to kill? This weapon holds fifty rounds, and the Five-seveN holds twenty. Obviously, in a shooting you shoot until the threat has been stopped. That goes with any gun. A P-90 can afford a 5-8 burst if it needs it. You'd still have 42-45 rounds left in the magazine. According to Troy's "poor" P-90 performance, you would have enough firepower with one P-90 magazine to kill about 10 people. BUT, it has not taken 5-8 rounds in shootings.
3. Nothing new. Lumpy already posted this article.

Here is the list of all the departments using either the P-90 or Five-seveN:

Houston, TX PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Salt Lake City, PD
MO St Hwy Patrol
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Edmond, OK PD
Little Rock, AR PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Burmingham , AL PD
Benton County, AR Sheriffs Dept
Bentonville, AR PD
Belleview, NE PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach County, FL Sheriffs Dept
US Dept of Immigration & Naturalization
Richland County, SC PD
Sioux Falls, SD SWAT
Batesburg/Leesville, SC PD
Davis County, UT Sheriffs Dept
Pasco County, FL Sheriffs Dept
Zephyr Hills, FL PD
Charleston County, SC Sheriffs Dept
Oakdale, MN PD
Lexington, SC PD
Anderson County, SC Sheriffs Dept
Washoe County, NV Sheriffs Dept
Whiteoak Borough, PA PD
City of Daleville, AL
Greenwood County, SC Sheriffs Dept
Camden, SC PD
Dallas, TX PD
Austin, TX PD
Slidell, LA PD
Davidson, NC PD
Duluth, GA PD

It is current as of 2003. I need to confess: I just hate it how people condemn a round just because it isn't high-caliber. If caliber was the deciding factor in wounding ability, we would be using .45 in our rifles instead of 5.56mm. I'm not saying the 5.7mm is "all that", but I AM saying that you should keep an open mind when there is evidence of its possible potential. You just need to get your head clear of two myths: "caliber always equates to effectiveness", and "change is always bad".

I'm almost sure this post will be greeted with the same ballistics articles.




They are getting rid of theirs, but I think it is due to the cost of ammo.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 1:50:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 1:55:29 PM EST by DmL5]

b/c almost every post you've made here has been promoting or defending the Five-Seven or P90...


Thats not entirely true; yes, I have stepped up to defend it/them several times, but never promoted them here AFAIK. I can't help it -- people here are talking about these guns all the time now and its a controversial subject. I see 5.7mm threads here constantly and I haven't seen one in which the guns were not illogically put down. Every now and then i've got to post my 2 cents.

Thats what winston asked for.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:03:45 PM EST
Ballisticly the 5.7x28mm from a pistol IS about the same as a 22Mag. FROM A RIFLE. From a pistol the .22Mag. gets about 1600 fps the 5.7 gets 2100 fps, hardly the same as a 22mag. I think the general concept behind the 5.7 is a good one if they can get the bullets to fragment 90% of the time. It would be devastating and at the same time because of low recoil and lack of thru and thru penetration it would also be a "safe" weapon for someone with a CCW or a LEO conserned with the welfare of inocent bystandars. Buy what you want, if you've got the money go for it, I'd like to have one someday. I'm waiting for the Government Model(same model as used by the Seceret Service) to hit the market.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:23:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 2:26:04 PM EST by DmL5]

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ballisticly the 5.7x28mm from a pistol IS about the same as a 22Mag. FROM A RIFLE. From a pistol the .22Mag. gets about 1600 fps the 5.7 gets 2100 fps, hardly the same as a 22mag.



That sounds possible, but there are a couple more differences. The 5.7mm is made to maximize damage during "tumble" by having a 1-inch long projectile, and p99guy's test showed that it tumbles very consistently. The other difference is that 5.7mm, even SS192, will pierce body armor and hard objects such as car doors much better.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:35:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By DmL5:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ballisticly the 5.7x28mm from a pistol IS about the same as a 22Mag. FROM A RIFLE. From a pistol the .22Mag. gets about 1600 fps the 5.7 gets 2100 fps, hardly the same as a 22mag.



That sounds possible, but there are a couple more differences. The 5.7mm is made to maximize damage during "tumble" by having a 1-inch long projectile, and p99guy's test showed that it tumbles very consistently. The other difference is that 5.7mm, even SS192, will pierce body armor and hard objects such as car doors much better.



My point was to all these "ballistics experts" that keep saying that "it's just a 22Mag.". Well, yes and no. If you're talking about vel. from a rifle length barrel for the Mag. vs a pistol length barrel for the 5.7 then yes, it is the same vel. but when you talk pistol vs pistol there's a very big difference. Also, as you have pointed out, the projectile design is very different from the bullet used in a 22 Mag. I like the idea of the 5.7x28mm and can't wait to save up the money to pick one up. I'd not feel a bit "under gunned" carring one for my CCW gun. In fact, with a 20 round mag and another in reserve I'd feel real comfortable about carring it. P99guy has proven that this little round can do some real damage, much more then any 22 Mag that I've ever seen so we really need to drop that comparison because it's really getting old.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 5:56:47 PM EST
I concur with the last statement, if there should be any argument it should be against the round it was designed to replace, the military issue 9mm ball ammo used in every military issue beretta and sig in the defense of this nation.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:51:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I can make it perfectly clear on the performance of the round.

We've been discussing for several years now the search for improvement on the terminal performance of the 5.56mm round in military use.

A 62gr 5.56mm bullet at 3100fps isnt giving impressive performance according to some end users, yet a 31gr bullet at 2130fps IS going to give good performance?

HOW????



Shhh!

It is magic!!

And legend!!!

Don't question it!!!
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 8:53:54 AM EST
I have this gun and love it. If the peoples Republix of NJ allowed for CCW it would be my carry gun. It ticks me off when all of these so called experts judge the gun without even firing it. As for the OLD debate as to its penatration. Well... Once zombies start to walk the earth I will let you know.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:56:13 PM EST
... Got mine in today, cute little gun.

... Now if I could just find inexpensive ammo!



Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:03:45 PM EST
Seems like $16.50 to $17.00 is about the best ammo prices I've found so far.
JR
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 12:30:31 AM EST
So what I'm gathering about this round is that it's both the best and the worst ammo on the market, that both lives up to and completely undershoots its own hype. It is better, and worse, than 5.56 nato, and would be a rival or not even compare to the lethality of a common .45.

Always a pleasure to mingle amongst the algonquin round table of ballistic geniuses here on ARFcom. Carry on, top men, carry on.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:55:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 7:57:12 AM EST by DmL5]

Originally Posted By swingset:
So what I'm gathering about this round is that it's both the best and the worst ammo on the market, that both lives up to and completely undershoots its own hype. It is better, and worse, than 5.56 nato, and would be a rival or not even compare to the lethality of a common .45.

Always a pleasure to mingle amongst the algonquin round table of ballistic geniuses here on ARFcom. Carry on, top men, carry on.




Nobody is claiming that its the best, nor are they claiming that its better than 5.56mm, AFAIK. But there is no doubting its potential after reading this recent post from another member:



As one who has actually used the P90 for tactical operations I can say that it is a devastating round despite its small size. From our initial training, I recall the fact that no one has survived being shot by the P90.



One cannot (logically) argue with people who have extensive experience with it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:08:37 AM EST
anybody selling dies/tips for reloading it?
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