Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/8/2007 6:56:49 AM EST
What would you chose to put center of mass on your target. .45 ACP FMJ of your choice or 9mm HP of your choice?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:04:38 AM EST
9mm HP.

A Winchester Ranger-T 127gr to be specific.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:08:11 AM EST
I wouldn't feel undergunned with either.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:09:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:10:41 AM EST by AEA]
You may not feel undergunned, ....but you better be ready to put more than one round there.

Just ask our boys in Iraq......every one that has a chance goes for the .45 ACP.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:13:06 AM EST
Yes, but they cant shoot HP's either.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:20:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By AEA:
You may not feel undergunned, ....but you better be ready to put more than one round there.

Just ask our boys in Iraq......every one that has a chance goes for the .45 ACP.


Yeah, they can't use HP...big difference...
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:18:20 AM EST
I'll take either in any kind of bullet any day over nothing. People are into splitting ballistic hairs too much. Somebody just shot himself through his leg with a 9mm HP and it didn't look like it opened up at all to me. I still could care less. Keep shooting until the threat is done. With whatever you got. Then if you are out of bullets, you have a knife or use your pistol as a club. I don't presume the bullet to be the determining factor.

That's just my thinking.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:28:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By AEA:
You may not feel undergunned, ....but you better be ready to put more than one round there.

Just ask our boys in Iraq......every one that has a chance goes for the .45 ACP.


Not a scientific or empiracal statement.

Independent testing has show that the quality hollow points create similiar wound effects between 9mm HP, 40 HP, and 45 HP.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:35:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 9:37:09 AM EST by --bullseye--]
You made a key distinction here- Which would you rather put center of mass on your target.

Either one will kill them just as dead if you hit COM. It's ALL about shot placement. Yes, in a test between .45ACP hollow point vs. a 9mm hollow point, the .45 will give you a little more tissue damage, but I'm not so sure on the .45 Ball ammo vs. 9mm HP. That would be a close one. It doesn't really matter if you hit them COM though. They are going down either way.


I personally would take the 9mm because-

1. I shoot much more accurately with 9mm. This is all related to personal preference and what you have experience with. It is pretty safe to say though that 9mm at the very least has faster follow up shots.

2. I would have 14 extra rounds with the 9mm, as compared to the 6 that would be left in the .45ACP. (Yes, I know there are .45s out there with a greater mag capacity, but there are 9mm mags that hold more too.)
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:03:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By DernHumpus:
.45 ACP FMJ of your choice or 9mm HP of your choice?


Why?

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:19:39 AM EST
9mm HP
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:30:16 AM EST
Depends if I put my 1911, G19 or Kahr PM9 on that AM. In other words both would work just fine.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:47:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 10:51:20 AM EST by Chris_1522]
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 12:19:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By JJREA:
I'll take either in any kind of bullet any day over nothing. People are into splitting ballistic hairs too much. Somebody just shot himself through his leg with a 9mm HP and it didn't look like it opened up at all to me. I still could care less. Keep shooting until the threat is done. With whatever you got. Then if you are out of bullets, you have a knife or use your pistol as a club. I don't presume the bullet to be the determining factor.

That's just my thinking.


+1 Best response right here.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:06:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
9mm HP for sure.

The .45 and 9mm, both in FMJ form, push flesh aside and the size of the wound track from one to the other is pretty much insignificant.

But in HP, the jagged edges tear tissue. Additionally, a decent 9mm HP will expand from .6" or so.

Would you rather create a .6" ragged hole or a .45" "smooth" hole that's going to shrink back down as soon as the bullet passes?

Now when we look at .45 HP to 9mm HP, things change a bit.

ETA: But still, as others have said, placement is key. The purpose of a bullet is to put a hole in something important. Do that, and you're set. Don't, and you won't get a stop. Dosen't matter how big it is.



This is not necessarily true. Some 9mm FMJ's may yaw. And some .45 FMJ may also too. You're statement excludes hitting bone and deflecting. Which would be a real possiblility in my opinion. But I believe even if there isn't bone it may yaw. Because the heavier end is on the rear and the larger mass wants to be first. I still hold to the fact that the ballistics in a handgun are not the number one component of stopping an aggressor. I think there have been enough shootings to prove that. I believe it is far down on the list. I may be disagreeing with experts with that attitude. But I stand to it by all the info I've gone over through the years. And I can say this with confidence that I disagree with your theory on what a bullet does.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:07:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 3:10:34 PM EST by JJREA]

Originally Posted By Blacksnake:

Originally Posted By JJREA:
I'll take either in any kind of bullet any day over nothing. People are into splitting ballistic hairs too much. Somebody just shot himself through his leg with a 9mm HP and it didn't look like it opened up at all to me. I still could care less. Keep shooting until the threat is done. With whatever you got. Then if you are out of bullets, you have a knife or use your pistol as a club. I don't presume the bullet to be the determining factor.

That's just my thinking.


+1 Best response right here.


Thank you. You are in the minority because most on this sight have flamed the you know what out of me for even suggesting a 9mm FMJ is OK for self defense. I realize it may not be the BEST in every situation. But there are some things it does that hollow points don't. Like penetrate further. Some may say too much. Oh well. I'm not saying it might not be. But I still stand by my belief. There's no proving that whatever HP a person choosed to carry will penetrate enough in 100% of situations either. But again, I'll take either caliber in any kind of bullet over nothing.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:21:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By Blacksnake:

Originally Posted By JJREA:
I'll take either in any kind of bullet any day over nothing. People are into splitting ballistic hairs too much. Somebody just shot himself through his leg with a 9mm HP and it didn't look like it opened up at all to me. I still could care less. Keep shooting until the threat is done. With whatever you got. Then if you are out of bullets, you have a knife or use your pistol as a club. I don't presume the bullet to be the determining factor.

That's just my thinking.


+1 Best response right here.


Thank you. You are in the minority because most on this sight have flamed the you know what out of me for even suggesting a 9mm FMJ is OK for self defense. I realize it may not be the BEST in every situation. But there are some things it does that hollow points don't. Like penetrate further. Some may say too much. Oh well. I'm not saying it might not be. But I still stand by my belief. There's no proving that whatever HP a person choosed to carry will penetrate enough in 100% of situations either. But again, I'll take either caliber in any kind of bullet over nothing.


I have carried 9's, .40's, .45's and .357's with a number of different bullets (HP, FMJ, LSWC, Frangible, etc.) over the years and never felt under-gunned with any of them or got all wrapped up in what is the latest "ballistic wonder ultra fang baby seal killer round". Most modern autos hold enough bullets that to fret over 9 vs. .40 vs. .45 is a waste of time for the average street Joe, IMO.

Like you basically said, all beat the hell out of a sharp stick!
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:58:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By --bullseye--:
You made a key distinction here- Which would you rather put center of mass on your target.

Either one will kill them just as dead if you hit COM.


Fail.

CNS = guarantee kill

COM = not so much.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:44:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 4:59:54 PM EST by --bullseye--]

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By --bullseye--:
You made a key distinction here- Which would you rather put center of mass on your target.

Either one will kill them just as dead if you hit COM.


Fail.

CNS = guarantee kill

COM = not so much.



CNS is a guaranteed instant kill

COM is a guaranteed kill, it could just take a number of seconds (not sure exactly how many) for your brain to shut down from lack of blood.


People use "center of mass" too vaguely I think. Center of mass means exactly that, the exact center. People who get all their shots on a paper plate sized circle around the center of a silhouette and think that is the persons center of mass are wrong IMO. Yes, you still have a good chance of killing them, but a lung shot is not a guaranteed kill. They are aiming for exact center mass, just not hitting it.

The orange part is what I think of as COM. It is smaller than a paper plate for sure.



Guess where that orange part is? Over your heart. An exact COM hit will smash through your sternum and obliterate your heart. That will most certainly kill you.

Sorry for the semantics debate.


ETA: oh, and my post is full of win

ETA2: Your heart is COM in my book.-



And don't try and argue a heart shot isn't lethal.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:49:51 PM EST
No, but the orange looks a little low to be over the heart. Looks more like where the Upper GI and Chest cavity meet.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:36:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 6:39:57 PM EST by --bullseye--]

Originally Posted By JJREA:
No, but the orange looks a little low to be over the heart. Looks more like where the Upper GI and Chest cavity meet.


I don't have any experience with that specific target, that was one of the first silhouettes I came across. I have some white and blue silhouettes that I have held against myself and the COM ring on those corresponds nicely with my heart. The bottom of those silhouettes isn't necessarily the waist. You need to go from the head down. My reason for posting that picture was to show the size I was talking about. I guess I shouldn't have speculated as to the relation of that targets center ring to the location of a persons heart without inspecting it first hand.

The point I was trying to make was that a well placed COM shot (a shot to the heart or one of the many major arteries immediately surrounding the heart) will kill someone.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:49:50 PM EST
Hmmm . . . >.6 inch permanent cavity versus .45" permanent cavity (both "deep enough")--given those choices I'd take the 9mm. I'd rather have Winchester LE RA45T, though.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:50:26 PM EST
Now I know why Zhukov drinks too much and kicks his dog.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:10:48 PM EST
9mikemike rules
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 11:02:29 PM EST
.45 Ball right in the breadbasket.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 12:28:55 AM EST
Why can't I have a 45 HP? Either way 45 for life.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 12:43:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 12:44:21 AM EST by Hebrew_Battle_Rifle]
I can carry any sidearm that I want and use any ammo that I want. I carry a 1911 chambered in 45ACP loaded with 200 gr Semi Wad cutters. I have seen what this load does to flesh and I am confident that I am well armed.

I will always, if necessary, choose a 45ACP over a 9mm.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:34:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:22:56 AM EST
Well, as usual I'm being hypocritical. I said people split hairs too much, and I'm in the thick of it. But only to explain why I choose not to worry about the exact kind of pistol bullet to use. I was just disagreeing with your part about it zinging right through and closing back up. Although I'm sure that happens from time to time too. I just don't see it as an everytime kind of thing.

Did you see that post about the fireman guy shooting himself through his leg? I would've expected a larger exit wound with a hollow point. Especially at close range. But it didn't hit any bone. Either way, sounds like we agree despite the other posts.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:49:23 AM EST
whichever one hits the target
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:53:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By AEA:
You may not feel undergunned, ....but you better be ready to put more than one round there.

Just ask our boys in Iraq......every one that has a chance goes for the .45 ACP.
They dont use HP's in Iraq. A 9mm witha good Hp's will do more damage then a 45 hardball. There is some stats on this out there on the web.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:09:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:43:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4-TUNA:

Originally Posted By AEA:
You may not feel undergunned, ....but you better be ready to put more than one round there.

Just ask our boys in Iraq......every one that has a chance goes for the .45 ACP.
They dont use HP's in Iraq. A 9mm witha good Hp's will do more damage then a 45 hardball. There is some stats on this out there on the web.


Who is they? I've heard different. I'm sure not all the time but nevertheless. I don't think we can make broad statements like this without being partly wrong.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:58:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By DernHumpus:
What would you chose to put center of mass on your target. .45 ACP FMJ of your choice or 9mm HP of your choice?


With that choice, I'll take the 45 (E)FMJ!
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:25:35 PM EST
"They" is US military. With FEW exceptions US military uses FMJ.
(one exception is embassy guards, but of course they are not regular troops)
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:09:27 PM EST
.45 FMJ versus 9mm HP

is the same arguement as

Stock Mustang versus Super-tuned Civic

Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:19:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By M4-TUNA:

Originally Posted By AEA:
You may not feel undergunned, ....but you better be ready to put more than one round there.

Just ask our boys in Iraq......every one that has a chance goes for the .45 ACP.
They dont use HP's in Iraq. A 9mm witha good Hp's will do more damage then a 45 hardball. There is some stats on this out there on the web.


Who is they? I've heard different. I'm sure not all the time but nevertheless. I don't think we can make broad statements like this without being partly wrong.
Um read what I posted the other poster said boys in Iraq(that would be they).
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:49:55 AM EST
45 for sure. Lot of hollow points don't expand. Bigger bullet, more damage. I once had to tell a victim who had been shot 5 times with a 9mm to sit down, calm down, and wait for the ambulance. He lived. Most shots were pass throughs, 1 face, three in the back, (one had stopped at the shoulder blade) and one in the ass, stopped by the pelvis. One lung collapsed.

Don't get me wrong, the guy was f*cked up, but he could have fired a gun for a long time. Would a 45 have made a difference? Hard to say. People react differently to being shot.
Top Top