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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/14/2005 6:36:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2005 6:38:44 PM EDT by ManiacRat461]
What are your opinions on the .357 Sig, I went Springfield XD shopping today and they had one that was very nice, it's a 5in Tactical model. I have no experience with the .357 Sig, is it a good caliber? Recoil? Performance? I am kind of leery, the ammo is kinda hard to find down here, and I don't want it to eventually fade our of everyone's minds and make it even harder to get like the 10mm (which is not carried by anyone around here at all). Is it a good combination of 9mm and .40? How long has it been around also, never paid any attention to it at all as it never interested me until now.

Just curious what you guys think, never had one, I have .40s, .45s, .38/.357 mags etc but not a .357 Sig, kinda liked it just cause I don't have one. They also had same model in a .40 that was od green framed which also was luring me.
Link Posted: 6/14/2005 6:48:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2005 6:50:18 PM EDT by Mattl]
Buy the .40S&W and get the Sig barrel later. .40S&W is cheaper $8-12 to shoot and harder to control handling a .357Sig is easier but $14+ per box.

Performance wise magnum matching ballisticly. Same speed same PSI on ompact, easier to control and offers superior capacity.


ETA: Buy a Glock or Sig, not a welfare contract labeled Croat gun at 2X the price.
Link Posted: 6/14/2005 6:57:13 PM EDT
Thanks, no interest in a Glock, ugly as living hell and very uncomfortable. I owned a Glock 23 for literally 2 days. Bought it, shot it the next day and sold it the same day to a friend who liked it. I'll take a look at the Sigs and see what they have to offer.
Link Posted: 6/14/2005 9:27:37 PM EDT
I honestly have never understood the .357 SIG. It has the magazine capacity of a .40 but makes 9mm sized holes. It meets the minimum 12" penetration depth requirement like the 9mm but does so with additional recoil and decreased capacity. Hollow points expand to the same diameter as the 9mm as well. It doesn't produce enough energy to cause damage outside of its permanent crush cavity so I guess I don't understand what its purpose is.
Link Posted: 6/14/2005 9:40:31 PM EDT
I think the Barrel change opiton applies on Springfields still. Get the .40
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 3:20:01 AM EDT
My Glock 31 pushes an Air Marshal issue 125gr GoldDot at 1400fps. CorBon has a 125gr going 1425fps. Recoil isn't THAT hard to get used to, it has a VERY fast slide velocity. No more muzzle flip than my G17 shooting Win Value Pk but it does have more rearward recoil, I can't feel the difference between my G17 shooting military M882 vs my G31 with the 125gr GoldDot.

Saying a .357 SIG has no more power than a 9x19 is like saying a 10mm has no more power than a .40S&W. I mean both are .40"/10mm bullets and velocity doesn't matter right? (for those that don't know it the .40S&W was designed from the 10mm, this was after the FBI started downloading the 10mm to 950fps) if you like heavy and slow why not just carry a .45ACP? Why reinvent the wheel?

The .357SIG is doing what it was designed to do, which was to replicate what the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum was back in the day but do it in an auto pistol which a higher round count that a 6 shot only back then revolver. Of course the .357 Mag is a better all around cartridge than the .357SIG mainly because of cartridge capacity. So of course the .357Mag can be loaded WAY heavier if needed. Where as the .357SIG really just shines with 125gr bullets.

I only see a need for a .40 when used for IPSC to make 'major'. What can a .40S&W do that a .45ACP can't do with less recoil in the same power factor? YMMV.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 6:13:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gotm4:
My Glock 31 pushes an Air Marshal issue 125gr GoldDot at 1400fps. CorBon has a 125gr going 1425fps. Recoil isn't THAT hard to get used to, it has a VERY fast slide velocity. No more muzzle flip than my G17 shooting Win Value Pk but it does have more rearward recoil, I can't feel the difference between my G17 shooting military M882 vs my G31 with the 125gr GoldDot.

Saying a .357 SIG has no more power than a 9x19 is like saying a 10mm has no more power than a .40S&W. I mean both are .40"/10mm bullets and velocity doesn't matter right? (for those that don't know it the .40S&W was designed from the 10mm, this was after the FBI started downloading the 10mm to 950fps) if you like heavy and slow why not just carry a .45ACP? Why reinvent the wheel?

The .357SIG is doing what it was designed to do, which was to replicate what the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum was back in the day but do it in an auto pistol which a higher round count that a 6 shot only back then revolver. Of course the .357 Mag is a better all around cartridge than the .357SIG mainly because of cartridge capacity. So of course the .357Mag can be loaded WAY heavier if needed. Where as the .357SIG really just shines with 125gr bullets.

I only see a need for a .40 when used for IPSC to make 'major'. What can a .40S&W do that a .45ACP can't do with less recoil in the same power factor? YMMV.



I'll buy that. Keep in mind I never said the .357 SIG had no more power than a 9x19. I was just pointing out the fact that they both make similiar sized holes and penetrate to roughly the same depth when tested in ballistic gel but the 9mm is capable of holding more rounds in a similiar sized handgun. I believe that the .357 SIG delivers more energy to the target but it's still not adequate to do any severe damage outside of its permanent crush cavity.

Personally I believe that the .40 has less felt recoil than the .45 ACP. Also you're right about IPSC shooting. The .40 is the best choice when shooting Limited or Limited 10 in my opinion if you want to make major. It offers faster shot recovery and increased magazine capacity to give you a slight edge over the guy shooting .45.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 8:51:15 AM EDT
I'll get the .40, .357 Sig seems like a waste and ammo is hard to get anyway. Thanks guys, I just wish these damn things were made in .45 a.c.p. and not g.a.p. and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 1:24:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gotm4:
My Glock 31 pushes an Air Marshal issue 125gr GoldDot at 1400fps. CorBon has a 125gr going 1425fps. Recoil isn't THAT hard to get used to, it has a VERY fast slide velocity. No more muzzle flip than my G17 shooting Win Value Pk but it does have more rearward recoil, I can't feel the difference between my G17 shooting military M882 vs my G31 with the 125gr GoldDot.

Saying a .357 SIG has no more power than a 9x19 is like saying a 10mm has no more power than a .40S&W. I mean both are .40"/10mm bullets and velocity doesn't matter right? (for those that don't know it the .40S&W was designed from the 10mm, this was after the FBI started downloading the 10mm to 950fps) if you like heavy and slow why not just carry a .45ACP? Why reinvent the wheel?

The .357SIG is doing what it was designed to do, which was to replicate what the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum was back in the day but do it in an auto pistol which a higher round count that a 6 shot only back then revolver. Of course the .357 Mag is a better all around cartridge than the .357SIG mainly because of cartridge capacity. So of course the .357Mag can be loaded WAY heavier if needed. Where as the .357SIG really just shines with 125gr bullets.

I only see a need for a .40 when used for IPSC to make 'major'. What can a .40S&W do that a .45ACP can't do with less recoil in the same power factor? YMMV.



Ah the great "power" myth...

Handgun rounds, all of them short of the .454 Casull and higher, lack the power to do significant remote damage. Handgun rounds only damage by destroying the tissue they contact directly. The .357 SIG in a good JHP produces IDENTICAL average total crush volume as does an equivalent 9mm JHP. Please read that again: They do IDENTICAL damage. To accomplish the identical terminal results, the .357 SIG costs you a good bit: Less capacity, higher ammo costs, more recoil, louder report, and problems with bullet setback.

To recap, no added terminal benefit over a good 9mm JHP, but at significant cost.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 4:08:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2005 4:08:49 PM EDT by Bob1984]
Here's a link to info on the .357 SIG: .357 SIG Info and I read something here suggests that .357 SIG did similar things to ballistic gelatin that full-house 10mm loads did, I don't know one way or the other if this is BS or not.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 5:14:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2005 5:17:01 PM EDT by gotm4]

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
Here's a link to info on the .357 SIG: .357 SIG Info and I read something here suggests that .357 SIG did similar things to ballistic gelatin that full-house 10mm loads did, I don't know one way or the other if this is BS or not.



But..but...but ...but this just can't be.

Actually that first website you linked is owned by a friend of mine. He's Todd Green presently the LE/Gov't sales rep for SIGARMS for the DC Metro area. Todd has been a big fan of the .357SIG before working for SIG so I don't hear some bullshit about he's just pushing SIGs cartridge. Actually he made a Beretta 96 Elite in a .357SIG when he worked for BeretttaUSA with the assistance of Tim Bacus. Tim Bacus rechambered a 92 Elite barrel to .357 and fitted it to the 96 Elite. Due to the type of action (delayed blowback) of the Beretta Todd had to use something like a 22lb recoil springs and the Heitt red buff. It would wear out a red buff in less than a thousand rounds.

Todd classified as a MASTER class shooter in IDPA using a .357SIG in a 226. But....but...but....it recoils to hard right? Lets just say some of us can walk the walk not just talk the talk.

Actually I just got back from the NRA Range in Fairfax where I met up with Todd and detail stripped his demo 229R DAK. I was wanting to know the exact internal differences in it. Todd volunteered his demo. So I stripped it down to a bare frame 3 times and reassembled it tonight. I'm certain I can smooth it WAY out and may be able to shorten the first reset a little.
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 5:26:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 7:45:54 PM EDT
Personally, I don't have a use for the .357 Sig. My needs are not your needs though now are they?

The .357 mag in 125 grain loading has forever been dubbed the king of handgun stopping power. This is based on the Marshall/Sanow studies, coming in at something like 96% one shot stops. Of course, the .45 in 230 Hydra-Shocks and 9mm 115 +P+ Cor-Bons both come in over 92% as well (94% if I remember correctly, but I've had a couple of gin and tonics tonight). No other .357 loading comes close in the M/S studies.

The thing about the M/S studies is that they are very hard to replicate in any ballistic gel tests. Shooting pigs doesn't seem to give much correlation either. The 125 Federal achieved nealy mythical status due to its 96% stop rating and the goal of the .357 Sig was an effort to replicate the ballistics of this single load, presuming that identical velocity with identical bullet weight will produce identical stopping power.

That may not be the case though. First, the M/S has been widely challenged. Even if the results have not been tainted by problems with Marshall's methodology, the load isn't exactly the same. The bulltes, while the same weight, are a different composition. Furthermore, no other inedpendant test can explain the 96% score. Other loads penetrate as deeply, expand as much and enter at similar velocities, but none matches it in Marshall's one shot stop stats. Because of that, there is no way to say that a .357 Sig will match the results of the .357 mag.

I'm not saying the .357 Sig is useless. Far from it. I'm intrigued by it. I will not buy one becuase I have different interests. I'm not arrogant enough to say that my choices are what other people should choose as well. It may or may not do what the .357 mag does and the .357 mag may or may not be the magic bullet. Who friggin cares?
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 8:18:55 PM EDT
You will love an XD. i shot one a month ago and now i have 3 of them with another coming in a week or so. I would get a .40 as the ammo is cheaper and more plintifull. .357Sig is a good round just more money to shoot. also i think a .40 is going to be here longer than we will be. I will say this since i got an XD i cant even look at a glock
Link Posted: 6/15/2005 8:22:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ManiacRat461:
I'll get the .40, .357 Sig seems like a waste and ammo is hard to get anyway. Thanks guys, I just wish these damn things were made in .45 a.c.p. and not g.a.p. and I wouldn't be having this conversation.



If they made an XD .45 ACP instead of the GAP i would buy two more rigtht now. GAP whats the reason for it anyway???
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 12:29:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kgpcr4:

If they made an XD .45 ACP instead of the GAP i would buy two more rigtht now. GAP whats the reason for it anyway???



I've shot two Glock .45GAPs at work. They're very much like shooting 180gr .40S&W. The only one that I'd really like to try would be Springfields smaller 1911 chambered in .45GAP. It should do well with people with small hands that have trouble with regular sized 1911s. Otherwise .45ACP can do everything the GAP can do but more more easily and at less chamber pressure. The GAP can be used in smaller framed pistols. Where .45ACP/10mm typically use larger frames.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 9:38:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gotm4:


Actually I just got back from the NRA Range in Fairfax where I met up with Todd and detail stripped his demo 229R DAK. I was wanting to know the exact internal differences in it. Todd volunteered his demo. So I stripped it down to a bare frame 3 times and reassembled it tonight. I'm certain I can smooth it WAY out and may be able to shorten the first reset a little.



He's carrying a 229R now? When I met him at an Awerbuck course, he was carrying a 226R DAK that Ernie Langdon had worked on. I can't believe he gave up something with a trigger pull that incredibly sweet.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 9:45:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By buzz_knox:

Originally Posted By gotm4:


Actually I just got back from the NRA Range in Fairfax where I met up with Todd and detail stripped his demo 229R DAK. I was wanting to know the exact internal differences in it. Todd volunteered his demo. So I stripped it down to a bare frame 3 times and reassembled it tonight. I'm certain I can smooth it WAY out and may be able to shorten the first reset a little.



He's carrying a 229R now? When I met him at an Awerbuck course, he was carrying a 226R DAK that Ernie Langdon had worked on. I can't believe he gave up something with a trigger pull that incredibly sweet.



He uses several SIGs. A 552 that I've fired!!! A 220ST, 226ST (.357), 229R DAK(9mm) 229R DAK(.357) and a 229R DAK(.40) The .40 was the first DAK that I fired that he had. I tore apart the 229R DAK 9mm last night, he was shooting the .357 one. He comes in my store from time to time as well, last week he came in and trained with the Air Marshalls that shoot at the funstore/range I work at every week.
Link Posted: 6/16/2005 10:37:43 AM EDT
Great round, especially through heavy clothing or auto glass, if published reports are accurate. I have never personally fired one. However, my next 1911 will probably be a 9x23.
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 12:41:42 AM EDT
I have a glock 31 in 357 sig(also have a 40 barrel), Another thing people tend to overlook about the 357 sig cartrage is the fact that you have a 9mm bulet feeding into a larger 40 cal casing chamber. From what ive read this gives more reliable feeding. Also A 357sig in its basic form gives the same performance of a 9mm+p+ with out the wear.
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 8:02:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:
Personally, I don't have a use for the .357 Sig. My needs are not your needs though now are they?

The .357 mag in 125 grain loading has forever been dubbed the king of handgun stopping power. This is based on the Marshall/Sanow studies, coming in at something like 96% one shot stops. Of course, the .45 in 230 Hydra-Shocks and 9mm 115 +P+ Cor-Bons both come in over 92% as well (94% if I remember correctly, but I've had a couple of gin and tonics tonight). No other .357 loading comes close in the M/S studies.

The thing about the M/S studies is that they are very hard to replicate in any ballistic gel tests. Shooting pigs doesn't seem to give much correlation either. The 125 Federal achieved nealy mythical status due to its 96% stop rating and the goal of the .357 Sig was an effort to replicate the ballistics of this single load, presuming that identical velocity with identical bullet weight will produce identical stopping power.

That may not be the case though. First, the M/S has been widely challenged. Even if the results have not been tainted by problems with Marshall's methodology, the load isn't exactly the same. The bulltes, while the same weight, are a different composition. Furthermore, no other inedpendant test can explain the 96% score. Other loads penetrate as deeply, expand as much and enter at similar velocities, but none matches it in Marshall's one shot stop stats. Because of that, there is no way to say that a .357 Sig will match the results of the .357 mag.

I'm not saying the .357 Sig is useless. Far from it. I'm intrigued by it. I will not buy one becuase I have different interests. I'm not arrogant enough to say that my choices are what other people should choose as well. It may or may not do what the .357 mag does and the .357 mag may or may not be the magic bullet. Who friggin cares?



Marshall and Sanow is pure junk science. They have been so thoroughly refuted it is not even funny.
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 9:09:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Marshall and Sanow is pure junk science. They have been so thoroughly refuted it is not even funny.



You're likely correct. Which is why I pointed out there there are serious methodology questions about the data. That is also why I have my doubts about the .357 Sig. That cartridge seems to have been developed with the intent of duplicating the top load in all the M/S tables, the 125 Federal. If the M/S study is as flawed as is suspected, then why duplicate the 125 load? Why not the 110 load or the 158 load?

I don't totally rule out the possiblity that the M/S figures are close to being correct in the real world. I have seen the stats against them and its compelling. Its compelling enough for me to say that chasing a specific load is probably not a good gamble and that is what Sig seems to have done.
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 2:27:07 PM EDT
Hmm, I hear that a lot about M/S's studies. Can anybody point me to any other data/theories that really refutes M/S or otherwise suggests a better model because in my searches, I come across either M/S or Fackler. How is M/S flawed ? I can see how Fackler could be because gelatin is not the same as human or animal tissue. Are there any other plausible theories that I'm missing ?
Link Posted: 6/17/2005 3:06:18 PM EDT
There are two basic problems with the M/S studies. The first is based on simple opinion. Some folks do not believe it is realistic to only consider 1 shot stops. To ignore all other stops means ignoring the fact that many officers are trained to the double tap. Two to the sternum means it wasn't a one shot stop.

The bigger problem is with the data itself. It keeps changing. If you compare the three studies they have come out with, you will notice that several shooting vanished from the logs. Which ones and why are not explained. There are also a few loads that would have to have a greater than 100% stopping power effectiveness for the data to be correct. Marshall has never explained this quirk in his data, leading some to claim he is a fraud.

Link Posted: 6/17/2005 3:28:53 PM EDT
Here is a link to a long description of the problems with the data.
Link Posted: 6/20/2005 4:08:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gotm4:

He uses several SIGs. A 552 that I've fired!!! A 220ST, 226ST (.357), 229R DAK(9mm) 229R DAK(.357) and a 229R DAK(.40) The .40 was the first DAK that I fired that he had. I tore apart the 229R DAK 9mm last night, he was shooting the .357 one. He comes in my store from time to time as well, last week he came in and trained with the Air Marshalls that shoot at the funstore/range I work at every week.



The 552 with every gadget under the sun? Yeah, I got to try that one as well. Since I didn't get to flip the magic switch and had to stay semi-auto, I found myself preferring my M4gery. It was lighter. ;)
Link Posted: 6/25/2005 11:18:02 AM EDT
Personaly, I own a Sig P229 in a .357sig. I also have the barrel that will allow me to shoot .40 S&W rounds. After shooting both through the gun repeatedly, I will take the .357sig hands down. Once you get use to it, you'll never touch a 9mm again. Thats just my wife's opinion though, and she couldnt be wrong.
Link Posted: 6/25/2005 11:33:10 AM EDT
I have 2 .357 Sigs - a 226 and a 239. I also have the .40 barrels for them.

The .357 seems more accurate in both, but maybe just because the ammo costs more I try harder . Currently I am carrying the 239 with 125 Gold Dots, so I must think it will work. Ballistic gel testing shows it to perform similar to +P 9mm loadings. There is no magic bullet, but knowing I can hit well and the gun is 100% reliable with it gives me confidence in the package.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 6:34:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:
I honestly have never understood the .357 SIG. It has the magazine capacity of a .40 but makes 9mm sized holes. It meets the minimum 12" penetration depth requirement like the 9mm but does so with additional recoil and decreased capacity. Hollow points expand to the same diameter as the 9mm as well. It doesn't produce enough energy to cause damage outside of its permanent crush cavity so I guess I don't understand what its purpose is.



Let me throw some more shit into this shit storm....

"The 125 gr. .357 Mag. semi-jacketed hollowpoint at 1,450 fps became a legendary manstopper. The .357 SIG auto pistol round was developed by Ted Rowe in hopes of duplicating that performance in a more modern gun package. The state troopers of Delaware, Virginia and Texas have all bought into the concept, as have many city and county police nationwide. So has the Secret Service. Shooting reports are trickling in, and so far, it's looking good.

In one Texas shootout, the older trooper's .45 slugs couldn't pierce the truck cab where the armed gunman held forth, but the younger trooper's .357 SIG rounds did, killing the opponent.

Virginia lawmen told me that the 125 gr. Gold Dot bullet from the .357 SIG hits at high velocity and stops in their tracks the pit bulls who used to absorb round after round of the over-hyped but under-powered 147 gr. subsonic 9mm JHP. Troopers described a couple of shootings where the .357 SIG proved so potent it instantly dropped human offenders with non-fatal hits.

Those who have .40 S&W caliber pistols can closely approximate .357 SIG ballistics with a bigger bullet by using the Pro-Load Tactical, Triton or Cor-Bon 135 gr. JHPs loaded to 1,300 fps. (While Pro-Load modestly lists their offering at 1,250 fps, chronograph tests show it surpassing 1,300 from service pistols.) The massive wound channels are comparable in width, and in roughly 10" depth, to the tried-and-true 125 gr. .357 cartridge. Both the 125 gr. .357 SIG and the 135 gr. full power .40 S&W kick distinctly less than the .357 revolver load, however."

-Masaad Ayoob, Guns Magazine
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 7:15:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:
I honestly have never understood the .357 SIG. It has the magazine capacity of a .40 but makes 9mm sized holes. It meets the minimum 12" penetration depth requirement like the 9mm but does so with additional recoil and decreased capacity. Hollow points expand to the same diameter as the 9mm as well. It doesn't produce enough energy to cause damage outside of its permanent crush cavity so I guess I don't understand what its purpose is.



Let me throw some more shit into this shit storm....

"The 125 gr. .357 Mag. semi-jacketed hollowpoint at 1,450 fps became a legendary manstopper. The .357 SIG auto pistol round was developed by Ted Rowe in hopes of duplicating that performance in a more modern gun package. The state troopers of Delaware, Virginia and Texas have all bought into the concept, as have many city and county police nationwide. So has the Secret Service. Shooting reports are trickling in, and so far, it's looking good.

In one Texas shootout, the older trooper's .45 slugs couldn't pierce the truck cab where the armed gunman held forth, but the younger trooper's .357 SIG rounds did, killing the opponent.

Virginia lawmen told me that the 125 gr. Gold Dot bullet from the .357 SIG hits at high velocity and stops in their tracks the pit bulls who used to absorb round after round of the over-hyped but under-powered 147 gr. subsonic 9mm JHP. Troopers described a couple of shootings where the .357 SIG proved so potent it instantly dropped human offenders with non-fatal hits.

Those who have .40 S&W caliber pistols can closely approximate .357 SIG ballistics with a bigger bullet by using the Pro-Load Tactical, Triton or Cor-Bon 135 gr. JHPs loaded to 1,300 fps. (While Pro-Load modestly lists their offering at 1,250 fps, chronograph tests show it surpassing 1,300 from service pistols.) The massive wound channels are comparable in width, and in roughly 10" depth, to the tried-and-true 125 gr. .357 cartridge. Both the 125 gr. .357 SIG and the 135 gr. full power .40 S&W kick distinctly less than the .357 revolver load, however."

-Masaad Ayoob, Guns Magazine



Gee, gun rag wound ballistics crap. How convincing. You will note a total lack of checkable FACTS in the above. No names of officers, no eyewitness names, etc. Just "take my words, these things work like the finger of doom."


Troopers described a couple of shootings where the .357 SIG proved so potent it instantly dropped human offenders with non-fatal hits.
Wow, apparently Ayoob has never heard of psychological stops. About 1/4 to 1/2 of all shooting vicitims stop their attack or fall down NO MATTER WHAT CALIBER IS USED. Does Ayoob have any data that shows the .357 SIG has a higher rate of psychological stops than does other rounds?

I also love how Ayoob pooh-poohs the 147 gr. 9mm round. I guess he never read Gene Wolberg's extensive study of over 100 actual shootings using this round, including autopsies, medical reports, police reports, eyewitness statements, etc. Wolberg's study found the 147 gr. load to be quite effective. And unlike Marshall and Sanow or Ayoob studies, Wolberg's study was published in a refereed scientific journal, and his data was made public to law enforcement personnel.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 7:19:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:
I honestly have never understood the .357 SIG. It has the magazine capacity of a .40 but makes 9mm sized holes. It meets the minimum 12" penetration depth requirement like the 9mm but does so with additional recoil and decreased capacity. Hollow points expand to the same diameter as the 9mm as well. It doesn't produce enough energy to cause damage outside of its permanent crush cavity so I guess I don't understand what its purpose is.



Let me throw some more shit into this shit storm....

"The 125 gr. .357 Mag. semi-jacketed hollowpoint at 1,450 fps became a legendary manstopper. The .357 SIG auto pistol round was developed by Ted Rowe in hopes of duplicating that performance in a more modern gun package. The state troopers of Delaware, Virginia and Texas have all bought into the concept, as have many city and county police nationwide. So has the Secret Service. Shooting reports are trickling in, and so far, it's looking good.

In one Texas shootout, the older trooper's .45 slugs couldn't pierce the truck cab where the armed gunman held forth, but the younger trooper's .357 SIG rounds did, killing the opponent.

Virginia lawmen told me that the 125 gr. Gold Dot bullet from the .357 SIG hits at high velocity and stops in their tracks the pit bulls who used to absorb round after round of the over-hyped but under-powered 147 gr. subsonic 9mm JHP. Troopers described a couple of shootings where the .357 SIG proved so potent it instantly dropped human offenders with non-fatal hits.

Those who have .40 S&W caliber pistols can closely approximate .357 SIG ballistics with a bigger bullet by using the Pro-Load Tactical, Triton or Cor-Bon 135 gr. JHPs loaded to 1,300 fps. (While Pro-Load modestly lists their offering at 1,250 fps, chronograph tests show it surpassing 1,300 from service pistols.) The massive wound channels are comparable in width, and in roughly 10" depth, to the tried-and-true 125 gr. .357 cartridge. Both the 125 gr. .357 SIG and the 135 gr. full power .40 S&W kick distinctly less than the .357 revolver load, however."

-Masaad Ayoob, Guns Magazine



Gee, gun rag wound ballistics crap. How convincing. You will note a total lack of checkable FACTS in the above. No names of officers, no eyewitness names, etc. Just "take my words, these things work like the finger of doom."


Troopers described a couple of shootings where the .357 SIG proved so potent it instantly dropped human offenders with non-fatal hits.
Wow, apparently Ayoob has never heard of psychological stops. About 1/4 to 1/2 of all shooting vicitims stop their attack or fall down NO MATTER WHAT CALIBER IS USED. Does Ayoob have any data that shows the .357 SIG has a higher rate of psychological stops than does other rounds?

I also love how Ayoob pooh-poohs the 147 gr. 9mm round. I guess he never read Gene Wolberg's extensive study of over 100 actual shootings using this round, including autopsies, medical reports, police reports, eyewitness statements, etc. Wolberg's study found the 147 gr. load to be quite effective. And unlike Marshall and Sanow or Ayoob studies, Wolberg's study was published in a refereed scientific journal, and his data was made public to law enforcement personnel.



Good job on a sarcastic, yet non-confrontational rebuttal. Personally, I could give less than a rat's ass what people think; the .357 Sig is a kick ass round, and you may quote me on that.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 7:23:54 AM EDT
My usual carry gun is a P239 in .357 Sig and it has performed flawlessly. Reliability
of both the round and the weapon have been perfect.

Only downside for me with the 239 is the .40 and .35 Sig magazines are not interchangeable
like they are in the full sized Sigs.

Link Posted: 7/19/2005 8:50:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2005 8:50:43 AM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Good job on a sarcastic, yet non-confrontational rebuttal. Personally, I could give less than a rat's ass what people think; the .357 Sig is a kick ass round, and you may quote me on that.



You are entitled to your opinion. The simple FACT (as demostrated by multiple replicable scientific tests) is the .357 SIG has terminal performance identical to that of good 9mm JHP loads. It has a slight edge over the 9mm in barrier penetration, but the 180 gr. .40 S&W load does better than the SIG in that area.

So you get as good non-barrier penetration in a 9, with higher capacity and less recoil, or BETTER barrier penetration with a .40, with the same capacity and less recoil. And the .357 SIG costs more than either of the other two rounds.

Shoot what you want, but try not to perpetuate marketing hype.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 9:03:51 AM EDT
.357 sig is a gimmick round and an answer to a question that was never asked.

However, I shoot it, reload it, and use it mainly to get the range cleared so I have it all to myself. It is loud and earplugs alone are not enough for it. One magazine, and everybody leaves. Priceless.
Link Posted: 7/19/2005 1:07:27 PM EDT
Well, thanks for the replies. I got the .40, if I want to mess around with the .357 I'll buy the barrel at a later date. The main influence was lack of ammo and price, it is practically impossible to get down here, versus .40 can be found anywhere. But, I do appreciate the response.
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 3:45:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:
I honestly have never understood the .357 SIG. It has the magazine capacity of a .40 but makes 9mm sized holes. It meets the minimum 12" penetration depth requirement like the 9mm but does so with additional recoil and decreased capacity. Hollow points expand to the same diameter as the 9mm as well. It doesn't produce enough energy to cause damage outside of its permanent crush cavity so I guess I don't understand what its purpose is.


It "imitates" the velocity of a 125 grain fired from a 357 magnum. More velocity=more energy. Same reason Uncle Sam switched to the 5.56 from the 7.62.
The 357 SIG also has deeper penetration abilities, like through autoglasss and such, making it more appealing to Highway Patrol units. My brother has one and loves it. I'm in the process of getting a 357 SIG barrel fitted to his Beretta 96.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 6:08:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Only downside for me with the 239 is the .40 and .35 Sig magazines are not interchangeable
like they are in the full sized Sigs.




Not to completely hijack the thread, but the .40 239 mags have proven 100% reliable with .357s for me and others over many, many rounds. You are right, t doesn't work the other way around though.
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 11:33:56 AM EDT
In the USPc you can fit 13 sig rounds in the 12 round .40 mags, so you have the same capacity as the USPc in 9mm. Same capacity, better round.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 2:15:36 PM EDT
Well, broke down and took the 357 SIG plunge last weekend. Went into a store with a Glock 23 in mind, and walked out with a like new Glock 31 with night sights and 3 mags for $410 out the door.
Couldn't pass it up, it looked like it might have had a mag or 2 fired thru it.
Walked out thinking "oh God, what have I done--now a different caliber mouth to feed".
Walmarts has WWB for $13.47 a box, not to bad, bought 2 boxes. Wondered if it was going to be just mediocre ammo like 9 & 40 WWB ball(accuracy wise). Found a box of WWB JHP at another store(way to much,$ 18 something) anyways, bought some just to try. Took it out today and am very impressed with the gun and the WWB. Now i'm thinking I need the 32 that was right next to it in the case---oh no!
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 2:59:50 PM EDT
I have a Sig P229 in .357SIG and am hands down satisfied with it.

Being that the .357/.40 factory Sig magazines I have will work with .40 S & W , I will eventually pick up a .40 barrel just cause.

In my opinion , my .357SIG with the CTC grips is a Sweet handfull that I can rely on without any doubt it will function properly and get the job done.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 3:17:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
My Glock 31 pushes an Air Marshal issue 125gr GoldDot at 1400fps. CorBon has a 125gr going 1425fps. Recoil isn't THAT hard to get used to, it has a VERY fast slide velocity. No more muzzle flip than my G17 shooting Win Value Pk but it does have more rearward recoil, I can't feel the difference between my G17 shooting military M882 vs my G31 with the 125gr GoldDot.

Saying a .357 SIG has no more power than a 9x19 is like saying a 10mm has no more power than a .40S&W. I mean both are .40"/10mm bullets and velocity doesn't matter right? (for those that don't know it the .40S&W was designed from the 10mm, this was after the FBI started downloading the 10mm to 950fps) if you like heavy and slow why not just carry a .45ACP? Why reinvent the wheel?

The .357SIG is doing what it was designed to do, which was to replicate what the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum was back in the day but do it in an auto pistol which a higher round count that a 6 shot only back then revolver. Of course the .357 Mag is a better all around cartridge than the .357SIG mainly because of cartridge capacity. So of course the .357Mag can be loaded WAY heavier if needed. Where as the .357SIG really just shines with 125gr bullets.

I only see a need for a .40 when used for IPSC to make 'major'. What can a .40S&W do that a .45ACP can't do with less recoil in the same power factor? YMMV.



I'll buy that. Keep in mind I never said the .357 SIG had no more power than a 9x19. I was just pointing out the fact that they both make similiar sized holes and penetrate to roughly the same depth when tested in ballistic gel but the 9mm is capable of holding more rounds in a similiar sized handgun. I believe that the .357 SIG delivers more energy to the target but it's still not adequate to do any severe damage outside of its permanent crush cavity.

Personally I believe that the .40 has less felt recoil than the .45 ACP. Also you're right about IPSC shooting. The .40 is the best choice when shooting Limited or Limited 10 in my opinion if you want to make major. It offers faster shot recovery and increased magazine capacity to give you a slight edge over the guy shooting .45.



Apply your above logic dictates to the 357 magnum versus the 38 special and let us know if you still stand by what you wrote.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:39:41 AM EDT
Same reason Uncle Sam switched to the 5.56 from the 7.62 was because it had more energy? Sir, put the crack pipe down and step away. Uncle same switched to the 5.56 for a number of reasons but that one never crossed his mind.

The best advise I can give all the Ballistic Gel Commandos is this, don't base everything that a bullet will and will not do on this test. If you were to simulate a hit in ballistic gel to a human it would be a bare skin hit on the stomach with the bullet not touching anything but flesh. Like shooting a fat guy in the stomach. Not a very good comparison.

In gel allot of ammo looks the same but that does nothing to determine the effectiveness of the round on a human or animal target. If you look at the human skeleton models that they have back in school you will see that most well placed shots will hit bone to get to organs. There we go a factor not discussed in the bullet performance in gel. WOW who would have thunk it.

Greater speeds in smaller bullets with good bullet design are what ammo company's do to make the same bullet more effective on living targets. .308 to .300win mag to .300 ultra mag and so on. All can shoot a 150gr bullet that is exactly the same but the difference in speed is where it is at.

The difference in heavy bullets is that when it hits bone it can still push through and keep destroying flesh and organ. Smaller lighter make up for this with better bullet design and greater velocity.

Saying a .357 sig is no more effective than a 9mm is like saying a .44mag has no advantage over a .44spl and a .357mag has no advantage over a .38spl. Let’s get real people.

Just because a handgun is not a 454 Casull does not mean that there are not better or worse ones under when it comes to damage and power so bad analogy.

Heard someone say "due to the skins elasticity the ME can't tell the difference between a 9mm and a 45 acp." Yea, ours can and so can I. Seen both wounds first hand. But hey, that comes from the don't forsake our 9mm club.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:49:06 AM EDT
Oh and on a different note, Double Tap ammo, 1450 FPS/584ft/lbs out a 4" barrel (Glock 32) and 1525fps out a Glock 31 4.5" barrel. Hornady .357Sig 147gr XTP HP 1225fps/490ft/lbs.

Winchester 9mm 127gr +p+ Ranger T HP out a 4" barrel (Glock 19) 1250fps/441ft/lbs, 9mm 147gr Ranger T HP out a 4" barrel 995fps/320ft/lbs. The Hornady 147 9mm is lower than that.

That my friends is the difference.


Link Posted: 8/2/2005 3:18:33 PM EDT
Regardless of whether or not the 357SIG is a gimmick round etc. I shoot 357SIG in my Glock 31 faster than and more accurately than my G17. Maybe it's the round, maybe it's the gun, maybe it's the shooter. YMMV.

I classified last month in IDPA shooting my G31 in ESP=enhanced service pistol shooting a 111.34, I made sharpshooter (missed Expert by 2.77 points, expert is 108.57 or lower).

In SSP=stock service pistol, I shot a 119.42 made Expert (barely made Expert which is 120.00 or lower) with my G17.

I'm no slouch with the G17, in fact I'm now a Master class shooter in GSSF. This year I've shot in 3 matches and won 2 cash prizes and 3 Glocks. I used a G26 to place 1st at Waldorf MD in AmSub (G26), and 1st in AmCiv and 1st in Competition (both with my G17) in Jackson NJ. I will soon classify in USPSA hopefully as a B class shooter, I don't care to sandbag it and make C class. I enjoy shooting with shooters who I know are capable of beating me.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:05:55 AM EDT
I've never understood these cartridge debates. The round that is most effective is the one that is delivered where you aim it when you need it.

I shoot a 9mm and a 40 because they are cheap enough for me to put a lot of rounds through it and keep my shooting sharp. The second reason I shoot a 9mm is that I know during any real world scenario I'm going to be pumped with adrenaline and I doubt I'll have the same kind of accuracy I enjoy at the range without stress. I want 17 rounds down and one in the pipe... I'd like to think the first two rounds will dot he job, but I want 16 more in case I find out I'm a putz under pressure. :P

Practice and skill will always count for more than minor variations in cartrige performance.



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