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Posted: 10/6/2007 11:34:28 AM EST
Brother is getting more involved in shooting (good thing). Has a Colt Combat Elite that he occasionally shoots, and was asking me what he should pickup for a .22 target gun.

Now--my experience with Target pistols is limited to the Ruger Mk 2s (had various bbl lengths/tapers at one point)--I was happy with them, but don't know enough of the other possibilities to give him good advice, so I thought I'd ask here.

Now:

Looking for (in his preference):
Accurate,
Cheap,
Reliable (not for defensive purposes--more so that when he shoots, he can shoot without worrying about misfeeds, ammo preferences, etc.).

(Also adding--my preference--relatively easy to mount Red Dot or low power optic on it--one of my old MK 2 had a grip-panel replacement scope mount, that was a blast to shoot with a cheap red-dot--vibrated like hell after each shot, but was still accurate).

Now, I would just normally advise the Ruger Mk 2 (Don't know enough about the Mk 3 to make a comment)--it seemed to meet the criteria, and mine (when I had them) were good with multiple kinds of ammo, and you could get mags for them at Wal-Mart.

HOWEVER--just looking for input to give him a fair recommendation.

I have seen and like the Sig Mosquito, and also there are good conversion kits for the 1911--but he wants more of a dedicated target style pistol for now (that being said, He will probably pick up a conversion kit for the 1911 sometime in the near future anyway).

Thanks for any thoughts?

Link Posted: 10/6/2007 11:35:45 AM EST
Browning BuckMark
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 11:39:20 AM EST

Browning Buckmark


OK, seen them, like the design--how do they shoot?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 11:40:52 AM EST
Anyone have experience with the new High Standards?

I had an old Supermatic that was very nice. Should have never sold it.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 1:12:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Anyone have experience with the new High Standards?

I had an old Supermatic that was very nice. Should have never sold it.



The new ones are nothing like the old ones.

I have a 1946 HD Military, it is an awesome shooter.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 1:15:44 PM EST
Older High Standards are reasonably priced.
Since he is a 1911 man, what about a Colt ACE?
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 1:18:13 PM EST
I would buy another Ruger MKII bull barrel target model if I ever lost the one I have.

Shoots better than I can, for over 20 years.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 1:48:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By u-baddog:
I would buy another Ruger MKII bull barrel target model if I ever lost the one I have.

Shoots better than I can, for over 20 years.


+1

I have the stainless Mark II w/ 5.5" bull barrel (the KMK-512, IIRC). For your brother, I would recommend either a 22/45 w/ the same barrel (5.5" bull) or one of the newer Mk III 22/45's . . . again with the same barrel.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:29:29 PM EST
I suppose I could do a search, but what is/are the difference(s) between the MK 2 and Mk 3?
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:50:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By AFARR:
I suppose I could do a search, but what is/are the difference(s) between the MK 2 and Mk 3?


AFAIK, the Mk III incorporates a magazine safety (prevents firing w/ the mag removed) and a key lock.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 3:03:10 PM EST
I've got a lot of 22 target pistols; most fail the "cheap" criteria listed in the original post, but if you can find one of the Mitchell Arms "High Standard" pistols you can get the ffeel of a HS Victor (which is a lot like a 1911 in terms of pointing and feel) for under $400. They usually run fine with the right ammo (HS sued for the HS name back from Mitchell, which pretty much terminated their production) and are drilled and tapped for scope mounts. My Mitchell Victor and Citation II get more use than my real HS guns of the same models.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 3:29:50 PM EST
I'd actually thought about the Trailside as a recommendation, but they aren't imported any longer, and I have no direct experience with them.

Thanks for the recommendations!
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 3:41:17 PM EST
My Mark II is the shit
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:13:11 AM EST
Accurate and relatively inexpensive? Smith & Wesson 22A in either 7 inch barrel or full target style model. My 7 shoots as good as any Mark II I have shot. I REALLY like Mark II's as well. The Smith is cheaper and comes with a full length top rail for sights. A tasco Pro Point and my Smith is good enough to hunt squirrel with! Got some real nice single ragged hole 25 yard groups off the bench as well.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:14:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Badass03:
My Mark II is the shit


When I get the money, I'd like to send in my Mark II for a Clark Custom Conversion.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:34:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By DavidC:
I've got a lot of 22 target pistols; most fail the "cheap" criteria listed in the original post, but if you can find one of the Mitchell Arms "High Standard" pistols you can get the ffeel of a HS Victor (which is a lot like a 1911 in terms of pointing and feel) for under $400. They usually run fine with the right ammo (HS sued for the HS name back from Mitchell, which pretty much terminated their production) and are drilled and tapped for scope mounts. My Mitchell Victor and Citation II get more use than my real HS guns of the same models.


I have a mitchell HS trophy also.have a ruger mk2 also. both are stock. the michell will shoot
rings around the ruger.if you can find one for a good price buy one.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 8:19:41 PM EST
Ruger (mk II or 22/45) or Browning Buckmark
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:01:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Older High Standards are reasonably priced.


Maybe where you live... but not generally.

I was really interested in one of a pair of Connecticut Supermatic Military pistols in a showcase at the new Cabela's here; until I saw the $799 price tags, with no extra magazine or accoutrements.

Same deal on the broker/auction forums. Their owners are quite proud of them. And properly so, in some instances.

I debated for some time on a new-production High Standard; also $700+. But I read enough negative comments from active BE shooters to change my mind.

I ended up getting a Marvel Unit #1 conversion for my RRA Hardball. I still want a High Standard 106 or equivalent; but every genuine Connecticut pistol I've looked at has either been in sad shape or larcenously priced.

To the OP... if you're willing to spend the money, there are several types of dedicated target pistol to tickle the fancy. If all you want is an accurate shooter, buy a Ruger and invest in a trigger job.

.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:50:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Loaded_For_Bear:
Browning BuckMark




+1

Aside from the S&W Model 41 or the much higher priced Anschutz (sp?) models, the Buckmark is THE way to go for a cheap .22 handgun.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:58:51 PM EST
I have a S&W Model 41 that I really like a lot.

Bill
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:36:32 PM EST
The question should be " What type of target shooting ".

General " Going to the range " to plink type target shooting you are fine with about any generic 22 with adj sights. S&W 22A, Buckmark, Neos, 22/45 etc etc..

If it is actual competitive type target shooting like Bullseye and standard pistol/postal league stuff than you want to get something better like a nice older 41, HS, Hammerli Trailside or Ruger MkII with upgrades....... or go big $ and buy a Walther, Hammerli, Benelli , Pardini etc etc ...
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:48:00 PM EST
Either Ruger MK II or Browning Buckmark. I own one of each and either one will probably shoot better than the average good pistol shot. Many Ruger MK II's are drilled and tapped for a scope mount. On the Buckmark you can replace the top strap (not it's real name, I'm sure) with a scope mounting base, and there are ones with an integral rear sight for when you take off the scope. Either one is a great choice
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:58:05 PM EST
Buckmark is my choice...this one here.



I have this model with a tasco red dot. The site hoods come right off as well as the brass deflector, which exposes the scope rail underneath. The trigger that comes with this model is much better than the ruger.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:10:57 PM EST
Uhhhh..he said CHEAP...
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:15:05 PM EST
I'm not sure where some of these other suggestions are coming from but the first two guns he should look at are the Ruger MKI/II/III series or the Browning Buckmark. Nothing else even comes close.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:28:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By toxic:
Uhhhh..he said CHEAP...


Reading is fundimental ! Oops


In that case get the S&W 22 . Cheap pot metal but it will go bang most of the time.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:31:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By gunnut284:
I'm not sure where some of these other suggestions are coming from but the first two guns he should look at are the Ruger MKI/II/III series or the Browning Buckmark. Nothing else even comes close.


While I have a MKII that I have shot for years I just picked up a MK III compitition target model for around 450 ish and I shoot that pistol far better then I ever shot my MK II it is a wonderful pistol, wish they would have kept the "European" style mag release though as the mag release does not function as a "drop free" release thus just adding another uneeded step. I can live with it is it is by ne means a home defense pistol.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:38:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 4:38:29 PM EST by PhilipPeake]
For a good target pistol, start with a Buckmark.

Then replace the barrel with one of these.

Next, lighten the trigger like this.

It will shoot better than most people can, and won't cost a fortune.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:40:41 PM EST
Feinwerkbau AW93
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:14:03 PM EST
I've owned a FWB--the 300s (Air Rifle) so I know how nice they can be.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

Cheap is RELATIVE--to me (and my Brother) it means good value for the money/not so expensive you are afraid to go out and shoot it.

In relative terms:

Looking for a $800 AR (not the cheapest, but a fair price for most shooters) vs. the $6000 HK Piston op. AR.

I tend towards the Mk II (from prior experience), but the I will also strongly advise him to look at the Buckmark.

A .22 top end for his 1911 is a good possibility as a SECOND .22 pistol. He wants separate firearms for now.

How good is the Ruger Mk2/45 (I believe that is the one with the .45 grip angle, correct?) trigger? Might make for a nice training gun if it is accurate and fun to shoot.

Accuracy is also relative--as has been mentioned, most .22s will likely shoot better than he will. He is not up to a Pardini, FWB, Anschutz, Walther, etc. level (and probably won't be--not interested enough to train to that level of dedication).

Thanks again!

AFARR
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:34:27 AM EST
Not had any experience with the Buckmarks. But I do not believe you could NEVER wear out a stainless Mark II. They are VERY well made. A pain in the ass to break down, but most will not do that often on those pistols. 22's are a great way to stay in practice and shoot A LOT of for very little!
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:12:09 AM EST
My Buckmark shoots much, much better than I can.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:34:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 10:36:59 AM EST by TrojanMan]
height=8
Originally Posted By SplatSTi:
Feinwerkbau AW93
www.pilkguns.com/fwbAW93.jpg


Best .22LR target semi-auto ever made, no question here.
I shot one for two years in intercollegiate and loved it. Fantastic firearm, absolutely perfect.

Well, except for the price. I'd own one if I could afford it but, alas, $2500 is out of my league.


I picked up a Ruger MKIII "Competition Target" instead. They put some nice features on that model including an extended barrel (still within competition regs, though), sights and grips among other features. $450 is in the ballpark of what I paid, too.

I like my Ruger but I like the older MKIIs better. If I had it to do over again I would have spent more time looking for a used MKII.

The MKIII incorporates a lot of new changes and not all of them are good. The magazine trigger block adds components to the trigger linkage and I think gives it a "gritty" pull. Yes, a gunsmith could work it out but you shouldn't have to do that. Plus, taking it to get worked on defeats the purpose of it being a cheap gun. I don't like the newer mag release and the mags themselves seem a little harder to insert and more wobbly when in place. The sights aren't that great, I would much prefer a wider rear plate than the narrow little "bowl" they give you.


Oh, and I don't care what the competition says you can use...
Scopes and dot sights are for wusses. Iron FTW.


EDIT: Oh, also... I absolutely do not like the .22/45s. Don't get me wrong, it's not the shape of the grip or the handling or even reliability or function (it is a Ruger, after all). I just think the polymer grip destroys the balance. The weight distribution is way off for what I think a target pistol should be.

The .22/45 is a plinker. Great gun if you're shooting squirrels and beer cans but not so great if you want to compete with it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 12:01:23 PM EST
I sell Rugers, love Buckmarks (better trigger and ergonomics), have TacSol stuff, am a competitive pistol shooter and STRONGLY advise this: The best deal in a .22 pistol is a used S&W M41. You can dump a bunch of money in a Mk2 or Buckmark and it will never be an M41. You can spend twice as much on a match pistol than a new M41 and it will shoot and handle maybe 10% better.

Try to get an older one with the cocking indicator at the back. There are plenty of extra barrels and grips available for them, you won't need to mess with any internals.

Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:29:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By PhilipPeake:
For a good target pistol, start with a Buckmark.

Then replace the barrel with one of these.




Based on how well my Buckmark shoots, I would be hard pressed to believe an aftermarket bbl would outshoot it.................
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:37:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
I sell Rugers, love Buckmarks (better trigger and ergonomics), have TacSol stuff, am a competitive pistol shooter and STRONGLY advise this: The best deal in a .22 pistol is a used S&W M41. You can dump a bunch of money in a Mk2 or Buckmark and it will never be an M41. You can spend twice as much on a match pistol than a new M41 and it will shoot and handle maybe 10% better.

Try to get an older one with the cocking indicator at the back. There are plenty of extra barrels and grips available for them, you won't need to mess with any internals.

www.hunt101.com/img/499416.jpg


Who makes the threaded barrel?
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:46:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By PhilipPeake:
For a good target pistol, start with a Buckmark.

Then replace the barrel with one of these.




Based on how well my Buckmark shoots, I would be hard pressed to believe an aftermarket bbl would outshoot it.................


Perhaps you need to read the reviews of these barrels?

Anyway, one reason it better is that its MUCH lighter, changes the whole feel/balance of the Buckmark.

I don't know anyone who has installed a Traillite barrel to go back to the original.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 1:53:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By DavidC:

Who makes the threaded barrel?


I did. The front sight on the older guns is soldered into a key slot, later guns have the front sight milled as part of the slide. Heat and remove the front sight, set up for shorteneing and threading in a 4-jaw, re-cut key slot, solder or glue front sight. I also drilled and tapped for a 10/22 scope base so it would fit a wide variety of commercially available bases, the old guns were not drilled.

The only .22 I own that shoots as good as this is a Marvel upper on dedicated frame; which would have been my second suggestion for the original poster if he already had a 1911 pistol. In fact, there are .22 kits for Glocks, CZs, Browning HPs as well.



Link Posted: 10/10/2007 2:40:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By PhilipPeake:
Perhaps you need to read the reviews of these barrels?


(shrug) Simply someone's opinion, no? Unless they put them in a Ransom Rest, I'm not sure there may be an end all-be all test........



Anyway, one reason it better is that its MUCH lighter, changes the whole feel/balance of the Buckmark.


There is a skinny bbl version of the Buckmark as well.

Not to mention that most target guns aren't too skinny in the bbl department. No doubt there's more than one way to skin a cat though, so I won't sit back & say a skinny bbl won't be better or not.



I don't know anyone who has installed a Traillite barrel to go back to the original.


I guess not after spending $$$ for the mod.

Seriously, all I can say is, I can shoot off of a rest & just wear out the 10x ring from 25-30 yards using el cheapo UMC .22 LR ammo. Now, if the aftermarket bbls can do better than that, then that's like buying a 300mph car instread of the 200mph one to drive on the interstate.
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