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Posted: 10/16/2004 1:51:57 PM EST
I'd like to know from the diverse group of opinions here, what your two choices would be-

1. A top quality handgun, and/or new caliber. Your best choice during a strong economy that can support it.

2. A current/past production handgun and caliber, where mass production includes outside
manufacturers re-tooling to begin producing large, cheap quantities of the chosen design, ala WW2.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:26:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 2:28:06 PM EST by dissipator556]
1.) not sure, I'll think about it some more- see #2
2.) Would love the USMC to adopt a .45 or 10mm pistol, but let's get real- we're stuck with 9mm if this scenario were to come true. Glock 17L or regular G17. It would give us a 2 round firepower increase, plus the needed reliability and longevity improvements over the M-9- not to mention the added help of having a rail to mount a light/laser attachment.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:32:53 PM EST
a high cap 1911, like a paraordinance p14
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:59:08 PM EST
sig 220
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:30:14 PM EST
The Glock was originally designed for military environments (Austrian Army) and would serve our military well.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:41:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 4:41:59 PM EST by icantdance]
I don't know about going cheap, first of all.

I like the 1911, Sig P220 or a Glock ... in .45 ACP

My second would be a revolver, say a .357 Mag. Probably a S&W 686+1 in a 4" or 2.5 inch format.

When considering a semi-auto, take a lot of mags, and make sure each one functions properly ... either Go or No Go. Remember, a semi-auto is as only good as its mags, and to a point, its ammo.

.45 and .357 should be availible in good quantities.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:39:31 PM EST
1. Expensive= Double stack para-ordnance would do nicely.
2.mass produced= (Glock 22) a very good cartridge with acceptable accuracy and good stopping power, also a nice happy medium between the 9mm and .45 auto. Stopping power and 15rds.+ of .40 would make me feel better equipped than a 9mm.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:45:26 AM EST
1 glock 18

2 glock 18

I think the military should adopt the glock 18. The reasons are obvious;

9mm for nato standard and ease of amo
standard 17 and 32 round mags all ready plentifull
multi purpose from room clearing auto fire to self defense single shot
fireing a m16 from a humvv was a pita. Give the drivers a glock 18 and spray gangsta style so they can concentrate on driving.
all soliders if not armed with a rifle have a pistol, force multiplier now instead of second line soliders with pistols they all now smgs.
cost, 18s can't cost much more then 17s. Didn't glock sell a crap ton of 17s to iraq for $300 a pop. I know bretta's m92 costs around $450 each = less cost per item then curent issue.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 3:30:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 3:37:43 AM EST by Agrippa]
If not the Glocks, what about CZ-75/85s? Even less expensive than Glocks, but in no way are they lesser quality, same manual of arms as the Beretta(nearly). Durable, reliable, and you can carry them C&L.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:13:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 6:16:27 AM EST by ED_P]

Originally Posted By Section_Leader:
1 glock 18



That's an interesting thought.

I'd thought of the Glock 17 for mass manufacture, as I've heard they're pretty inexpensive to
produce, but if the Glock 18 is indeed similiar in price, it would be a great option for going
into small rooms, or hastily aimed out of a vehicle at targets within a few feet.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:36:41 AM EST
I don't ever think you're going to see a select-fire pistol adopted for general issue- that would be an ammo conservation and efficiency concern. Personally, I would rather have staff NCOs and Officers issued a SMG and have EVERY swinging dick also issued a good reliable semi-auto pistol like the G17 or G22, in addition to their T/O weapon (usually an M16A/2/4 or M4). Of course, ammo should be interchangable between pistol and SMG, which means we would likely be stuck with 9mm.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:20:56 AM EST
What there are other guns other than a 1911 ? Never seen one !
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:35:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 8:36:57 AM EST by Combat_Diver]
One of the defining characterics has always been a manual safety on pistols. (the M11 Sig does have a manual decocker)(Glocks have neither from a US Army veiwpoint).

I can say that I'm turning my Beretta M9 back to the arms room later this week (course have to shoot all my ammo on the range here in Iraq). Got issued a M1911A1 (42' Colt frame , Remington-Rand slide) today from one of our battalions. By the way looks like SF will be going back to the .45 pistol for good shortly and turn in all the 9mms. Pistol has yet to be determined.

CD
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 10:35:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 10:59:38 AM EST
1. Glock 17

2. Glock 17
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:02:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lee0302:
The Glock was originally designed for military environments (Austrian Army) and would serve our military well.



Except that its a very unnatural grip angle, and Gaston Glock won't agree with the militaries contractual requirements for a service arm. He had a chacne to compete with the P226 and 92F but didn't.

I would like to see the service pick up a high cap Para style 10mm with full power loads.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:04:47 AM EST
Glock, top quality? In whos fantasy world?!?! They are the epitome of a mass produced quick and dirty handgun.

USP and a single stack USP to go with it in 10mm would be ideal, to my mind.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:05:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 11:06:17 AM EST by DigDug]
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:07:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:11:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
One of the defining characterics has always been a manual safety on pistols. (the M11 Sig does have a manual decocker)(Glocks have neither from a US Army veiwpoint).

I can say that I'm turning my Beretta M9 back to the arms room later this week (course have to shoot all my ammo on the range here in Iraq). Got issued a M1911A1 (42' Colt frame , Remington-Rand slide) today from one of our battalions. By the way looks like SF will be going back to the .45 pistol for good shortly and turn in all the 9mms. Pistol has yet to be determined.

CD



Good news. I would prefer 10mm but .45 is next best. What is your opinion of the USP 45? I hear (unconfirmed) that the USP45 Tactical has found favor with NSW guys tired of the bulk of the Mk 23.

Other than the 1911 or USP45, I cann think of few pistols in .45 that would be worth owning. Most seem to be 9mm with the dimensions tweaked.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:16:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:17:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Lee0302:
The Glock was originally designed for military environments (Austrian Army) and would serve our military well.



Except that its a very unnatural grip angle, and Gaston Glock won't agree with the militaries contractual requirements for a service arm. He had a chacne to compete with the P226 and 92F but didn't.

I would like to see the service pick up a high cap Para style 10mm with full power loads.



Like anyone would be able to shoot them accurately.



Not hard. The wide body Para is very easy to control. When I was 14 I shot a P14-45 with no complaints about recoil at all. Or size, for that matter. With a Wilson beavertail and flat mainspring housing, it would be very easy to control. Remember, for 80 years the M1911A1 was considered viable even in the hands of relatively inexperienced shooters. Certaily with the ergonomic inprovements of the last few years, and the increased mass and bearing surface of the widebody, it would be no more difficult than the M1911A1 to control. The most difficult autoloading handgun to control that I ever shot was the Desert Eagle .44. Followed by a series 70 Commander with no erg improvements. That was a handful. The Para with 230gr hardball is a pussycat compared to the commander.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:22:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 11:31:31 AM EST
which is less useful tits on Boar Hog or a Glock G18......... Hmm Id say G-18
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 12:10:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Section_Leader:
1 glock 18

2 glock 18

I think the military should adopt the glock 18. The reasons are obvious;

9mm for nato standard and ease of amo
standard 17 and 32 round mags all ready plentifull
multi purpose from room clearing auto fire to self defense single shot
fireing a m16 from a humvv was a pita. Give the drivers a glock 18 and spray gangsta style so they can concentrate on driving.
all soliders if not armed with a rifle have a pistol, force multiplier now instead of second line soliders with pistols they all now smgs.
cost, 18s can't cost much more then 17s. Didn't glock sell a crap ton of 17s to iraq for $300 a pop. I know bretta's m92 costs around $450 each = less cost per item then curent issue.



A Glock 18 costs $542 for LEO's right now. Real ones from Glock. A massive order would be under $500 easy. Just food for thought.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 12:12:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 12:14:35 PM EST
Machine pistols are great for tearing holes into open air real fast... the only problem is the holes refill themselves just as fast
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 12:54:50 PM EST
I doubt that the Glock 18 would ever be considered for anything other than maybe special tactical teams for room clearing and such like Delta or other special forces.

Look what they did to the M-16, what is with this 3 round burst bullshit? All M-16's should have semi, 3 round, and full auto like some mp-5's and others I have seen.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:29:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 10:29:08 AM EST
yeah. 10mm. "hey, pfc lynch. how did that front sight get lodged in your forehead?"

funny, nobody said "hey, let's keep the 92f! it's great!"

anything we give our guys, and SMALL WOMEN, will be an improvement.

in a perfect world, i'd like to see the good guys issued glock 22s
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:05:01 PM EST
1.Decent 1911

2.Glock in .45 GAP
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:15:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
One of the defining characterics has always been a manual safety on pistols. (the M11 Sig does have a manual decocker)(Glocks have neither from a US Army veiwpoint).

I can say that I'm turning my Beretta M9 back to the arms room later this week (course have to shoot all my ammo on the range here in Iraq). Got issued a M1911A1 (42' Colt frame , Remington-Rand slide) today from one of our battalions. By the way looks like SF will be going back to the .45 pistol for good shortly and turn in all the 9mms. Pistol has yet to be determined.

CD



My money is on Kimber, just like the USMC(well a small part of them, the SOCOM group whatever they are called Idon't know.) It was in one of the last couple American rifleman issues.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 10:51:20 PM EST
Best all-around pistols ever made:

1911
Glock 17/19

No TDA bullsh*t. Simple, effective, ergonomic and reliable.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:02:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:24:24 AM EST by photoman]
Ok I know it's probably a strech and some of you may think me crazy, but if they want to stick with a 9mm, ditch the 92fs for the Baby Eagle, it's cheaper $$ wise but a much better gun than the 92fs. I have both, I've had lots of people try both and without a doubt people like the baby eagle better, especially people with smaller hands. The grip is better, the gun is more accurate, it feeds dirty, it runs dirty. The frame is basicly an EAA/CZ frame. It's a DA/SA pistol so if you drop the hammer and get a click, you can pull the trigger again(that there double strike capability somone mentioned.) 16rd mags, eats HP or hardball, will run with a weak recoil spring(mine is worn enough I should put a new one on it), but it still runs like a champ. Also you can get them with a polymer frame with light rail if they decide they want one with a light rail for tac lights. Go ahead and flame away if you want, I'm used to getting shit for using a Baby Eagle, but it has never once let me down.
If you've never shot a Baby Eagle don't knock it till you do cuz it's a sweet gun. It's hands down better than the Beretta 92FS.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 7:15:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 7:17:41 AM EST by ken_mays]
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 7:25:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By ken_mays:

Originally Posted By photoman:
Go ahead and flame away if you want, I'm used to getting shit for using a Baby Eagle, but it has never once let me down. If you've never shot a Baby Eagle don't knock it till you do cuz it's a sweet gun. It's hands down better than the Beretta 92FS.



Good luck getting parts for that Baby Eagle. MRI gave me the runaround when I tried getting a replacement firing pin for mine. I ended up making one myself.

Apart from the firing pin breaking, it was an OK gun, but heavy. Not very easy to get a grip on the slide for manipulation, especially with that decocker where it is.

I have to say I prefer the Berettas. I have a 96 Compact that's lighter, more accurate, easier to shoot, and better made than the Baby Eagle I had. Mags were also easy to find, something I couldn't say about the BE.

The 92FS is a little big for what it is but it is also a fine gun. It could use some improvements, namely in accuracy, but I do like how easy it was to lighten the trigger pull.



Fireing pin should be the same as the EAA witness 9mm fireing pin(trying to get a definative on that right now). Also I have no problems manipulating my slide, just wish it had some checkering up front. Also I don't know which version you have, but my safety is my de-cocker. Never a problem with it. Also Meprolite and.... damn who is the other one, anyway you can also get night sites for it. As far as the weight, loaded it's a tad bit heavier than the beretta 92 when loaded, but not much at all. Baby eagle 16rd mags, easy as going to CDNN, plus the full size Baby Eagle will also use the EAA witness 9mm fullsize mags. I run two of those in my Baby Eagle right now, no hic-ups at all. Way more reliable and more accurate than the beretta 92, no good comparing it to a 96 compact apples and oranges. Compared to the 92 the Baby Eagle is better IMO.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:02:21 AM EST
Ruger KP89 for full size and KP93 for compact. Built like a tank, will feed and fire just about anything(including lead bullets, let's see your Glock do that.) and is made in the good ol' U.S.A. Also, I'd bet that unit cost would be a lot less then anything else on the market.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:24:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:48:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By ken_mays:

Originally Posted By photoman:
Way more reliable and more accurate than the beretta 92, no good comparing it to a 96 compact apples and oranges. Compared to the 92 the Baby Eagle is better IMO.



Well, I had a Baby Eagle compact in .40, so it's apples to apples for me.

I will say the BE had a better than average DA trigger, better out of the box than a 92FS. But I can't impugn the 92's reliability; I have complaints about the Beretta but it has never choked on anything that I can remember. Then again I only used Beretta mags for it.



Ok that makes more sence to me than comparison wise. the two beretta 92's I have the most experiance are not reliable, well not as reliable as the baby eagle is I've had more problems with FTE's and such with the beretta than I've ever had with the baby eagle, infact the last one I had with the baby eagle was because i let to much crd build up behind the extractor. Cleaned that out and it's been no problems since.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:59:04 AM EST
I've been thinking that the idea of a PDW makes a lot of sense. The new HK MP7 is small and light enough to be carried on a thigh holster and employed as a handgun. It can also do duty as a sub-gun and even as a short range assault rifle.

Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:02:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Lee0302:
The Glock was originally designed for military environments (Austrian Army) and would serve our military well.



Except that its a very unnatural grip angle, and Gaston Glock won't agree with the militaries contractual requirements for a service arm. He had a chacne to compete with the P226 and 92F but didn't.

I would like to see the service pick up a high cap Para style 10mm with full power loads.



Like anyone would be able to shoot them accurately.



Not hard. The wide body Para is very easy to control. When I was 14 I shot a P14-45 with no complaints about recoil at all. Or size, for that matter. With a Wilson beavertail and flat mainspring housing, it would be very easy to control. Remember, for 80 years the M1911A1 was considered viable even in the hands of relatively inexperienced shooters. Certaily with the ergonomic inprovements of the last few years, and the increased mass and bearing surface of the widebody, it would be no more difficult than the M1911A1 to control. The most difficult autoloading handgun to control that I ever shot was the Desert Eagle .44. Followed by a series 70 Commander with no erg improvements. That was a handful. The Para with 230gr hardball is a pussycat compared to the commander.



The quoted text states 10mm full power loads. That is not .45.



I'm aware, but with a beavertail and flat mainspring housing the 10mm would be as controllable as the .45 was.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:05:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ruger KP89 for full size and KP93 for compact. Built like a tank, will feed and fire just about anything(including lead bullets, let's see your Glock do that.) and is made in the good ol' U.S.A. Also, I'd bet that unit cost would be a lot less then anything else on the market.



The Ruger! The infamous 2x4 that shoots patterns of 9mm bullets!?!?
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:13:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

The Ruger! The infamous 2x4 that shoots patterns of 9mm bullets!?!?






hey cliffy,

that mp7 might be the coolest thing i've ever seen.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:14:21 AM EST
I am also hearing about a lot of units going back to old slabside. I'm wearing a Glock 27, but as soon as it cools off I'm going back to my 1911. I took a tactical rifle course at the local AFB, and their M9s sucked bigtime. Lots of FTFs and other issues mostly magazine related. I think putting the 1911 back in service makes a lot of sense. They just need to quality mfr who will stand by their product.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:37:40 AM EST
1911 or G17
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:57:40 AM EST
No stupid slide mounted controls next time!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:01:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ruger KP89 for full size and KP93 for compact. Built like a tank, will feed and fire just about anything(including lead bullets, let's see your Glock do that.) and is made in the good ol' U.S.A. Also, I'd bet that unit cost would be a lot less then anything else on the market.



The Ruger! The infamous 2x4 that shoots patterns of 9mm bullets!?!?



Gee, I've never heard of a Ruger "2x4" having a slide failure even with hot +p+ loads. There's got to be something said for a pistol that just plain works and keeps on working no matter what. As for "patterns of 9mm bullets" I've never seen much difference in my groups with any pistol, Ruger, Sig, 1911a1, Smith, whatever you care to shoot. I'm not a compitition shooter so I'm not in the habit of cutting the "X" ring out of a target with a pistol at 25M but then again I'm not an amature either. I guess if I was a better shot I'd see the difference but, like the average solider, I'm just a normal shot so the Ruger shoots ok by me.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:03:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
No stupid slide mounted controls next time!



Amen! I wouldn't ever buy a pistol with them. I hate them. The military shouldn't have them either.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:06:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Ruger KP89 for full size and KP93 for compact. Built like a tank, will feed and fire just about anything(including lead bullets, let's see your Glock do that.) and is made in the good ol' U.S.A. Also, I'd bet that unit cost would be a lot less then anything else on the market.



The Ruger! The infamous 2x4 that shoots patterns of 9mm bullets!?!?



Gee, I've never heard of a Ruger "2x4" having a slide failure even with hot +p+ loads. There's got to be something said for a pistol that just plain works and keeps on working no matter what. As for "patterns of 9mm bullets" I've never seen much difference in my groups with any pistol, Ruger, Sig, 1911a1, Smith, whatever you care to shoot. I'm not a compitition shooter so I'm not in the habit of cutting the "X" ring out of a target with a pistol at 25M but then again I'm not an amature either. I guess if I was a better shot I'd see the difference but, like the average solider, I'm just a normal shot so the Ruger shoots ok by me.



Fair enough. Gotta give it to old man Ruger, he may have been a sellout, but his shit LASTS. Tough stuff. That said, I think the ergs on his centerrfire autos suck, and his companies policies suck, esp. now that their chief counsel took over and put even more crap on their guns to reduce their liability. I think I draw the line when I see a .22 LR pistol with safety notices stamped on the side.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:32:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Fair enough. Gotta give it to old man Ruger, he may have been a sellout, but his shit LASTS. Tough stuff. That said, I think the ergs on his centerrfire autos suck, and his companies policies suck, esp. now that their chief counsel took over and put even more crap on their guns to reduce their liability. I think I draw the line when I see a .22 LR pistol with safety notices stamped on the side.



I don't like that stupid "safety" warning either and I don't like the fact that you can't by 20 or 30 rnd. factory mags for a Mini-14 but like you said, the guns last, the price is good. I just picked up two Ruger semis, a KP89 with the standard safety/decock(not crazy about it, would have preffered just a decock.) and a KP93DAO. The 93 is one sweet pistol. The guy that I bought it from put a 1lb lighter main spring in it and slicked up the action, man it's smooth and nothing on the slide to mess with, very sweet. Now to find a nice, used SP101/3" in 9mm for my wife, she likes revolvers and since I'm going Ruger for my pistols I'll have to pick her up one of the SP101's.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:34:43 PM EST
SP101 is nice, my buddy has one I'll probably end up with.
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