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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/3/2005 4:47:38 PM EDT
How is this cartridge against bare gelatin and the other tests?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 11:26:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 3:34:34 PM EDT
From what I have gathered, it does NOT pass the min 12"-13" penetration requirements in bare gelatin. While it expands quite nicely it doesn't penetrate as much as the heavier grain 9mm JHP.

I ended up holding onto the 115 gr JHP that I bought and bought more 147 gr JHP.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:33:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 6:46:28 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:24:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 3:25:02 AM EDT by metroplex]
Just zero with the 147 gr JHP. It's not that expensive. 124 gr FMJ (NATO) is close to the price of the 147 gr JHP white box. I don't have a pistol caliber carbine, but I was planning to just plink with 115 gr FMJ and load it with 147 gr JHP for defense.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:02:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 12:13:38 PM EDT
You can't use 115 gr FMJ for plinking? It'd be cheaper (by 6 cents or so per round) than using 124 gr FMJ. Check out CCI Blazer or Winchester white box at a local Academy or Walmart.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:55:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 9:07:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
115 does not shoot to the same point of aim as 147, especially at longer ranges. 124 does not either, but is closer than 115.

I like my practice to be commensurate with the gun's intended use.



What ranges do you plan to shoot in its intended use? 100yd? 200yd?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 2:23:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 11:57:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
75 yards max. perhaps 100 in an extreme circumstance.

mainly from 25 to 60 yards, as an intermediate carbine between handgun rand true rifle range.



The difference will not me enough to matter. zero with 147, practice with whatever.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:06:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 4:07:15 PM EDT by VBC]
Back to the discussion, the classic Federal 115 grain JHP has been a workhorse for the last 25 years and has a very proven record on the street.

The Winchester White Box 115 grain "personal defense" is the same JHP design as the classic Federal, BUT loaded just a little hotter than the Federal.

I use it in my Kahr PM9 because I worry that little 3" barrel won't get heavier bullets moving fast enough to reliably expand.


Gelatin schmelatin. The real proof is in actual shootings.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:13:07 AM EDT
How about the Winchester 147 gr JHP? I understand it isn't Speer Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger T, but it's also less expensive to shoot.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:04:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
How about the Winchester 147 gr JHP? I understand it isn't Speer Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger T, but it's also less expensive to shoot.



I believe it is identical to the old 147s (Olin Super Match Type-L bullet) that had such a bad reputation for not expanding and overpenetrating. There is some discussion on about it on THIS THREAD at GLOCKtalk. I've seen several people speak well of WWB 147gr JHPs after doing their own back yard testing, but I'm not convinced it's a good choice for self-defense. <shrug>
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 2:09:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:01:09 PM EDT
older 147's had the problem of underexpansion and overpenetration. They are not the top performers that modern 147 grain rangers are
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:29:57 PM EDT
I think what is really important is:

If you used 147 gr JHP Winchester White box cartridges in a righteous self-defense shooting, would anyone find fault in what cartridge you used? It's not FMJ so the DA/prosecutor can't quite use the FMJ/JHP argument.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:56:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I think what is really important is:

If you used 147 gr JHP Winchester White box cartridges in a righteous self-defense shooting, would anyone find fault in what cartridge you used? It's not FMJ so the DA/prosecutor can't quite use the FMJ/JHP argument.




I don't follow.

A good shoot is a good shoot, period. I hear lots of speculative talk about malicious DAs going after people for using this ammo or that ammo but I have yet to see anything substantive or convincing.

What's the "FMJ/JHP argument"?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:58:57 PM EDT
That in court, using cheap FMJ ammo as self-defense ammo is a no-no.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:16:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
That in court, using cheap FMJ ammo as self-defense ammo is a no-no.



I realize FMJ is a bad choice for SD, but assuming no inocent bystanders get hurt from overpenatrating bullets, why is it bad from a legal standpoint to use FMJ?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:43:07 PM EDT
le legal argument is BS. If you use FMJ you "put the public at risk" if you use JHP you "used ammo so deadly it is banned by the geneva convention"

A scumbag attorney can twist an argument anyway he feels. It doesn't mean he's right.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 3:04:45 AM EDT
JHP is not banned by the Geneva Convention. It is banned by the Hague Convention which the US never officially signed. JHP is authorized for use against terrorists though, by the US Military. They just cannot use it against uniformed combatants or civilians.

What about using the gun to knock the bad guy unconcious?
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 11:37:56 AM EDT
either way you get the point. It's a no win, so use the most effective round available.
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